50907 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

I'm not opposed to such a change in character, the above mentioned Bastila had it too, even during one single game. It's certainly one way to make things more interesting. And given the circumstances, it's not unbelievable for Liara to change in this general direction. BUT:

1) It has to be explained and presented well. This was the case in KotoR. It is not in ME 2. Not at all.

2) There has to be a way for the player to redeem the good in the character. Now, Liara hasn't really turned to the dark side, but as some have already feared in this thread, BioWare could well have that in store for her. Fine by me, but only, as I said, if in the end the player gets the chance of helping the character back to the light side (more or less). Yeah, I always prefer happy endings. KotoR did it, again believable and well presented. ME 3? Well, hopefully...? My faith in BioWare has never been lower than right now though.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 20 février 2010 - 05:50 .

[Zegla]

jbauck wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

That's the frustrating thing about it for me: the ME1 LIs are handled so poorly that it's jarring. It's really out of place with the level of quality everywhere else.

This.  And again ... this.  ME2 is frustrating in its handling of the ME1 LIs.  I do completely understand the "no ME1 LIs as squadmates, so they'll definitely be in ME3" directive.  In fact, I heartily support that directive.  I want Liara to be alive and well (and in my squad, dangit!) in ME3.  So - the intention doesn't bother me.  It's the execution.  Is it wrong that, given the "live to see ME3" directive, I wanted the follow-through on the directive to ... make sense?  In game?

But on another Liara-Topic: I've noticed a split in our happy little Liara-Lovin' family in regards to her "GrimDarkification".  I might be opening a can of worms, but one of the things I really like about this thread is that it rarely gets bumped for no reason, and people generally write great well-thought-out posts with actual new opinions and content for discussion ("I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite thread on the internet").  So, I think the 'can of worms' risk is low in asking everyone - what do you think of the Grim!Darkification?  By itself - outside of the part where it's wholly weird and jarring that Shep has no Paragon-Interrupt-Hug-Comforting or Renegade-Computer-Throwing-Confrontation options.

My completely unscientific impression is that opinions on this so far fall into roughly four groups:
a) Hate It Hate It Hate It - that way lies only pain and madness
Tolerate it - it's a weird choice for Liara, but it might not suck.  Maybe. 
c) Intriguing - this has the potential to go someplace awesome. Where are they going with this?
d) Solid - It's completely realistic given the comic book events.
e) Other - Included in case I missed anything

Personally, I waffle between B and C.

I'm also between B and C. Probably leaning more towards C. It has potential, and now that they have dragged Liara down that path they could and should continue with the story (which, of course, would end with Liara being herself again and joining our crew ). There is a chance they might pull it of and there is a chance they might do an epic fail and screw it up (the latter resulting in me looking like this --->).

Modifié par Zegla, 20 février 2010 - 06:09 .

[Unit-Alpha]

I'd go with e) namely because I just think BW did it to get us to look at the NEW and IMPROVED LI's.

[jbauck]

bjdbwea wrote...
1) It has to be explained and presented well. This was the case in KotoR. It is not in ME 2. Not at all.

I absolutely agree.  In a lot of respects, the comic book really hampered the ability to do this In Game.  Giving BioWare the benefit of the doubt (I realize not everyone is prepared to do this at this point ... I'm ... hesitatingly doing this ... it's more of a "hope" thing than a "trust" thing for me right now), there IS a reason.  It just ... costs extra

bjdbwea wrote...
2) There has to be a way for the player to redeem the good in the character.

Now THIS would be the 2nd-act of a 3-act romance.  Liara slides towards the dark side.  Will Shep bring her back?  Tune in next time!  Angsty and upsetting, yes - but, at least, the 2nd-act of 3-acts as promised.  I don't know ... maybe BioWare feels like they DID that with what was in ME2.  I just ... disagree.  It's not explicit enough.  There's too much "fill in the blanks" and identical romance/non-romance dialogue.  I wouldn't have a problem with a cliffhanger - I feel like ME2 didn't quite kick me over the edge of the cliff - it just kind of said "hey ... there MIGHT be a cliff here ... just IMAGINE that you're hanging off it, okay?"

But, overall, this is why I waffle between B and C on my previous post.  There ARE some cool places they could go with the Grim!Darkification.  There are some cool places they could go that would be a very compelling, drama-filled, awesome story.  I just worry about whether or not they'll actually do it - and I just can't imagine it would be given the attention it deserves if it were left hanging until ME3, which is why I really REALLY want this explored in a DLC.

ETA:

Unit-Alpha wrote:
I'd go with e) namely because I just think BW did it to get us to look at the NEW and IMPROVED LI's.

That rationale would just be a Big Ball of Epic Fail, wouldn't it?  I will grant that they were "NEW", but even with the mishandling of the ME1 LIs, I simply did not find them improved.  At all.  Not even a  little.

Modifié par jbauck, 20 février 2010 - 06:20 .

[Cyberstrike nTo]

I think an expansion pack dealing with the whole Liara vs. The Shadow Broker would be a great idea and BW could still make her a squad mate in ME2, there is space for one more character on the party select menu and there is the port observation deck for her to stay on the Normandy.  

[Deamon023]

I go with C, there is potential there to make something good and its nice to see how Liara acts after the SB tries to hurt someone she cares deeply about and I think it's realistic.



Who wouldn't show a darkside if someone tries to hurt those you love and care about?

[Marcin K]

i go e->answer posted earlier in post as a frame of story thing, quoted few times by ppl [look it up somewhere around page 5 or so, but not 100%sure] also my answer leans toward c in some way i think

Modifié par Marcin R, 20 février 2010 - 06:26 .

[Unit-Alpha]

jbauck wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...
1) It has to be explained and presented well. This was the case in KotoR. It is not in ME 2. Not at all.

I absolutely agree.  In a lot of respects, the comic book really hampered the ability to do this In Game.  Giving BioWare the benefit of the doubt (I realize not everyone is prepared to do this at this point ... I'm ... hesitatingly doing this ... it's more of a "hope" thing than a "trust" thing for me right now), there IS a reason.  It just ... costs extra

bjdbwea wrote...
2) There has to be a way for the player to redeem the good in the character.

Now THIS would be the 2nd-act of a 3-act romance.  Liara slides towards the dark side.  Will Shep bring her back?  Tune in next time!  Angsty and upsetting, yes - but, at least, the 2nd-act of 3-acts as promised.  I don't know ... maybe BioWare feels like they DID that with what was in ME2.  I just ... disagree.  It's not explicit enough.  There's too much "fill in the blanks" and identical romance/non-romance dialogue.  I wouldn't have a problem with a cliffhanger - I feel like ME2 didn't quite kick me over the edge of the cliff - it just kind of said "hey ... there MIGHT be a cliff here ... just IMAGINE that you're hanging off it, okay?"

But, overall, this is why I waffle between B and C on my previous post.  There ARE some cool places they could go with the Grim!Darkification.  There are some cool places they could go that would be a very compelling, drama-filled, awesome story.  I just worry about whether or not they'll actually do it - and I just can't imagine it would be given the attention it deserves if it were left hanging until ME3, which is why I really REALLY want this explored in a DLC.

ETA:

Unit-Alpha wrote:
I'd go with e) namely because I just think BW did it to get us to look at the NEW and IMPROVED LI's.

That rationale would just be a Big Ball of Epic Fail, wouldn't it?  I will grant that they were "NEW", but even with the mishandling of the ME1 LIs, I simply did not find them improved.  At all.  Not even a  little.

I know, I found the LI thing to be weak. I tried Miranda's LI subplot just to check out if they were any better or even equal to ME1. But they weren't. She had like 2/3 lines of romantic dialogue that was terrible compared to the LI dialogue in ME1. They were new, but nowhere near improved.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 20 février 2010 - 06:24 .

[jlb524]

jbauck wrote...

My completely unscientific impression is that opinions on this so far fall into roughly four groups:
a) Hate It Hate It Hate It - that way lies only pain and madness
Tolerate it - it's a weird choice for Liara, but it might not suck.  Maybe. 
c) Intriguing - this has the potential to go someplace awesome. Where are they going with this?
d) Solid - It's completely realistic given the comic book events.
e) Other - Included in case I missed anything

Personally, I waffle between B and C.

During my first playthrough, I started off at 'a' but quickly went to 'b' after taking a quick break from Liara (by this I mean I left Illium and did some recruitment missions before finishing all of Liara's hacking missions).

Right now, I'm at 'c'.  I'm really curious to see what they are planning for Liara in the present (Redemption comic) and future (DLC, ME3) of the series.  I won't get to 'd' until I read the full comic series and I like how Liara was handled in it.

[jbauck]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

I think an expansion pack dealing with the whole Liara vs. The Shadow Broker would be a great idea and BW could still make her a squad mate in ME2, there is space for one more character on the party select menu and there is the port observation deck for her to stay on the Normandy.  

I believe the port observation deck is already reserved for a new DLC-squaddie that is decidedly NOT the ME1 LI (What was that name again?  Kasumi?  I find the details disappearing in the big well of apathy I have about this particular piece of information).

But, yes - Liara's SB-arc begs for a DLC.  Unless it's reaper-related (which strikes me as a bit silly - not everything can be a Reaper Plot), it just couldn't be as expansive as it should be if it were left until ME3.  It's just too important canon-wise for a small side-quest, but not important enough for what would be, presumably, the reaper-focused ME3.  So DLC strikes me as the appropriate way to tie up this loose end.

[Marcin K]

jbauck wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

I think an expansion pack dealing with the whole Liara vs. The Shadow Broker would be a great idea and BW could still make her a squad mate in ME2, there is space for one more character on the party select menu and there is the port observation deck for her to stay on the Normandy.  

I believe the port observation deck is already reserved for a new DLC-squaddie that is decidedly NOT the ME1 LI (What was that name again?  Kasumi?  I find the details disappearing in the big well of apathy I have about this particular piece of information).

But, yes - Liara's SB-arc begs for a DLC.  Unless it's reaper-related (which strikes me as a bit silly - not everything can be a Reaper Plot), it just couldn't be as expansive as it should be if it were left until ME3.  It's just too important canon-wise for a small side-quest, but not important enough for what would be, presumably, the reaper-focused ME3.  So DLC strikes me as the appropriate way to tie up this loose end.

as for Liara place-isn't it obvious already?? capitain's cabin on upper deck is EMPTY like just WAITING FOR Liara...

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

I know, I found the LI thing to be weak. I tried Miranda's LI subplot just to check out if they were any better or even equal to ME1. But they weren't. She had like 2/3 lines of romantic dialogue that was terrible compared to the LI dialogue in ME1. They were new, but nowhere near improved.

I totally agree. "More compelling" must be yet more "Casey-speak". Its like how "streamlined" means "massive cutbacks". They felt like they had far less dialogue compared to the ME1 LIs, both in terms of number of conversations and also the length of each conversation. Also, not including the pre-omega relay romantic scene, they had nothing like the ME1 LIs, where at that certain point in the plot Shepard needs comfort after the council screws him/her, and the ME1 LI shows up with comfort in abundance.

Romances in ME2 really did suck IMO. Miranda was an okay character, I couldnt stand Jack though, but neither were good romances. Talis romance was well written and very sweet, but I dont much care for Tali as a romance option, and its amazing how brief the whole romance is. 3 conversations and a 30 second love scene. Wow, where did it all go wrong?

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 20 février 2010 - 06:44 .

[Nozybidaj]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

I'd go with e) namely because I just think BW did it to get us to look at the NEW and IMPROVED LI's.

This.  Though I could be between b and c if they don't screw it up.

[Marcin K]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

[...] and its amazing how brief the whole romance is. 3 conversations and a 30 second love scene. Wow, where did it all go wrong?

other writer maybe?

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Oh and as for where I stand, personally I could run the whole gamut from a) to d).



The funny thing is though, I would actually need some substantial in game content to decide, and surprise surprise, her brief cameo in ME2 and its associated hacking mission dont offer anywhere near enough for me to choose.

[Srslydude01]

I would say between c and d. I'm optimistic, but I have a lot of hope Liara will play a lot larger role in future DLC and ME 3.

[jbauck]

Nozybidaj wrote ...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

I'd go with e) namely because I just think BW did it to get us to look at the NEW and IMPROVED LI's.

This. Though I could be between b and c if they don't screw it up.

and

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote ...

Oh and as for where I stand, personally I could run the whole gamut from a) to d).

The funny thing is though, I would actually need some substantial in game content to decide, and surprise surprise, her brief cameo in ME2 and its associated hacking mission dont offer anywhere near enough for me to choose.

Here's hoping BioWare pulls a rabbit out of their hat. Step One: Reach into hat (Liara DLC). Step Two: Extract Rabbit (Liara as Squaddie in ME3).

[Nozybidaj]

jbauck wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote ...

Unit-Alpha wrote...
I'd go with e) namely because I just think BW did it to get us to look at the NEW and IMPROVED LI's.

This. Though I could be between b and c if they don't screw it up.

and

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote ...
Oh and as for where I stand, personally I could run the whole gamut from a) to d).
The funny thing is though, I would actually need some substantial in game content to decide, and surprise surprise, her brief cameo in ME2 and its associated hacking mission dont offer anywhere near enough for me to choose.

Here's hoping BioWare pulls a rabbit out of their hat. Step One: Reach into hat (Liara DLC). Step Two: Extract Rabbit (Liara as Squaddie in ME3).

I'd ammend that as Liara as Squaddie starting in ME2 expansion.

If they come out with an expansion for Liara to take out the SB the missions should be built as 2 man squads with Shep and Liara.

[Nozybidaj]

jbauck wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...
1) It has to be explained and presented well. This was the case in KotoR. It is not in ME 2. Not at all.

I absolutely agree.  In a lot of respects, the comic book really hampered the ability to do this In Game.  Giving BioWare the benefit of the doubt (I realize not everyone is prepared to do this at this point ... I'm ... hesitatingly doing this ... it's more of a "hope" thing than a "trust" thing for me right now), there IS a reason.  It just ... costs extra

bjdbwea wrote...
2) There has to be a way for the player to redeem the good in the character.

Now THIS would be the 2nd-act of a 3-act romance.  Liara slides towards the dark side.  Will Shep bring her back?  Tune in next time!  Angsty and upsetting, yes - but, at least, the 2nd-act of 3-acts as promised.  I don't know ... maybe BioWare feels like they DID that with what was in ME2.  I just ... disagree.  It's not explicit enough.  There's too much "fill in the blanks" and identical romance/non-romance dialogue.  I wouldn't have a problem with a cliffhanger - I feel like ME2 didn't quite kick me over the edge of the cliff - it just kind of said "hey ... there MIGHT be a cliff here ... just IMAGINE that you're hanging off it, okay?"

Agree, they just didn't do anything with it.  It would have served as a great "2nd-act of a 3-act romance" but they completely skipped over it.  There is potential there, but there was no effort put into it.  If I want to give BW the benefit of the doubt I'd say it is all coming in a big expansion.  That doesn't excuse the way it was handled in the core game, but at least it would show they didn't just write the character off.  Now the question is, are they going to do that?

I still think that whatever they do have planned though we aren't going to like.  

[JPfanner]

I'm at A, simply because there is only one reason Liara would ever be remotely against Shepard since she knows what the stakes are. And I sure as hell don't want Liara to be indoctrinated. There isn't any "light" or "dark" side in this game beyond having free will or being some brain raped indoctrinated slave. Having that happen to her wouldn't be intriguing or interesting to me at all, it'd just be like a slap in the face and I'd be disgusted.

[Sharn01]

I am actually between C and A which is an odd place to be I know, but there is a reason for it.



There is not enough of an explanation as to why there was a change, none at all in game, and from what I have heard very little in the comic, which I have not read, though I could be wrong, but it has been described that she acts out of character from the very start. I would think the first reaction to Shep's death would be sadness, anger would come later.



My fear for the character redemption things is that it is a cop out. We have talked in the past about how Bioware has not done a developing relationship beyong the meet/talk/get it on stage in the game, it never develope's after that, they did kind of do it in BG2, but that was a long time ago.



Back to it being a cop out though, if they force Liara down the road of being a villian that need to be redeemed, it is easily a cop out from developing a romance beyond its initial stage, as in the end it will probably be a rescue Liara from herself scenereo, then repair the relationship which is equal to the stages of starting a new one, and finish with it in the same place it was in ME1.



While it is possible to take it further then that, I doubt it unless they plan on giving about ten times as much dialog to her as even the longest dialog tree's of any ME2 character's, and even then it will be pushing it.

[St Mael]

JPfanner wrote...

I'm at A, simply because there is only one reason Liara would ever be remotely against Shepard since she knows what the stakes are. And I sure as hell don't want Liara to be indoctrinated. There isn't any "light" or "dark" side in this game beyond having free will or being some brain raped indoctrinated slave. Having that happen to her wouldn't be intriguing or interesting to me at all, it'd just be like a slap in the face and I'd be disgusted.

She's obviously not indoctrinated, and she isn't against Shepard either.