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[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

It's more to serve as "Ooh, look, this is the hero of the story! Watch as she kicks ass!" to the people that aren't Mass Effect fans, and to see her in action. Which is a copy/paste mechanic used way too many times, like a sex scene in an action movie, which is meant to show that these people are deeply in love, despite only knowing each other for one day, and have nothing in common.

Well, what if Garrus was the hero of Redemption?  Would they add a rape attempt an issue to show he's a bada** hero?

No, more like something as badly written as "Hey, just so you know... We don't like C-Sec officers... especially the HUMAN loving type.. hah, hah, hah... So, we're going to charge yeah a little extra... or we can do this the HARD way. Hah, Hah, Hah..."<_<

My point is she's needlessly sexualized.  There are many other ways they could have shown her kicking butt, 'oh, hey...I don't like asari....grrrr!!!!'

[TMA LIVE]

JaylaClark wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

*Mega-quote snip

She has to killed an information broker by becoming an information broker, in order to avenge some dude she's known for 2 days, who's probably dead? And this is more important then being with your once dead lover, who's now going on a suicide mission, where he/she can actually die?

I quote my Shepard:

"You've been doing this for 2 years? Liara, THAT'S INSANE!?!"

I forgot, you haven't been around a lot (in the crazy discussions that I've participated in).  I've discounted this as the primary motivation purely because it's insane, and said so on a few occasions.  The stated reasons are "for what he did to my friend, what he tried to do with you, and whatever he's doing with the Collectors".

I keep saying that the only thing that makes sense is that she knows something serious about the latter.  (I know, this game doesn't always try too hard to make sense.  ... Not even making with the "but", that's a flaw in the writing that bugs the snot out of me, and I'm not the only one.)  As I've heard -- I'd just downloaded Kasumi before a series of events conspired to convince me to let the disc rest for a while, so I haven't played her missions yet -- there's supposedly striking evidence that Reaper influence is stretching even ... since this is a before/after mission, I'll presume this is valid ... even after the defeat of the Collectors. 

Now I haven't seen or heard of evidence linking this with the SB, but it's entirely possible, plausible, and -- this is key to my mind -- so easy to make the connection it writes itself.  This is key, of course, because Mac needs all the help he can get in story writing.  (Yeah.  I went there.  See 'there'?  See me over there waving? )

(EDIT -- the parenthetical after 'around a lot')

It's somewhat true, though it's based on guest work. The secret supposedly is that the Alliance has something to do with a reaper, because we see an image in the Grey Box that looks very much like a reaper. It's even been thrown around that maybe the Alliance is building one based off the pieces from Sovereign behind the Council's back. But again, this is all guest work based off what little we know.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 25 mai 2010 - 02:49 .

[JaylaClark]

TMA LIVE wrote...

It's somewhat true, though it's based on guest work. The secret supposedly is that the Alliance has something to do with a reaper, because we see an image in the Grey Box that looks very much like a reaper. It's even been thrown around that maybe the Alliance is building one based off the pieces from Sovereign behind the Council's back.

And if they're doing that ... sheesh.  Well, to my eyes, this is something that needs to be uncovered, not sure if it's what Liara's in the process of uncovering.  But that's how I've been going, for the longest time, I've based my assumptions on the tenet that Liara's work IS important, that leaving would disrupt it, and that she couldn't do her work on the Normandy.  And amazingly enough, I can come up with ways that makes sense and would satisfy a bare majority of us.  (Not enough to be happy with the game as shipped, though.)

[TMA LIVE]

JaylaClark wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

It's somewhat true, though it's based on guest work. The secret supposedly is that the Alliance has something to do with a reaper, because we see an image in the Grey Box that looks very much like a reaper. It's even been thrown around that maybe the Alliance is building one based off the pieces from Sovereign behind the Council's back.

And if they're doing that ... sheesh.  Well, to my eyes, this is something that needs to be uncovered, not sure if it's what Liara's in the process of uncovering.  But that's how I've been going, for the longest time, I've based my assumptions on the tenet that Liara's work IS important, that leaving would disrupt it, and that she couldn't do her work on the Normandy.  And amazingly enough, I can come up with ways that makes sense and would satisfy a bare majority of us.  (Not enough to be happy with the game as shipped, though.)

Yeah, but the way I see it, I decided not to base my feelings on the current Liara based off speculation. If I'm going to judge her, I'm going to judge her by what's in the game, and how she reacts. Will her work play a bigger role in the end? I don't know. But when first met her in that office, and finished all her content, without getting that special dialogue bit, my actual response was "To hell with you" as I walked out. That's how much her role has done for me. 

[JaylaClark]

TMA LIVE wrote...

JaylaClark wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

It's somewhat true, though it's based on guest work. The secret supposedly is that the Alliance has something to do with a reaper, because we see an image in the Grey Box that looks very much like a reaper. It's even been thrown around that maybe the Alliance is building one based off the pieces from Sovereign behind the Council's back.

And if they're doing that ... sheesh.  Well, to my eyes, this is something that needs to be uncovered, not sure if it's what Liara's in the process of uncovering.  But that's how I've been going, for the longest time, I've based my assumptions on the tenet that Liara's work IS important, that leaving would disrupt it, and that she couldn't do her work on the Normandy.  And amazingly enough, I can come up with ways that makes sense and would satisfy a bare majority of us.  (Not enough to be happy with the game as shipped, though.)

Yeah, but the way I see it, I decided not to base my feelings on the current Liara based off speculation. If I'm going to judge her, I'm going to judge her by what's in the game, and how she reacts. Will her work play a bigger role in the end? I don't know. But when first met her in that office, and finished all her content, without getting that special dialogue bit, my actual response was "To hell with you" as I walked out. That's how much her role has done for me. 

You know, I don't blame you, and I may well be giving Casey more credit than he deserves, by thinking that there's no way he'd think that it'd be good to give the only guaranteed character such a selfish-sounding motivation based on a not-even-tertiary character (also going by your standards, I think, it makes sense that if a character isn't named he's not even worthy of consideration, just in the game).

[CM26617]

Hey guys. Whats been happening?

[muskettman87]

CM26617 wrote...

Hey guys. Whats been happening?

Not much, just another slow night.

[bjdbwea]

TMA LIVE wrote...

But when first met her in that office, and finished all her content, without getting that special dialogue bit, my actual response was "To hell with you" as I walked out. That's how much her role has done for me. 

I guess that's exactly the kind of reaction they wanted: Annoy people, so that everyone just forgets about the old characters and moves on to the new. The annoying part certainly worked.

Maybe they even consider it good writing, because it achieved their goal? Not with us of course, but apparently with many people.

[Andaius20]

I don't think it helped that you really don't know whats going on unless you get the graphic novels to put it into some type of context. As when I first played through I thought she was quite obsessed with revenge on the shadow broker for some unknown reason and gone all crazy. Was only later on that I got the whole story.

[muskettman87]

Andaius20 wrote...

I don't think it helped that you really don't know whats going on unless you get the graphic novels to put it into some type of context. As when I first played through I thought she was quite obsessed with revenge on the shadow broker for some unknown reason and gone all crazy. Was only later on that I got the whole story.

Maybe, but she does explain her actions in the game, regardless of the comics. The dialouge to get it  is just a little hard to find. But it does justify her actions in the end (to a degree).

[Andaius20]

She still seems to loose sight and obsess on it however. She's so worried about shep that she goes into this whole kill the Shadow broker thing but refuses to help him on a task that will kill the whole galaxy if not checked.

[muskettman87]

I see your point,but she also says that shes hunting the SB because of his connection to the collectors, not just Shepard. Personally, I'd like to think that she knows something about the SB/Collectors/Reapers we don't, or has sensitive evidence/material about his dealings with them. But only BW knows for sure.

Modifié par muskettman87, 25 mai 2010 - 06:27 .

[Andaius20]

muskettman87 wrote...

I see your point,but she also says that shes hunting the SB because of his connection to the collectors, not just Shepard. Personally, I'd like to think that she knows something about the SB/Collectors/Reapers we don't, or has sensitive evidence/material about his dealings with them. But only BW knows for sure.

Must not be too important because she doesn't  tell shep directly or send any info to him about collectors or Reapers. That could help him. Unless she really didn't want Cerberus to see it .

[muskettman87]

Or she didn't want to distract him/her with it, I'm sure Sheperd has enough pressure with the current mission that he/she does't need the extra stress. Especially is Liara can tell Shepard after the mission (DLC?). Not only that, the data cache you get on her sub-plot mission could prove to be the info, Liara just doesn't know it yet? who knows?

Modifié par muskettman87, 25 mai 2010 - 06:42 .

[Noxis6]

muskettman87 wrote...

Or she didn't want to distract him/her with it, I'm sure Sheperd has enough pressure with the current mission that he/she does't need the extra stress. Especially is Liara can tell Shepard after the mission (DLC?). Not only that, the data cache you get on her sub-plot mission could prove to be the info, Liara just doesn't know it yet? who knows?

Frankly if Liara would have revealed something critical I would say Shepards emotional state would have went from:mellow: to ,I would say given how Shepard is presented no change at all would have been the most likely outcome

In the end though the player needs to know about it or well we all have seen the effects of Liaras scene,as for DLC well if its post suicide mission,wouldnt that take away even more justification of what shes doing since the Collectors are now dead and gone regardless what ending you chose
Also I would be careful to view her whole ME2 role as that overly important and try to cram the Reapers in the whole SB plot,its more likely the SB will just turn into a target with a name for Shepard to shoot

On a sidenote as I said overall Liaras reasons are weak or at least weakly presented,Feron being the best example,when it comes to him I have the feeling Liara rescued one corpse just to chase the next one,I mean who thinks Feron is still alive,if the SB would have kept him alive I think he would have used him as leverage against Liara,otherwise hes pretty much useless

Modifié par Noxis6, 25 mai 2010 - 07:26 .

[muskettman87]

Noxis6 wrote...


In the end though the player needs to know about it or well we all have seen the effects of Liaras scene,as for DLC well if its post suicide mission,wouldnt that take away even more justification of what shes doing since the Collectors are now dead and gone regardless what ending you chose
Also I would be careful to view her whole ME2 role as that overly important and try to cram the Reapers in the whole SB plot,its more likely the SB will just turn into a target with a name for Shepard to shoot

On a sidenote as I said overall Liaras reasons are weak or at least weakly presented,Feron being the best example,when it comes to him I have the feeling Liara rescued one corpse just to chase the next one,I mean who thinks Feron is still alive,if the SB would have kept him alive I think he would have used him as leverage against Liara,otherwise hes pretty much useless

The Collectors are dead yes, but really they are just a pawn of the Reapers, anything to do with them has to do with the Reapers.

We really don't know if Liara's reasons are for the greater whole, or a victim of bad writing, and we won't know until DLC/ME3. Its purely up for personal opinion,I prefer to hope its for the greater whole,but again who knows for sure?

As for the Feron thing. To be frank its almost as silly as the whole "evil Liara" thing some people insist on perpetuating. Her reasons are far greater than just him,even if the comic conflicts that.

Modifié par muskettman87, 25 mai 2010 - 07:42 .

[Mithran88]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Noxis6 wrote...
On a sidenote as I said overall Liaras reasons are weak or at least weakly presented,Feron being the best example,when it comes to him I have the feeling Liara rescued one corpse just to chase the next one,I mean who thinks Feron is still alive,if the SB would have kept him alive I think he would have used him as leverage against Liara,otherwise hes pretty much useless

Not me. Prior to it's release, I did actually think that maybe Redemption #4 would show a possible reason as to why the Shadow Broker would keep him alive. As that's not the case, he's worm food.

I do think though that with the manner in which Liara's true motives are revealed in-game, after Shepard basically says "Come on, this can't all be over this friend. What's really going on?" and then Liara opens her heart, there's far greater depth and deeper dynamic to her hunt for the Shadow Broker than alot of people give her credit for. The fact that we're artificially prevented, through Shepard, of properly comforting and consoling Liara is very telling, IMO. To me, what both that, and the dialogue path in which Liara opens her heart, says is that the complex emotional reasons as to why Liara is hunting the Shadow Broker are all based around the grief and pain she's suffered. Guilt over handing Shepard's corpse over to Cerberus and TIM, due to her own desire to see Shepard rebuilt and revived. Self-loathing because of that fact. Fear that Shepard will hate her. All of this emotional pain, based around her love for Shepard, is what's driving her. Liara reveals all of this when Shepard basically tasks her with justifying her anger at the Shadow Broker, and it's revealed to be her chief motive.

In light of that, I think that the manner in which we're prevent from comforting her is very telling. It's a contrived way of maintaining her current character and story arc. If we were able to comfort her, she'd be back on the Normandy, as she expresses desire to. This obviously cannot be the case, as they need a way in which to keep Liara off the suicide mission.

I agree, very well said 

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Noxis6 wrote...

On a sidenote as I said overall Liaras reasons are weak or at least weakly presented,Feron being the best example,when it comes to him I have the feeling Liara rescued one corpse just to chase the next one,I mean who thinks Feron is still alive,if the SB would have kept him alive I think he would have used him as leverage against Liara,otherwise hes pretty much useless

Sure they are weak, poorly fleshed out and make very little sense. Thats bound to happen when the goal is to simply remove said character from the game. Like its been pointed out, Liara doesnt resent Saren for having a hand in getting her mother killed, she doesnt give a CRAP about the collectors for actually KILLING Shepard, she only seems to give a crap about the SB, because s/he/it tried to sell Shepards corpse and possibly captured her friend who consistently mislead and betrayed her.

Her entire reasoning sucked, because like I predicted before the games release, they arent real reasons, they are just excuses.

[kraidy1117]

Why they could't do Liara's cameo like Wrex's is beyond me

Modifié par kraidy1117, 25 mai 2010 - 07:55 .

[Noxis6]

muskettman87 wrote...

The Collectors are dead yes, but really they are just a pawn of the Reapers, anything to do with them has to do with the Reapers.

We really don't know if Liara's reasons are for the greater whole, or a victim of bad writing, and we won't know until DLC/ME3. Its purely up for personal opinion,I prefer to hope its for the greater whole,but again who knows for sure?

As for the Feron thing. To be frank its almost as silly as the whole "evil Liara" thing some people insist on perpetuating. Her reasons are far greater than just him,even if the comic conflicts that.

Yes the Collectors are more or less an advanced version of the husks,which by the way was one of the shortcomings of the ME2 story the enemy really lacked a face and Harbinger was just annoying,in any case though I still doubt the SB knows what the Collectors really are or were which applys to pretty much to most people in the galaxy

As for Liara I would more go with bad writting in that case,its pretty evident that there wasnt much effort put into her in ME2 and the main objective was for sure to keep her out of the squad at any cost,personally I think they went somewhat overboard with the at any cost part,since I would say it could have been done without slaughtering the character
On the other hand though I wonder if this is a setup for her squad role in ME3,you know ME1 was quite a while ago when ME3 will be released so it really makes me wonder if this is a setup to make her more "in your face" kewl to appeal to Biowares new target audience,something like a milder version of Jack not so much psychotic or with that amount of cursing just more "in your face"

On the Liara is "evil" thin well,I would say Bioware could do that from the position they put her in now,they can go in many directions,a turn to the "darkside" included and it could be done without much effort even in DLC,for example we never face the SB,but we find Ferons corpse and maybe records of his "interrogation" it would be easy in that case to have her totally "snap" and play the "gets totally consumed by her hatred and thirs for revenge" card
While that would not be what I wish for and certainly would be lacking some things I would say they could do it and sort of get away with it

[OrbitalWings]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Sure they are weak, poorly fleshed out and make very little sense. Thats bound to happen when the goal is to simply remove said character from the game. Like its been pointed out, Liara doesnt resent Saren for having a hand in getting her mother killed, she doesnt give a CRAP about the collectors for actually KILLING Shepard, she only seems to give a crap about the SB, because s/he/it tried to sell Shepards corpse and possibly captured her friend who consistently mislead and betrayed her.

Her entire reasoning sucked, because like I predicted before the games release, they arent real reasons, they are just excuses.

The one thing that struck me is that Liara's priorities don't seem to change at all after Shepard comes back. It doesn't seem to affect her in any way.

She's still hunting down the SB for trying to sell Shepard's body, even when Shepard is alive and well in front of her telling her to come with him/her.

I think it just comes down to the fact that they had to keep her off the Normandy so she can't die - this is a good thing. But the reasoning for it sucks - and what sucks even more is that that reasoning is now canon.

At first I thought Liara had it better than Kaidan or Ashley - but in all honesty, I'd prefer it if Liara had some reason to be angry at Shepard and that was her reason for not coming. It's so obvious that Liara wants to go with Shepard, doesn't enjoy what she's doing, and is very tired after everything she's been through. And yet because they couldn't come up with a better reason to keep her off the Normandy, she's stuck on Illium.

And Shepard's writing just made the whole thing even worse - as has been a common observation on here, Shepard in every conversation with Liara =

I know that my Shepard would probably go as far as slinging Liara over her shoulder to get her away from Illium and back on the Normandy.

Modifié par Metal-Dragon-Kiryu, 25 mai 2010 - 08:21 .

[muskettman87]

I don't know, I guess personally I'd rather be optimistic about the whole thing. Sure its sucks, and everyone of us would have done it differently,thats a fact, but really, we have no contol over it. Yeah, people can say this sucked and that sucked, but again we really have no real say in the matter, we have our opinions which we are allowed to express, and rightfully so, it is a free country. I have already expressed my views and opinions on the matter. If anyone cares they are (naturally) posted above. Other then that I have nothing to say, Its late here and I'm really tired.



BTW, this is NOT aimed at any one person(s), just who ever feels like taking the time to reading it.

[Marcin K]

 hey all & pic time: