Hello everyone! *waves*
Just dropping by from the Ashley thread to show support for the ME1 LI in ME3.
Support Liara T'Soni for ME3 - Squadmate and LI
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Nozybidaj
, févr. 18 2010 08:42
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#3627
Guest_General Stubbs_*
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 07:14
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But you have to admit, it would be a strange decision to just cater to new fans.Nozybidaj wrote...
General Stubbs wrote...
I am 100% certain, BioWare is taking our concerns about the Beautiful Blue Goddess seriously
/shrug I more get the impression BW couldn't be bothered to care one way or the other. If they cared about the fans of the ME1 LI's or the characters themseleves they wouldn't have taken them out of the sequel or they would at least have given us something positive in ME2 that the fans could rally around and use to sustain the fanbases till they do whatever it is they are going to do.
Instead the only representation they got in ME2 was completely negative to drive as many folks as possible out of these fanbases and into the groups for the new LI's. It would seem kinda silly if they turn around and try to reverse that at this point.
The ME1 LI's might get a bone thrown to them but looking at it realistically I don't think the fans for these characters have any reason to expect more in the future than what they have already received.
New fans are the unknown variable, you don't know if they are going to enjoy the game or remain loyal. You can't completely ignore your previous fan base.
Eventually, you will lose all of your fans, new and loyal.
As I have said before, a great deal of the decisions from companies comes from the guys in financial sector.
Even if BioWare was just catering to new fans completely, they now see an opportunity to make even more money off of ME1 LI fans because we are deeply upset with their actions. I have never seen a company pass up an opportunity to make money in my entire life.
They sure as hell want to listen to us, if they put out a random expansion, nobody would buy it and they would have wasted money developing it.
#3628
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Posté 07 mars 2010 - 07:18
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I did say it was a very simple calculation, it is just to give you an idea how much money they could loose from small amount of fans.bjdbwea wrote...
That calculation is too simple. First, by trashing characters, you save development time and thereby money. Second, by diverting resources and focus from character development to combat, you increase sales to an undemanding shooter audience. That's why the term "acceptable losses" is correct.
But whatever floats their boat. Awakenings could be the first BioWare game ever that I never purchase (not because of the ME 2 fiasco, but because I don't like what I hear about the expansion). I still hope that there are enough people who will act accordingly, as that's the only chance to push the development in another direction (or to push EA into closing BioWare, which I don't doubt will happen to them too should at one point the sales number continue to not meet the expectations - but while I definitely would not be happy about it, they would have brought it all on themselves).
Companies invariably think through pure financial logic, if they see us as marketable, they will listen and do what we wanted in the first place. Or in this case a Liara expansion that includes something for the other ME1 LIs.
They would not put out the money to develop something we wouldn't buy, that is why they have to listen.
#3629
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 07:36
bjdbwea
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Oh, I don't doubt that. But "we" (the few people frequenting this forum) are irrelevant.
You would have to know how many people appreciate a specific content. Does the company have numbers on how many people appreciate Liara? I doubt it. The majority of customers never visits the forums. The company does know that there's an audience that will buy anything if it allows them to look cool and shoot stuff. They also know that this kind of content can be developed quicker. Plus they only have a limited number of people available to work on DLC. Financial logic therefore doesn't make a proper Liara DLC seem very likely. Or any meaningful DLC for that matter.
We can be glad if they throw us a bone with a few additional lines in dialogue. They didn't even bother in the main game, but your financial logic indeed says that they could see this as a cheap enough way to make sure her fans also buy the pew-pew mission pack. All hypothetically speaking of course, as even the existance of such DLC is not confirmed. (I will gladly admit to being wrong, should it be the case eventually.)
You would have to know how many people appreciate a specific content. Does the company have numbers on how many people appreciate Liara? I doubt it. The majority of customers never visits the forums. The company does know that there's an audience that will buy anything if it allows them to look cool and shoot stuff. They also know that this kind of content can be developed quicker. Plus they only have a limited number of people available to work on DLC. Financial logic therefore doesn't make a proper Liara DLC seem very likely. Or any meaningful DLC for that matter.
We can be glad if they throw us a bone with a few additional lines in dialogue. They didn't even bother in the main game, but your financial logic indeed says that they could see this as a cheap enough way to make sure her fans also buy the pew-pew mission pack. All hypothetically speaking of course, as even the existance of such DLC is not confirmed. (I will gladly admit to being wrong, should it be the case eventually.)
Modifié par bjdbwea, 07 mars 2010 - 07:39 .
#3630
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 07:38
Blameless77
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I don't think Bioware is out to alienate a bunch of fans. I'm fairly confident that ME1 romances will be brought to a relatively satisfying conclusion in ME3 (at the very least, I don't think they'll be worse off than ME2 romances which are imported into ME3). They've long touted the whole "we're tracking who cheated", so it's not as if they're simply going to ditch the romances from the original game all together. Additionally, Bioware HAD to know that fans were going to react negatively to the treatment of these characters, so I have to imagine they have something planned to make amends (either in DLC or ME3).
The hard part, of course, for fans of ME1 LIs is the wait for either DLC or ME3 (if there's no DLC). I can certainly understand the frustration, and again, I don't think any of the fans of the ME1 LIs were pleased with how they were handled, but in my opinion it's a little premature to abandon all hope. It's only been a little over a month since the game was released. Maybe I'm being a little naive, but these are just my thoughts for what they're worth.
The hard part, of course, for fans of ME1 LIs is the wait for either DLC or ME3 (if there's no DLC). I can certainly understand the frustration, and again, I don't think any of the fans of the ME1 LIs were pleased with how they were handled, but in my opinion it's a little premature to abandon all hope. It's only been a little over a month since the game was released. Maybe I'm being a little naive, but these are just my thoughts for what they're worth.
#3631
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 07:50
Nozybidaj
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Blameless77 wrote...
Additionally, Bioware HAD to know that fans were going to react negatively to the treatment of these characters,
Hmm, well that's just it isn't it. If you are going down a path where you have to stop and say "You know what, people are really going to hate this." You have two choices, either "Hmm, yeah you're right, maybe we should think of a better way to do this" or "**** 'em".
We know which one BW chose.
#3632
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Posté 07 mars 2010 - 07:56
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Usually if a company sees so many people are interested in something, they will go out of their way to get the necessary data.bjdbwea wrote...
Oh, I don't doubt that. But "we" (the few people frequenting this forum) are irrelevant.
You would have to know how many people appreciate a specific content. Does the company have numbers on how many people appreciate Liara? I doubt it. The majority of customers never visits the forums. The company does know that there's an audience that will buy anything if it allows them to look cool and shoot stuff. They also know that this kind of content can be developed quicker. Plus they only have a limited number of people available to work on DLC. Financial logic therefore doesn't make a proper Liara DLC seem very likely. Or any meaningful DLC for that matter.
We can be glad if they throw us a bone with a few additional lines in dialogue. They didn't even bother in the main game, but your financial logic indeed says that they could see this as a cheap enough way to make sure her fans also buy the pew-pew mission pack. All hypothetically speaking of course, as even the existance of such DLC is not confirmed. (I will gladly admit to being wrong, should it be the case eventually.)
I was thinking about BioWare tracking data on what people have been doing in ME2, that would reach people everywhere who have an internet connection. What other reason would you put that feature in for except to collect data?
A very large percent of people who play ME2 while on Xbox Live (ME2 is in the top ten most played games on Xbox Live) and well, you will probably always use your PC's internet connection.
All BioWare has to do is see how many people were loyal to the ME1 LIs (or those of us that stood in Liara's office trying to give her a hug, lol) and they would act accordingly to the data.
Also, I remember reading that a large part of the ME dev team is actually moving over to work on DLC.
Modifié par General Stubbs, 07 mars 2010 - 07:56 .
#3633
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 08:01
Yeled
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LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
Yeled, try this one:
Have a look at this too:
Hehe, I love Liara!
Thanks. Nice scenes. I especially like adding Liara into the picture scene before the omega relay mission. Adds a really nice touch.
#3634
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 08:08
bjdbwea
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That is a possibility, I admit. Unfortunately we don't know and have no influence on what kind of data is submitted, that's why I for one disable such features. But it could be a way to collect the required numbers. Yet what they do with it is open. It remains that short and meaningless DLC is the cheapest to produce and will always find enough buyers.
#3635
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 08:09
Blameless77
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Nozybidaj wrote...
Blameless77 wrote...
Additionally, Bioware HAD to know that fans were going to react negatively to the treatment of these characters,
Hmm, well that's just it isn't it. If you are going down a path where you have to stop and say "You know what, people are really going to hate this." You have two choices, either "Hmm, yeah you're right, maybe we should think of a better way to do this" or "**** 'em".
We know which one BW chose.
Well, I think the goal was to produce a negative reaction in those fans as part of the whole rocky relationship/dark second part of the trilogy. I think most would agree they were too heavy handed in their approach, but I'm skeptical that their intent was to throw the fan bases for those characters out the airlock completely. I'm skeptical that Mac Walters sat down, rubbed his hands together, and thought "How can I best destroy these characters?"
I guess what I'm trying to argue was that Bioware's mistake was one of implementation rather than intent. If we accept that (which I know not everyone does), then there is significantly more reason to hope for a happy resolution down the road in either DLC or ME3.
#3636
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 08:17
Yeled
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bjdbwea wrote...
That is a possibility, I admit. Unfortunately we don't know and have no influence on what kind of data is submitted, that's why I for one disable such features. But it could be a way to collect the required numbers. Yet what they do with it is open. It remains that short and meaningless DLC is the cheapest to produce and will always find enough buyers.
I'm afraid the data collected might not work to our favor. Yes, it might show some people remained loyal. But it will also show the vast majority of people cheated. And it might show that people like shooters, not roleplaying and dialogue scenes.
I hope it doesn't show that, but remember we're talking about data that's going to be digested in terms of large, sweaping trends. Forty percent did A, 75 percent did W, only 5 percent did M. I doubt the loyal Liara fans represent a huge sweaping percentage. Bioware put shiny things in front of a large group of people. How many of them realistically kept their hands off?
#3637
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Posté 07 mars 2010 - 08:20
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Actually, it makes sense.Nozybidaj wrote...
Blameless77 wrote...
Additionally, Bioware HAD to know that fans were going to react negatively to the treatment of these characters,
Hmm, well that's just it isn't it. If you are going down a path where you have to stop and say "You know what, people are really going to hate this." You have two choices, either "Hmm, yeah you're right, maybe we should think of a better way to do this" or "**** 'em".
We know which one BW chose.
Anybody works with finances (who is not a complete f**king moron, lol) would know that you will lose fans if you ****** them off. Fans = Money, it doesn't matter how many of them you lose, you will lose money.
I have seen some extremely complex investment tools trying to be brought to life in my life, and they cost Millions to create. Therefore a Liara expansion should only cost millions at the most.
Even if it cost 5,000,000$ to make a Liara expansion, they would break even at 250,000 people buying it at 20$. ME2 had 2,000,000 people buy it.
If BioWare included something for the other ME1 LI fans, I could easily imagine them selling the expansion to at least 400,000 people. They would make 3,000,000$ (Again, this is a very simple calculation not counting in several factors, but the point is BioWare will make money).
CoD: World at War had 9,000,000 sales for people buying their map packs at 10$. 90,000,000$ for maps.
I couldn't imagine why BioWare would try and put Liara in the game several times and just give up or even put her in a comic book series if they were actually going to screw all of us ME1 fans over.
That would mean they completely wasted money on even having Liara in the comics if they were just going to ignore her.
Modifié par General Stubbs, 07 mars 2010 - 08:21 .
#3638
Guest_Littledoom_*
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 08:22
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Just sharing some blue goodness with you people 
#3639
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 08:23
bjdbwea
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@ Yeled
That's on top of it all. I have little doubt that I am in a minority as a player who prefers depth over action, characters over cannon fodder and (actual) romances over love scenes.
That's on top of it all. I have little doubt that I am in a minority as a player who prefers depth over action, characters over cannon fodder and (actual) romances over love scenes.
Modifié par bjdbwea, 07 mars 2010 - 08:24 .
#3640
Guest_Littledoom_*
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 08:30
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bjdbwea wrote...
@ Yeled
That's on top of it all. I have little doubt that I am in a minority as a player who prefers depth over action, characters over cannon fodder and (actual) romances over love scenes.
You are not completely alone but we are few and with the release of ME2 we was overrun by those that don't care a bit about those things. Now we are a real minority and the future looks somewhat dark to me.
#3641
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Posté 07 mars 2010 - 08:32
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Littledoom wrote...
Just sharing some blue goodness with you people
Aww, look at her eyes, her lips.
Love you, Liara!
#3642
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 08:44
Nozybidaj
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Blameless77 wrote...
I'm skeptical that Mac Walters sat down, rubbed his hands together, and thought "How can I best destroy these characters?"
Hah, that's actually kinda exactly how I imagined it. I get the feeling the ME1 crew was more "Drew's" characters and the ME2 is more "Mac's" characters. If Mac continues as lead writer I definitely see them getting the major focus of development.
#3643
Guest_General Stubbs_*
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 08:45
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Actually, one thing to be happy about is a minority can be a lot of people these days.Littledoom wrote...
bjdbwea wrote...
@ Yeled
That's on top of it all. I have little doubt that I am in a minority as a player who prefers depth over action, characters over cannon fodder and (actual) romances over love scenes.
You are not completely alone but we are few and with the release of ME2 we was overrun by those that don't care a bit about those things. Now we are a real minority and the future looks somewhat dark to me.
If you say something about 99% of the people in the world there are still 60,000,000 people left over in that 1%.
If there are 100,000,000 gamers in the world, and those of us who want depth have a 5% minority, there are still 5,000,000 of us. Those numbers still allow for developers to cater to what we want as well.
5,000,000 people times 70$ = 350,000,000$. Still too much money to pass up for devs.
But, I am starting to annoy myself talking about finances so I will get back to the Lovely Liara.
Honestly, there are probably people who work for BioWare who are going over the financial pros and cons of a Liara Expansion every week and trying to form their professional opinions, lol.
Modifié par General Stubbs, 07 mars 2010 - 08:54 .
#3644
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 09:03
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What people tend to forget is that in ME3, from the squads of both games so far, we are guaranteed to have Liara and a surviving Alliance soldier. To me, that suggests that Liara and either Ash/Kaidan will have the greatest role to play storywise, will be squadmates and will be the romances that they spend the most time developing in ME3. To me, that makes me feel very optimistic for Liara's future.
#3645
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 09:08
Marcin K
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great pic thanks Liara:wub:LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
Littledoom wrote...
Just sharing some blue goodness with you people
Aww, look at her eyes, her lips.
Love you, Liara!
#3646
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 09:19
Nynaeve
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LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
What people tend to forget is that in ME3, from the squads of both games so far, we are guaranteed to have Liara and a surviving Alliance soldier. To me, that suggests that Liara and either Ash/Kaidan will have the greatest role to play storywise, will be squadmates and will be the romances that they spend the most time developing in ME3. To me, that makes me feel very optimistic for Liara's future.
I feel the same, there's still one helluva lot of story to be told and I'm feeling really optimistic myself. Hell yeah I'm pissed of at the way Liara was handled in ME2, but I think things can only look up from here. Its only been a month or so since release, we just need to give it some time
Chin up Liara fans!
#3647
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 09:22
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Exactly, frij.
It's just the wait that's going to be horrible! At least we've got the last issue of Redemption coming up in just over 4 weeks time. More Liara!!
It's just the wait that's going to be horrible! At least we've got the last issue of Redemption coming up in just over 4 weeks time. More Liara!!
#3648
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 09:24
Nozybidaj
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frij wrote...
LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
What people tend to forget is that in ME3, from the squads of both games so far, we are guaranteed to have Liara and a surviving Alliance soldier. To me, that suggests that Liara and either Ash/Kaidan will have the greatest role to play storywise, will be squadmates and will be the romances that they spend the most time developing in ME3. To me, that makes me feel very optimistic for Liara's future.
I feel the same, there's still one helluva lot of story to be told and I'm feeling really optimistic myself. Hell yeah I'm pissed of at the way Liara was handled in ME2, but I think things can only look up from here. Its only been a month or so since release, we just need to give it some time
Chin up Liara fans!
Oh, so just wait two years again and we'll get back to the story? Yeah that fills me with warm fuzzies. <_<
#3649
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 09:36
Keith Mattingly
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In my main playthrough of ME2, I stayed faithful to Liara. I mean, she had the looks, and a personallity that was beyond that. And in Mass Effect 3, I think the possible rewards of staying faithful to her would be having the option to propose marriage, and maybe even have her pregnant with Shephard's asari daughter. Plus, having romanced Liara, and her helping to recover Shephard's body, would possibly have a bigger impact on the romance.
Modifié par Keith Mattingly, 07 mars 2010 - 09:40 .
#3650
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 09:45
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Keith Mattingly wrote...
In my main playthrough of ME2, I stayed faithful to Liara. I mean, she had the looks, and a personallity that was beyond that. And in Mass Effect 3, I think the possible rewards of staying faithful to her would be having the option to propose marriage, and maybe even have her pregnant with Shephard's asari daughter. Plus, having romanced Liara, and her helping to recover Shephard's body, would possibly have a bigger impact on the romance.
My thoughts exactly! I'd love it if the reward in ME3 for stayinf faithful would be Shepard and Liara having children together. Plus, with Liara recovering Shepard's body, I think that the romance is the deepest in the ME series so far.
I love Liara, can't wait for the DLC and ME3.
