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[Nozybidaj]

General Stubbs wrote...

I guess I am just biased about TIM because he lied to us about Liara (that jackass).
Anyway.
Yeah, there are definitely major parts of information missing. That is one thing we can be certain of.

There is most likey another person or organization that has yet to be introduced into the mix, it could explain why certain actions were taken and how Liara is protected.

If the SB wants someone dead then they are dead. There is almost no one in the galaxy that could save you from the SB. I don't think Cerberus protection could save you, they may be powerful, but the SB has been around for a very, very long time.
If there is another player involved, it may explain her protection and how Liara got her information business started.
Maybe she is the "front man" (or I guess front woman) for the information business because she owes the unknown who is protecting her.

I never saw the SB as this supreme ruler of a large criminal empire who snaps his fingers and people disappear.

The impressions from ME1 make him out more like a trumped up day-trader.  Trading this secret for that, never favoring one side or the other.  I never got this sense that had this vast and shadowy underworld like he was Mass Effect's version of Kingpin or something.

Maybe in the comics and other media they've changed and "amped up" who the SB is, I dunno.  But buying Shep from a merc band to sell it to someone else doesn't entirely strike me as someone who is all powerful in the galaxy.

I guess that is another part of why everything feels off to me.  Just as Liara's transformation was all done "off stage" so was the SB's.  Nothing makes any sense when you compare where all these players are now (Liara, Cerberus, SB) with where they were in ME1.  Too much of it is hidden and held back for it all to feel real.

If this is all supposed to have some far reaching consequences into expansions and beyond into ME3 they have done a very very poor job of making all these changes believable and concrete.  It's all just glossed over like the writers just expect us to accept it at the drop of a hat without putting any thought into it at all.

[AndroLeonidas]

I don't think we will ever find out unfortunately. Bioware has a nasty habit of leaving things hanging. I love Liara and I can hardly bring myself to play ME2 anymore because of how they fooked up her character.



I just have this uneasy feeling that after the comics... Bioware is done with trying to explain anything concerning Liara. I know... it's not a very good mentality to have... but given what they have done it's hard to have faith they will bring closure to her story, as much as it burns me to say that.



Now... on the other hand... there is some merit in the idea that she has been told by Cerberus in some fashion to remain away from Shepard and they would help her get her vengence. Especially if they are lovers. I can't really see her holding a grudge as she does, especially if she knows Shepard will be a live. She gave his body to them yes, but she knows what they are planning at least in some fashion, and she knows he will be alive. She actually contradicts herself in the dialogue with you if you follow it closely. It just seems they really tried to make her unattractive and screwed things up even with that. Ok... enough of my mindless ramble.

[Sharn01]

@Driven & Jaysel



I think you guys should at least look up the book's and other litarature regarding Cerberus if not read them. TIM is definately one of the most evil people portrayed in almost any medium. Cerberus has done some incredibly nasty thing's, though not everyone in their employ is aware of it.



I just cant see how an organization that is willing to kill million's of people in an attempt to get a couple dozen biotic birth's can ever be considered good by any stretch of the imaginaiton.

[Driveninhifi]

Nozybidaj wrote...
I never saw the SB as this supreme ruler of a large criminal empire who snaps his fingers and people disappear.

The impressions from ME1 make him out more like a trumped up day-trader.  Trading this secret for that, never favoring one side or the other.  I never got this sense that had this vast and shadowy underworld like he was Mass Effect's version of Kingpin or something.

Well, at the beginning of ME1, doesn't the Shadow Broker hire Wrex to kill Fist for betraying him? He always came across as someone you didn't want to mess with, or bad things would happen to you. Several people are super surprised Fist would betray the Shadow Broker - they're all kind of amazed and wonder how much Saren is paying, etc.
He plays all sides against each other, because it's in his best interest to force them to keep buying info - sort of like forcing them into an informational arms race where he's the only dealer.

Someone must have kept Liara alive at the beginning - or she'd have an army of bounty hunters after her. If the Shadow Broker hired someone as tough as Wrex to handle a wimp like Fist, I'd think he'd hire some really nasty people to retaliate against someone who messed up a big business deal like selling Shepard's body. Really, he'd just need to put a big bounty out on her in general - where would she go?

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...
I never saw the SB as this supreme ruler of a large criminal empire who snaps his fingers and people disappear.

The impressions from ME1 make him out more like a trumped up day-trader.  Trading this secret for that, never favoring one side or the other.  I never got this sense that had this vast and shadowy underworld like he was Mass Effect's version of Kingpin or something.

Well, at the beginning of ME1, doesn't the Shadow Broker hire Wrex to kill Fist for betraying him? He always came across as someone you didn't want to mess with, or bad things would happen to you. Several people are super surprised Fist would betray the Shadow Broker - they're all kind of amazed and wonder how much Saren is paying, etc.
He plays all sides against each other, because it's in his best interest to force them to keep buying info - sort of like forcing them into an informational arms race where he's the only dealer.

Someone must have kept Liara alive at the beginning - or she'd have an army of bounty hunters after her. If the Shadow Broker hired someone as tough as Wrex to handle a wimp like Fist, I'd think he'd hire some really nasty people to retaliate against someone who messed up a big business deal like selling Shepard's body. Really, he'd just need to put a big bounty out on her in general - where would she go?

Hrmm, you have a good point.

[Driveninhifi]

Sharn01 wrote...

@Driven & Jaysel

I think you guys should at least look up the book's and other litarature regarding Cerberus if not read them. TIM is definately one of the most evil people portrayed in almost any medium. Cerberus has done some incredibly nasty thing's, though not everyone in their employ is aware of it.

I just cant see how an organization that is willing to kill million's of people in an attempt to get a couple dozen biotic birth's can ever be considered good by any stretch of the imaginaiton.

Oh yeah, I think TIM is a manipulative evil jerk for sure. He'll do whatever he wants to achieve his goals. I just mean to say that I think he'd have no qualms about hiring aliens if he thought they'd be useful. And no qualms about getting them killed. I mean, he certainly doesn't hesitate to send Shepard, whom he spent billions on, into multiple traps. So if he thought Feron would be a useful undercover agent keeping an eye on the Shadow Broker, he wouldn't think twice.

[AndroLeonidas]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...
I never saw the SB as this supreme ruler of a large criminal empire who snaps his fingers and people disappear.

The impressions from ME1 make him out more like a trumped up day-trader.  Trading this secret for that, never favoring one side or the other.  I never got this sense that had this vast and shadowy underworld like he was Mass Effect's version of Kingpin or something.

Well, at the beginning of ME1, doesn't the Shadow Broker hire Wrex to kill Fist for betraying him? He always came across as someone you didn't want to mess with, or bad things would happen to you. Several people are super surprised Fist would betray the Shadow Broker - they're all kind of amazed and wonder how much Saren is paying, etc.
He plays all sides against each other, because it's in his best interest to force them to keep buying info - sort of like forcing them into an informational arms race where he's the only dealer.

Someone must have kept Liara alive at the beginning - or she'd have an army of bounty hunters after her. If the Shadow Broker hired someone as tough as Wrex to handle a wimp like Fist, I'd think he'd hire some really nasty people to retaliate against someone who messed up a big business deal like selling Shepard's body. Really, he'd just need to put a big bounty out on her in general - where would she go?

Hrmm, you have a good point.

Yeah this is a good point. Which leads us to the next question... who is listening to her on Illum. She states quite clearly she plans to kill the SB. As the above person just said... why would he not just whack her? TIM tells you she is working for the SB which is an outright lie... not to mention he almost got you killed on the Collector ship and he lied a few more times in the game. Is the SB that scared of Cerberus that he would not come after Liara knowing she was gunning for him? Makes you wonder who is she actually working for that is keeping him from going after her. It may be Cerberus... or it may be someone we haven't seen yet. Issue 4 should tell us... I hope.

[bjdbwea]

TIM isn't portrayed as anti alien, but like pro human. That is a very big difference. The SB wasn't portrayed as evil either in ME 1. He simply traded secrets and made money with it, though being careful enough not to shift the balance. That said, both would certainly not shy away from trying to remove anyone who threatens their position.

It is indeed laughable that Liara would fear being under surveillance, and yet openly speak about hunting down the SB. But since to me it's obvious that her whole part in the game was hacked apart, and just some pieces of the puzzle thrown back in, it is no surprise that things don't make sense. I still remember KotoR 2, where I had this feeling throughout the whole game.

[Noxis6]

AndroLeonidas wrote...
Yeah this is a good point. Which leads us to the next question... who is listening to her on Illum. She states quite clearly she plans to kill the SB. As the above person just said... why would he not just whack her? TIM tells you she is working for the SB which is an outright lie... not to mention he almost got you killed on the Collector ship and he lied a few more times in the game. Is the SB that scared of Cerberus that he would not come after Liara knowing she was gunning for him? Makes you wonder who is she actually working for that is keeping him from going after her. It may be Cerberus... or it may be someone we haven't seen yet. Issue 4 should tell us... I hope.

Well,I doubt Liara is the first person in the galaxy that wants to kil him,so I wouldnt say he is scared of her,actually I found her line about having him on the run quite laughable.
As for why he wouldnt just kill her well thats a question I asked myself,but if she really has a Cerberus connection infiltration seems more profitable,otherwise Nyxeris or anyone wearing a red,blue or yellow armor in the galaxy could have killed her anytime,yet there are just attempts to derail her.
As for throwing in a third faction,well wouldnt suprise me,but does the story really need that,I'm not so sure about that.

[AndroLeonidas]

bjdbwea wrote...
 I still remember KotoR 2, where I had this feeling throughout the whole game.

So true

[AndroLeonidas]

Noxis6 wrote...

AndroLeonidas wrote...
Yeah this is a good point. Which leads us to the next question... who is listening to her on Illum. She states quite clearly she plans to kill the SB. As the above person just said... why would he not just whack her? TIM tells you she is working for the SB which is an outright lie... not to mention he almost got you killed on the Collector ship and he lied a few more times in the game. Is the SB that scared of Cerberus that he would not come after Liara knowing she was gunning for him? Makes you wonder who is she actually working for that is keeping him from going after her. It may be Cerberus... or it may be someone we haven't seen yet. Issue 4 should tell us... I hope.

Well,I doubt Liara is the first person in the galaxy that wants to kil him,so I wouldnt say he is scared of her,actually I found her line about having him on the run quite laughable.
As for why he wouldnt just kill her well thats a question I asked myself,but if she really has a Cerberus connection infiltration seems more profitable,otherwise Nyxeris or anyone wearing a red,blue or yellow armor in the galaxy could have killed her anytime,yet there are just attempts to derail her.
As for throwing in a third faction,well wouldnt suprise me,but does the story really need that,I'm not so sure about that.

Well... if you discount the Collectors and Reapers themselves... take the Alliance and Cerberus out of the equation... who else does that leave really. The preview for issue #4 states it will be a huge revealing thing for Liara in what she discovers. Unless it is what some of us fear... simply that Cerberus can bring him back to life... I can't figure out what this revelation could be. Or who exactly has the power to protect her should the SB want her dead?

[bjdbwea]

Yeah, in KotoR 2 little made much sense because content was so obviously missing, just like in Liara's scene. And come to think of it, Kreia's reasons were just as laughable and far-fetched as those from the collectors. Yet overall KotoR 2 was still much worse and more disappointing than ME 2 in my opinion.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 05 mars 2010 - 10:31 .

[AndroLeonidas]

bjdbwea wrote...

Yeah, in KotoR 2 little made much sense because content was so obviously missing, just like in Liara's scene. And come to think of it, Kreia's reasons were just as laughable and far-fetched as those from the collectors. Yet overall KotoR 2 was still much worse and more disappointing than ME 2 in my opinion.

Agreed!

[Noxis6]

Aside from all mentioned factions noone that was introduced in the franchise has the power to save her from the SBs wrath,but I dont think its a good idea to bring up a new faction like,some sort of rivaling information broker organisation on to the stage now.

As for the big revaltion,no real idea too,something that explains her hatred would be nice,since theres nothing that warrants it so far,the Shadow Broker telling her its just buisiness is pretty much what you expect from him.

Project Lazarus is a possibility for a reveal,they could also bring up something like the SB sold the Normandys location to the collectors.

[bjdbwea]

Absolutely! But it makes her behaviour on Illium even less believable.

[Noxis6]

The game really has a bunch of holes to say the least,not just with Liara.
Take the first scene,the destruction of the Normandy,if the collectors really want Shepard so bad why do they risk vaporizing him/her by attacking the ship.
Even if you accept this as being their only possibility,why dont they check the wreckage for the body and capture the escape pods to check if shepards on board.
I dont buy that they were afraid of other alliance ships arriving and then they take out a whole turian patrol without any effort or damage.
All this just to hire the Shadow Broker a few weeks later to get them the body,while they could have it already.

Modifié par Noxis6, 05 mars 2010 - 11:22 .

[bjdbwea]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Fast forward to ME2, and Shepard is obviously thinking about Liara again, with the whole staring at her picture scene. This time, however, Liara is not going to walk through the door to comfort Shepard, she's not going to be there for him/her. Sad, and poignant.

Agreed. I have to give BioWare credit for that scene. While it could always have been done better, I like it. And together with the little appeal that the other companions have in comparison to Liara, it's enough to make it easy for my Shepards to stay loyal. If the developers intended to make it hard, they certainly failed there too.

Yet the problem is still that Shepard could always go to Illium and say a proper goodbye, a thing that the Virmire survivor fans were denied from the start. We could always do that, but are artificially, with no explanation at all, forbidden to. When you always immediately have to think about this obvious contradiction during the picture scene, it's once more a clear sign of bad game design. I would rather (if we already can't get the whole Liara reunion properly done) also have a story reason why Shepard can't see Liara right now, together with the promise of course that she will be back in ME 3.

[Zegla]

 at pic.

I'm gonna start another Me1 playthrough today. It's been way to long since I played it and I miss Liara .

[Unato]

reading 60+ pages of what missed is way too much

have a free bump =p



oh Redemption #3 was cool, "Who is Feron working for?!" zzz want Redemption #4 and ME3 now! >_>

[AndroLeonidas]

Noxis6 wrote...

The game really has a bunch of holes to say the least,not just with Liara.
Take the first scene,the destruction of the Normandy,if the collectors really want Shepard so bad why do they risk vaporizing him/her by attacking the ship.
Even if you accept this as being their only possibility,why dont they check the wreckage for the body and capture the escape pods to check if shepards on board.
I dont buy that they were afraid of other alliance ships arriving and then they take out a whole turian patrol without any effort or damage.
All this just to hire the Shadow Broker a few weeks later to get them the body,while they could have it already.

I said this earlier about the Collectors and Shepard. It makes you step back and wonder if this is just a colossal screw up by the writers at Bioware, or they are planning to drop a nuke on all of us with this revelation.