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[IndigoWolfe]

(because Twitter is over capacity right now)



US wins over Algiria with a goal in the 92nd minute. Yaaaaaaaassssss!!! Hollywood couldn't have done it better.

Modifié par IndigoWolfe, 23 juin 2010 - 03:57 .

[CM26617]

Hey, whoah, whoah, whoah! Sorry! Sorry!



What I was trying to say (yet failed) was that while the character development would be reasonable, this 'percieved' distortion was either vague or some just didn't between read the lines in order to connect as to...



ARGH! Why do I bother? You understand what I'm trying to say!

[ratzerman]

kraidy1117 wrote...

CM26617 wrote...

Being a beginning writer (in my private life), Id have to agree with what kraidy mentioned before. Its my experiance that if you know a character very well and are able to write them into a story with a minimum amount of problem, you'll do well.

Unfamiliarity, on the other hand can be detrimental to a character if it affects the final result, so I don't hold anything against Walters if this was the case.

That's the thing. Liara is not Walters type of character. He did the best job he could, was it bad? Yes, but it could have been worse.

I still hate him!

[Crimmsonwind]

kraidy1117 wrote...

CM26617 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

CM26617 wrote...

Being a beginning writer (in my private life), Id have to agree with what kraidy mentioned before. Its my experiance that if you know a character very well and are able to write them into a story with a minimum amount of problem, you'll do well.

Unfamiliarity, on the other hand can be detrimental to a character if it affects the final result, so I don't hold anything against Walters if this was the case.

I disagree. I understand what you're saying. But the scene was so terrible and botched, it can not be excused with being unfamiliar with the character. Besides, he better make himself familiar with the characters he's writing. The ME 1 LIs are not some nobodies, all of them are a central character of the game BioWare were making a successor to. If any random fan fiction writer can come up with a better version of that scene, I certainly expect a supposed professional to be able as well. Besides, it's not only Liara that was badly written, it was Shepard too (even though Shepard's behaviour was at least coherent with the rest of the game).

I can understand what you have mentioned before. I also take into account that there are other elements that mitigated the final result  (including Shepard's (lack of) dialogue), nor was I trying to pass that off as an excuse. I was merely examining one aspect of the situation, but you are right: there were other mitigating factors which contributed to the final scene being a bit OOC (out of character)

Not this again. Liara is not OOC! It was two years since ME and she has been doing stuff by her self! All the characters have changed, do you mean to tell me that all the ME characters are OOC in ME2 then?

If you went through what Liara did, you would be diffrent, because you know hevan forbid characters show growth.

I think it's the sheer switch of lifestyle that makes it a bit OOC. If it had been explained more and it was more understandable, then nobody would say it was totally out of character.

But how does a shy young aasari archaeologist go from digging up Prothean ruins to trying to ram one of the most powerful people in the galaxy into a coffee cup? Now I'm sure that traveling with Shepard definitely helped her to learn how to fight. And maybe knowing that she could handle herself better than before boosted her confidence a bit. She went through hell, yeah. But then the next thing we know, she's got herself a nice office in Illium and she's threatening to go all mindflayer on people. And she outright kills Nyxeris. That was something that surprised and bothered me. I was hoping she would ask you to back her up.

I can see that there is a path to her becoming the way she is, but we haven't been given the chance to fully explore it. So with those missing points of information, it's a bit hard to swallow her character.

[leeboi2]

I see you got my message on DA Jlb

[bjdbwea]

kraidy1117 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Fan fiction is diffrent then writing for a living.

Yes, if you write for a living, excuses like being unfamiliar with a character are much less acceptable.

... Are you being funny? Pleese tell me you are.

No, of course not.

Do you disagree that a professional writer better make himself familiar with an important character he has to write?

[jtav]

I hope you can't begin a relationship with Liara in ME3. When I want to romance her, I do. If I feel like romancing someone else, I turn her down. No need to reject her a second time. I made my choice.

[kraidy1117]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

CM26617 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

CM26617 wrote...

Being a beginning writer (in my private life), Id have to agree with what kraidy mentioned before. Its my experiance that if you know a character very well and are able to write them into a story with a minimum amount of problem, you'll do well.

Unfamiliarity, on the other hand can be detrimental to a character if it affects the final result, so I don't hold anything against Walters if this was the case.

I disagree. I understand what you're saying. But the scene was so terrible and botched, it can not be excused with being unfamiliar with the character. Besides, he better make himself familiar with the characters he's writing. The ME 1 LIs are not some nobodies, all of them are a central character of the game BioWare were making a successor to. If any random fan fiction writer can come up with a better version of that scene, I certainly expect a supposed professional to be able as well. Besides, it's not only Liara that was badly written, it was Shepard too (even though Shepard's behaviour was at least coherent with the rest of the game).

I can understand what you have mentioned before. I also take into account that there are other elements that mitigated the final result  (including Shepard's (lack of) dialogue), nor was I trying to pass that off as an excuse. I was merely examining one aspect of the situation, but you are right: there were other mitigating factors which contributed to the final scene being a bit OOC (out of character)

Not this again. Liara is not OOC! It was two years since ME and she has been doing stuff by her self! All the characters have changed, do you mean to tell me that all the ME characters are OOC in ME2 then?

If you went through what Liara did, you would be diffrent, because you know hevan forbid characters show growth.

I think it's the sheer switch of lifestyle that makes it a bit OOC. If it had been explained more and it was more understandable, then nobody would say it was totally out of character.

But how does a shy young aasari archaeologist go from digging up Prothean ruins to trying to ram one of the most powerful people in the galaxy into a coffee cup? Now I'm sure that traveling with Shepard definitely helped her to learn how to fight. And maybe knowing that she could handle herself better than before boosted her confidence a bit. She went through hell, yeah. But then the next thing we know, she's got herself a nice office in Illium and she's threatening to go all mindflayer on people. And she outright kills Nyxeris. That was something that surprised and bothered me. I was hoping she would ask you to back her up.

I can see that there is a path to her becoming the way she is, but we haven't been given the chance to fully explore it. So with those missing points of information, it's a bit hard to swallow her character.

Liara killed in ME. Nyxeris was a threat to her. I would have killed Nyxeris too if I was in Liara's shoes.  As for it being OOC, how. We don't know what happen in those two years. The comics don't need delve into that. They just showed how Cerberus got Shepards body, there is a gap. Plus Liara lost her mother, lost her lover/her friend, had someone she never trusted sacerfice himself for her, gave Shepards body to a extream group. You would change. Out of all the characters, she has been through the worse.

[leeboi2]

bjdbwea wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Fan fiction is diffrent then writing for a living.

Yes, if you write for a living, excuses like being unfamiliar with a character are much less acceptable.

... Are you being funny? Pleese tell me you are.

No, of course not.

Do you disagree that a professional writer better make himself familiar with an important character he has to write?

I agree, professional writers created the characters, so they should know them more...Come on Kraidy, it's common sense.

[jlb524]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

But then the next thing we know, she's got herself a nice office in Illium and she's threatening to go all mindflayer on people. And she outright kills Nyxeris. That was something that surprised and bothered me. I was hoping she would ask you to back her up.

This has nothing to do with anything, but when I read 'mindflayer' I thought of 'Illithids' and then when I thought of them, I thought of 'Illium', and when I thought of Illium, I thought of Liara.  

[kraidy1117]

bjdbwea wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Fan fiction is diffrent then writing for a living.

Yes, if you write for a living, excuses like being unfamiliar with a character are much less acceptable.

... Are you being funny? Pleese tell me you are.

No, of course not.

Do you disagree that a professional writer better make himself familiar with an important character he has to write?

Yes because all writers are perfect. Drew is like teh best writer out there and everything he does is perfect!

[jlb524]

leeboi2 wrote...

I see you got my message on DA Jlb

Yeah, thanks! 

[Crimmsonwind]

jlb524 wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

But then the next thing we know, she's got herself a nice office in Illium and she's threatening to go all mindflayer on people. And she outright kills Nyxeris. That was something that surprised and bothered me. I was hoping she would ask you to back her up.

This has nothing to do with anything, but when I read 'mindflayer' I thought of 'Illithids' and then when I thought of them, I thought of 'Illium', and when I thought of Illium, I thought of Liara.  

I was going to say Illithid, but I didn't think anyone would get it. XD

Edit: I just realized, that's a disturbing cycle. From Illithids to Liara. :X Oh no.

Modifié par Crimmsonwind, 23 juin 2010 - 04:08 .

[jtav]

Actual statistics may not bear this out, but my sense from reading the forum is that people who romanced Liara tended to move on to a ME2 romance less often than people who romanced Kaidan and, especially, Ashley. I wonder why.

[CM26617]

*facepalm* Why do I get the sinking feeling I unintentionally just created a thread 'Cold War' all of a sudden?



Ok, k1117, maybe what I mentioned before wasn't exactly clear or I had apparently missed an earlier page where this issue has been discussed. If I caused offence. I apologise.



As to the issue currently being discussed, I dont think I can provide further commmentary on this, as I intend to stay neutral on this issue from now on in.



Anyways, it early in the morning here and I need to go. I'll catch you guys later.

[kraidy1117]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Redemption was the perfect opportunity to elaborate and provide exposition on Liara's predicament and character change and development in ME2.

We all know how that turned out.

It was? How? The comic only explores how Cerberus got Shepard and why Liara began to hunt the SB. There is still a gap we have not seen. She changed in those two years, that's character growth and dev.

[Crimmsonwind]

jtav wrote...

Actual statistics may not bear this out, but my sense from reading the forum is that people who romanced Liara tended to move on to a ME2 romance less often than people who romanced Kaidan and, especially, Ashley. I wonder why.

I like to think it's because we're awesome, and Liara is awesome.

Later, CM.

[ratzerman]

jtav wrote...

Actual statistics may not bear this out, but my sense from reading the forum is that people who romanced Liara tended to move on to a ME2 romance less often than people who romanced Kaidan and, especially, Ashley. I wonder why.

I think a lot of Liara fans dumped her for Tali, since Tali's characterization was practically a carbon copy of ME1 Liara.  Out of the three ME1 love interests, I'd bet Kaidan had the most players stay faithful. 

[jlb524]

I still think the inevitable problem with Walters and his writing of Liara is just that, since her character was pushed to the side and her scenes were hacked up a bit, he didn't have the time needed to do the character justice. He tried to do too much with her in such a short period of time. Now, if the Liara character was given higher priority in the game, and more than just a short cameo, things could be different.



His writing priorities were probably:



1) New squad mates

2) The main story

3) New non-squad mate NPCs like Aria.

3) Kelly, the cook, Ken and Gabby

4) Bunch of other stuff

5) Liara and Ash/Kaidan

[bjdbwea]

jtav wrote...

Actual statistics may not bear this out, but my sense from reading the forum is that people who romanced Liara tended to move on to a ME2 romance less often than people who romanced Kaidan and, especially, Ashley. I wonder why.

I don't think it has to do with the quality of the romances. As much as Liara is my canon, I think Ashley was written just as well in ME 1 and almost as bad in ME 2. Kaidan I don't know, I think I've never seen his romance to completion.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 23 juin 2010 - 04:15 .

[IndigoWolfe]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I hope so.

I don't like the idea of Liara loving Shepard no matter what.  It gives her the creepy stalker vibe and is bad for her character, IMO.  I think if she was rejected by Shepard in ME1, she would be strong enough to move on in 2 years.  It wouldn't even make sense to me because, while Liara might have been attracted to any Shepard quickly after the first meeting, Liara definitely didn't fall in love with Shepard that quickly.  I think the Liara and Shepard love grew after they admitted their feelings for each other, and they spent more time together.  I think the meld they shared before Ilos is what really brought them together and would have been the event that changed Liara's feelings for Shepard from attraction and caring for Shepard to love.

Agreed. Not only is it bad for Liara's character like you said, J, it also cheapens and trivialises the actual romance that developed between Shepard and Liara for those of us that pursued her as a love interest. I like to think that what developed between my Shepard and Liara is something unique and special, and not something that Liara may develop regardless of reciprocation.

There is a difference between loyalty and love. And a difference between loving someone and being in love with someone.

[kraidy1117]

jlb524 wrote...

I still think the inevitable problem with Walters and his writing of Liara is just that, since her character was pushed to the side and her scenes were hacked up a bit, he didn't have the time needed to do the character justice. He tried to do too much with her in such a short period of time. Now, if the Liara character was given higher priority in the game, and more than just a short cameo, things could be different.

His writing priorities were probably:

1) New squad mates
2) The main story
3) New non-squad mate NPCs like Aria.
3) Kelly, the cook, Ken and Gabby
4) Bunch of other stuff
5) Liara and Ash/Kaidan

Plus he redid TIM compared to that wannabe TIM in the book, I hope Drew uses the TIM Walters made in the next book.....

[jlb524]

jtav wrote...

Actual statistics may not bear this out, but my sense from reading the forum is that people who romanced Liara tended to move on to a ME2 romance less often than people who romanced Kaidan and, especially, Ashley. I wonder why.

Hmmm...I've seen tons of people move on from Liara, many for either Tali or Miranda (just a few for Jack).  I haven't seen many FemShep players move on from her, just one or two who picked Garrus.