50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Driveninhifi]

Something that people are forgetting I think: the most interesting characters in ME1 were written by Mac Walters. Wrex and Garrus were waaaay more interesting than anyone in the game - except maybe Ashley if you talk to her.



Although the ME2 plot feels more like a side story, it is still interesting. There's a ton of detail on every world and the squadmates are all pretty well done. Some of them are walking tropes to be sure, but they are pretty fleshed out.



That's the frustrating thing about it for me: the ME1 LIs are handled so poorly that it's jarring. It's really out of place with the level of quality everywhere else. As I said earlier, it's far too obvious that the writers and/or future plot are keeping the characters out of the story. The reasons given in game don't make sense with current events (especially Ash/Kaidan - I buy them not jumping into Shep's arms, but the reasons for not joining are really contrived).

I would actually buy Liara staying to hunt the Shadow Broker if she was not Shep's love. But if she does love Shepard, and with the hell she went through to get the body I find it hard to believe she would just let Shep walk out of her office to get killed again.

[Sharn01]

Well, when the xpac for Dragon Age removes LI, as well as most of your game choices completely, I guess a short cameo with no extra dialog at all can be considered continueing a romance.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Liara/Tali/Garrus fanboy reporting in!



PS. Stayed true to Liara in ME2.

PPS. Supports Liara as squadmate in ME3.

[yeldarbnotned]

Sharn01 wrote...

Well, when the xpac for Dragon Age removes LI, as well as most of your game choices completely, I guess a short cameo with no extra dialog at all can be considered continueing a romance.

Yes, in Dragon Age if you sacrifice your Warden your choices and decisions do not carryover to the new warden from Orlais.  That is utterly shameles.

However, in hindsight for Mass Effect 2, it would of been preferable not to even have LIara and Ashley appear in the game.  Mystery and unknown is a lot better than the negative cameos we got.  Like driveninhifi has said several times "it was artificial and forced" which totally damages the immersion of gameplay,  I mean I took down Saren with these two at my side.

[Marcin K]

Littledoom wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Corti78 wrote...

Nah, they moved Drew over to the star wars mmo they are making.

I sure hope he comes back as a driving force behind the story for ME3 though.  Liara needs a writer that cares about her in the finale.  Hell I hope he comes back in time to do the dlc/expansion if it is going to be focused on her.

Yes would not mind having him back, its more than clear that the ME writing team needs some help.

said right, sad truth, but said right  

[Taritu]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Something that people are forgetting I think: the most interesting characters in ME1 were written by Mac Walters. Wrex and Garrus were waaaay more interesting than anyone in the game - except maybe Ashley if you talk to her.

Although the ME2 plot feels more like a side story, it is still interesting. There's a ton of detail on every world and the squadmates are all pretty well done. Some of them are walking tropes to be sure, but they are pretty fleshed out.

That's the frustrating thing about it for me: the ME1 LIs are handled so poorly that it's jarring. It's really out of place with the level of quality everywhere else. As I said earlier, it's far too obvious that the writers and/or future plot are keeping the characters out of the story. The reasons given in game don't make sense with current events (especially Ash/Kaidan - I buy them not jumping into Shep's arms, but the reasons for not joining are really contrived).
I would actually buy Liara staying to hunt the Shadow Broker if she was not Shep's love. But if she does love Shepard, and with the hell she went through to get the body I find it hard to believe she would just let Shep walk out of her office to get killed again.

Yes, Mac seems to be good at writing characters and bad at writing plot.  Actually, I think you could write Liara having to stay, but it needs more than is there, if you're lovers.  (And really, do you want her with you if you think it's honestly a suicide mission?)  But that stuff is just not there.

[vigna]

See, the loyalty quests and the adventure to find each NPC were all very well done. I enjoyed that part of ME2 immensely. My problem was with the main, action driving plot. There didn't seem to be a main villain unless it ends up being TIM is STILL a villain. The Reapers seemed too distant in this one.

Modifié par vigna, 20 février 2010 - 01:55 .

[Unato]

well if you look at both Lotr and SW the middle chapter in them had villains indirectly tied to the main villain... ME2 seems to just following the trend for better or worse

[Deamon023]

vigna wrote...

See, the loyalty quests and the adventure to find each NPC were all very well done. I enjoyed that part of ME2 immensely. My problem was with the main, action driving plot. There didn't seem to be a main villain unless it ends up being TIM is STILL a villain. The Reapers seemed too distant in this one.

I would classify the Collectors as "instruments" of the main villain since the one taking control was a Reaper, and I was to close to him at times

[bjdbwea]

yeldarbnotned wrote...

However, in hindsight for Mass Effect 2, it would of been preferable not to even have LIara and Ashley appear in the game.  Mystery and unknown is a lot better than the negative cameos we got.  Like driveninhifi has said several times "it was artificial and forced" which totally damages the immersion of gameplay,  I mean I took down Saren with these two at my side.

No, it would have been preferable to do it properly. See, that's perhaps the most most puzzling part in this ME 1 LI debate: There would NOT have been any more work involved for the developers or voice actors if the scenes were written well instead of stupidly. There are numbers of other instances were the writing and presentation in ME 2 could use improvement, but in many of those case it would not be so quick and easy to do. It's perhaps understandable, even though not acceptable, that corners were cut in those instances, to get the game out of the door. In the ME 1 LI issue, that explanation / excuse is simply not there.

Since it's become clear that the ME 1 companions had been sidelined, no one could expect much more interaction with them than what we got. But everyone certainly had every right to expect that short interaction to make sense and don't insult the players by artificially and unrealistically limiting their options, breaking any immersion in the process. Again, this could have been prevented - through adequate writing - with virtually no additional work for the developers and voice actors.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 20 février 2010 - 04:01 .

[yeldarbnotned]

bjdbwea wrote...

yeldarbnotned wrote...

However, in hindsight for Mass Effect 2, it would of been preferable not to even have LIara and Ashley appear in the game.  Mystery and unknown is a lot better than the negative cameos we got.  Like driveninhifi has said several times "it was artificial and forced" which totally damages the immersion of gameplay,  I mean I took down Saren with these two at my side.

No, it would have been preferable to do it properly. See, that's perhaps the most most puzzling part in this ME 1 LI debate: There would NOT have been any more work involved for the developers or voice actors if the scenes were written well instead of stupidly. There are numbers of other instances were the writing and presentation in ME 2 could use improvement, but in many of those case it would not be so quick and easy to do. It's perhaps understandable, even though not acceptable, that corners were cut in those instances, to get the game
out of the door. In the ME 1 LI issue, that explanation / excuse is simply not there.

Since it's become clear that the ME 1 companions had been sidelined, no one could expect much more interaction with them than what we got. But everyone certainly had every right to expect that short interaction to make sense and don't insult the players by artificially and unrealistically limiting their options, breaking any immersion in the process. Again, this could have been prevented - through adequate writing - with virtually no additional work for the developers and voice actors.

I agree.  But at least their absence might not of broken the immersion to this extent.  As it stands now, their behavior and a lack of Shepards reaction to it,  just does not make sense.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

Darkened Dragon wrote...

One interesting thing to see if they bring her back as a romancing squadmate in ME3, is her trying to win back Shepard from his love interest from ME2 if he chose to romance someone else.

You know, that's an interesting idea that I have not heard anyone else talk about.  Your LI trying to win you back instead of the other way around.  Although I suppose it's a bit chauvinistic, "I cheated on you so you have to win me back because it was totally your fault that I cheated on you."

[Yeled]

justinnstuff wrote...

I doubt it will happen this way. If you cheat on them, I doubt they'll want you back.

I agree.  Especially since BW romances have traditionally been formulaic.  I'm not sure how they'll handle a pre-existing relationship in one of their games since they've yet to attempt such a thing.  Its always about meeting and winning the girl through dialogue.  Once you have her the relationship is essentially over.

I understand the conquest is interesting and exciting, but they will need to figure out how they can make an established relationship equally so.

[Marcin K]

justinnstuff wrote...

yeldarbnotned wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

yeldarbnotned wrote...

However, in hindsight for Mass Effect 2, it would of been preferable not to even have LIara and Ashley appear in the game.  Mystery and unknown is a lot better than the negative cameos we got.  Like driveninhifi has said several times "it was artificial and forced" which totally damages the immersion of gameplay,  I mean I took down Saren with these two at my side.

No, it would have been preferable to do it properly. See, that's perhaps the most most puzzling part in this ME 1 LI debate: There would NOT have been any more work involved for the developers or voice actors if the scenes were written well instead of stupidly. There are numbers of other instances were the writing and presentation in ME 2 could use improvement, but in many of those case it would not be so quick and easy to do. It's perhaps understandable, even though not acceptable, that corners were cut in those instances, to get the game
out of the door. In the ME 1 LI issue, that explanation / excuse is simply not there.

Since it's become clear that the ME 1 companions had been sidelined, no one could expect much more interaction with them than what we got. But everyone certainly had every right to expect that short interaction to make sense and don't insult the players by artificially and unrealistically limiting their options, breaking any immersion in the process. Again, this could have been prevented - through adequate writing - with virtually no additional work for the developers and voice actors.

I agree.  But at least their absence might not of broken the immersion to this extent.  As it stands now, their behavior and a lack of Shepards reaction to it,  just does not make sense.

If you head over to our fanclub, you'll find a post with some missing audio files that were dug up. It has some dialogue that was cut from the final product. There was supposed to be a lot more. My guess is, this stuff will show up in some future DLC.

and that DLC may be chance to fix ME2 romance errors right and blast that part of  story into ME3 so it would become as good as combined ME1 &ME2 without previous errors and slip-ups 

[bjdbwea]

Yeled wrote...

I understand the conquest is interesting and exciting, but they will need to figure out how they can make an established relationship equally so.

Well, they did with BG 2 + ToB. For me, that is until today the best example of properly writing and implementing romances in video games. Strange enough that BioWare seem unable to learn from their own successes in past games (as shown yet again by ME 2). Though their next best game in this regard was indeed ME 1. But, sorry: Jaheira > Liara.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 20 février 2010 - 04:27 .

[MoSa09]

Yeled wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...

I doubt it will happen this way. If you cheat on them, I doubt they'll want you back.

I agree.  Especially since BW romances have traditionally been formulaic.  I'm not sure how they'll handle a pre-existing relationship in one of their games since they've yet to attempt such a thing.  Its always about meeting and winning the girl through dialogue.  Once you have her the relationship is essentially over.

this is sad but true. I would love to see them taking a relationship to the next stage, behind those fairyrtale "and they lived happily ever after" and really give you space and time to explore an established relationship.

But Awakening seems to ignore relationships completely. They do exist theoretically, but your partners are nowhere present. Maybe ME 3 or DA 2 can go along that line and make the game more mature by living and eyperience a real relationship, since winning the girl of you choice by some pretty flowers and nice romantic talk and then ignore it after this point is anything but mature.

[Deamon023]

bjdbwea wrote...

Well, they did with BG 2 + ToB. For me, that is until today the best example of properly writing and implementing romances in video games. Strange enough that BioWare seem unable to learn from their own successes in past games (as shown yet again by ME 2). Though their next best game in this regard was indeed ME 1. But, sorry: Jaheira > Liara.

What about Bastilla in Kotor? loved teasing her, so many dialogue options

[Yeled]

Deamon023 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

Well, they did with BG 2 + ToB. For me, that is until today the best example of properly writing and implementing romances in video games. Strange enough that BioWare seem unable to learn from their own successes in past games (as shown yet again by ME 2). Though their next best game in this regard was indeed ME 1. But, sorry: Jaheira > Liara.

What about Bastilla in Kotor? loved teasing her, so many dialogue options

Bastilla was a great character, but she stands out in my mind as the worst example of this very problem.  Once she kisses you she won't even talk to you again.  It was like a middle school girl getting shy and dealing with her shyness by ignoring you.

[Marcin K]

as many said before in ME2 DLC and/or ME3 the relationship should be grown form start stage [ME1 or 2 depending on choices] through evolution, or "rocking" as someone in BioWare called it and then future installment=what will happen with lovers in future and i mean distant one also... and by lovers i mean BOTH NOT just one side story

Modifié par Marcin R, 20 février 2010 - 04:46 .

[bjdbwea]

Deamon023 wrote...

What about Bastilla in Kotor? loved teasing her, so many dialogue options

Agreed, a great character as well, and her integration into the story line was very, very good too. Yet ME 1 wins that contest for me.

[jbauck]

Driveninhifi wrote...
<snip>
That's the frustrating thing about it for me: the ME1 LIs are handled so poorly that it's jarring. It's really out of place with the level of quality everywhere else.

This.  And again ... this.  ME2 is frustrating in its handling of the ME1 LIs.  I do completely understand the "no ME1 LIs as squadmates, so they'll definitely be in ME3" directive.  In fact, I heartily support that directive.  I want Liara to be alive and well (and in my squad, dangit!) in ME3.  So - the intention doesn't bother me.  It's the execution.  Is it wrong that, given the "live to see ME3" directive, I wanted the follow-through on the directive to ... make sense?  In game?

But on another Liara-Topic: I've noticed a split in our happy little Liara-Lovin' family in regards to her "GrimDarkification".  I might be opening a can of worms, but one of the things I really like about this thread is that it rarely gets bumped for no reason, and people generally write great well-thought-out posts with actual new opinions and content for discussion ("I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite thread on the internet").  So, I think the 'can of worms' risk is low in asking everyone - what do you think of the Grim!Darkification?  By itself - outside of the part where it's wholly weird and jarring that Shep has no Paragon-Interrupt-Hug-Comforting or Renegade-Computer-Throwing-Confrontation options.

My completely unscientific impression is that opinions on this so far fall into roughly four groups:
a) Hate It Hate It Hate It - that way lies only pain and madness
Tolerate it - it's a weird choice for Liara, but it might not suck.  Maybe. 
c) Intriguing - this has the potential to go someplace awesome. Where are they going with this?
d) Solid - It's completely realistic given the comic book events.
e) Other - Included in case I missed anything

Personally, I waffle between B and C.