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Support Liara T'Soni for ME3 - Squadmate and LI


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#42501
Dinkamus_Littlelog

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Master Wolf wrote...

They didn't have to take Liara of the Normandy to make sure she is in ME3 Joker is on the Normandy and he is 100% certain that will be alive to ME3. They could heve Liara on the Normandy working as information broker from the ship it and she would not join missions because she would be busy gathering informatiom.


Yeah, but theyd have many people like myself harassing them over the pure idiocy of such a move.

Yes thats right, bring Liara back in a prominent role, and keep her on the Normandy away from any of the larger events that take place?

No, if they make good on it in ME3 by returning her to the squad, Ill think its a good idea with awful execution. Shoehorning Liara into a non-squadmate, non-critical role in ME2 would be fanservice on the level of Tali and Garrus, and look what that got them: potential death and limitation of their future role.

If they can make it worthwhile in ME3, I can ignore the crapfest of ME2 (provided an expansion doesnt dramatically remedy the situation) and just take comfort in the fact that they ensured she would be in the squad for ME3.

Its why Liara not being in the squad for ME3 is cause for an instant "no buy" from me, and a farewell to buying Bioware games. I have been patient - not quietly and composed patience, but patience none the less - and having all that wasted by Bioware being lazy, evasive and misleading just completely destroys my interest in playing any Bioware games ever again.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 07 juillet 2010 - 09:00 .


#42502
Master Wolf

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Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Master Wolf wrote...

They didn't have to take Liara of the Normandy to make sure she is in ME3 Joker is on the Normandy and he is 100% certain that will be alive to ME3. They could heve Liara on the Normandy working as information broker from the ship it and she would not join missions because she would be busy gathering informatiom.


Yeah, but theyd have many people like myself harassing them over the pure idiocy of such a move.

Yes thats right, bring Liara back in a prominent role, and keep her on the Normandy away from any of the larger events that take place?

No, if they make good on it in ME3 by returning her to the squad, Ill think its a good idea with awful execution. Shoehorning Liara into a non-squadmate, non-critical role in ME2 would be fanservice on the level of Tali and Garrus, and look what that got them: potential death and limitation of their future role.

If they can make it worthwhile in ME3, I can ignore the crapfest of ME2 (provided an expansion doesnt dramatically remedy the situation) and just take comfort in the fact that they ensured she would be in the squad for ME3.

Its why Liara not being in the squad for ME3 is cause for an instant "no buy" from me, and a farewell to buying Bioware games. I have been patient - not quietly and composed patience, but patience none the less - and having all that wasted by Bioware being lazy, evasive and misleading just completely destroys my interest in playing any Bioware games ever again.


It didin't had to be a irrelevant role the collectors have business with the SB so during the game she would give Shepard relevant information about the collectors. It would be Liara continuing to have an important role not as squad mate but as quest giver the importante role as squadmate would be reserved for ME3.

#42503
Master Wolf

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Liara could also be a squadmate and continue to be impossible to kill they just had to came up with a way to keep her out of the final misson they came up with one to kept Joker from being abducted by the collectors when they borded the Normandy.

#42504
Captain Iglo

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I would have expected that from a game which is supposed to be build on choices that you would have to simply "live with the consequences" that Liara is dead in me3 (if she died in suicide mission)...you know keep exactly the fact why you would need her in Me3...but simply punish the player if she had died...or force him to find another way

Modifié par Captain Iglo, 07 juillet 2010 - 09:40 .


#42505
Master Wolf

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Captain Iglo wrote...

I would have expected that from a game which is supposed to be build on choices that you would have to simply "live with the consequences" that Liara is dead in me3 (if she died in suicide mission)...you know keep exactly the fact why you would need her in Me3...but simply punish the player if she had died...or force him to find another way


That way is how the ME trilogy should have been you made a wrong choice you pay the consequences but the problem is that they want to make the games also for new players so they can't be punished by decisions that they didin't have the oportunity to make IMO this will reduce the quality of the all trilogy.

Modifié par Master Wolf, 07 juillet 2010 - 09:49 .


#42506
Marcin K

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time to charge up-going offline overnight, cya all tomorrow:)

#42507
Captain Iglo

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Master Wolf wrote...

Captain Iglo wrote...

I would have expected that from a game which is supposed to be build on choices that you would have to simply "live with the consequences" that Liara is dead in me3 (if she died in suicide mission)...you know keep exactly the fact why you would need her in Me3...but simply punish the player if she had died...or force him to find another way


That way is how the ME trilogy should have been you made a wrong choice you pay the consequences but the problem is that they want to make the games also for new players so they can't be punished by decisions that they didin't have the oportunity to make IMO this will reduce the quality of the all trilogy.


Yeah....they really played it save with the consequences...I mean ya really can feel that not one of your me2 squad member will have any important role in me3 :/
But I can see where they come from...I talk with and read about a lot of people who played me2 but didnt played me1....

#42508
Nerevar-as

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And the same goes for ME3. So Rachni, Geth, Krogan, etc won´t matter that much in the end probably. The only alternative I see is keeping the default Renegade for ME3, but then how will the Paragon path inthat game be? As much as I would love it, I don´t think they´ll give the player a pyrric victory if they didn´t play 1 and 2.

It won´t help Bioware if Witcher 2 handles this better, though there were not really world changing choices in that game.

About Liara, we know default will be no romance, but a way to avoid having to many LIs would be giving a second chance to the previous one. I mean, after all the Kirk type is no longer that popular, isn´t it?

#42509
tommyt_1994

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Hello Liara fans, I'm a huge Liara fan here. Her personality and looks appeal the most to me, and I'd like to ask a question if you guys don't mind. How do you all feel about her development in ME2? How do you justify the change? Do you think she will always be like this? How do you think the actions that went down in the comics affect(or effect? I can never tell) her personality? Also, how do you think she'll develop in ME3 or DLC?



Any input would be greatly appreciated, I would have a clue where to look in this 1700 page thread lol. Feel free to PM me or post here if you'd like.



PS: long posts do not freighten me :D

#42510
Master Wolf

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I realy belive that Liara and the Virmire survivor would be romace options for the new players in ME the fact that Liara says the "I couldn't let you go" line even to Shepards that haven't romanced her and Kelly asking if Shepard still have felings for the virmire survivor even if he has not been romanced IMO are indications that they will be romance options for all players in ME3.

#42511
tommyt_1994

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^^^ wouldn't* I'm on my iPod so it won't let me edit my post. Sorry for the double post

#42512
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Hello all.

I'm back with a new and improved screen name.

#42513
bjdbwea

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tommyt_1994 wrote...

Hello Liara fans, I'm a huge Liara fan here. Her personality and looks appeal the most to me, and I'd like to ask a question if you guys don't mind. How do you all feel about her development in ME2? How do you justify the change? Do you think she will always be like this? How do you think the actions that went down in the comics affect(or effect? I can never tell) her personality? Also, how do you think she'll develop in ME3 or DLC?


Welcome, fellow Liara fan. How about you tell us your opinion on those matters?

My opinion is that her development in ME 2 was the negative icing on the cake that is an overall disappointing game. I can't justify the change, but it's not my job either, it's the developer's. I'm not against changes in characters, they can make things interesting, but certainly not if it's presented and explained so badly. It is obvious that BioWare couldn't be bothered to spend much effort on her role - so then why try to cram in such a drastic change in the first place? Just give the fans a nice small reunion scene, come up whatever contrived "explanation" why she can't join the crew, and be done with it.

That would have been better for sure, but the matter of the fact remains that Liara and the Virmire survivor had to be a part of the crew, there's no excuse for not providing that.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 07 juillet 2010 - 11:30 .


#42514
Master Wolf

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bjdbwea wrote...
so then why try to cram in such a drastic change in the first place? Just give the fans a nice small reunion scene, come up whatever contrived "explanation" why she can't join the crew, and be done with it.


IMO the reason for keeping Liara and the virmire survivor was to make way for the new LI's that's why Liara had that  change, and it's also the reson why the virmire suvivor has that kind of reaction in horizon to make cheating understandble. Because if the reason was just to keep then alive for ME3 they didn't have to make such bad reunions or implement the troubled relationship.

Modifié par Master Wolf, 08 juillet 2010 - 12:05 .


#42515
jtav

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One of the worst mistakes they made was not trusting their writing enough to let the new LIs stand or fall on their own. Instead, they changed the ME LIs to make them less appealing. As a fan of both sets, this makes me sad. Not just because of character derailment but because of the implication that the new choices stood no chance otherwise.

#42516
bjdbwea

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I'm still not sure know if that was the reason for diminishing the ME 1 LIs, but if it was, at least they noticed that their writing for ME 2 wasn't up to previous BioWare standards. Maybe it was too late to improve for this game, but hopefully they'll try to do better with the next.

#42517
jlb524

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tommyt_1994 wrote...

Hello Liara fans, I'm a huge Liara fan here. Her personality and looks appeal the most to me, and I'd like to ask a question if you guys don't mind. How do you all feel about her development in ME2? How do you justify the change? Do you think she will always be like this? How do you think the actions that went down in the comics affect(or effect? I can never tell) her personality? Also, how do you think she'll develop in ME3 or DLC?

Any input would be greatly appreciated, I would have a clue where to look in this 1700 page thread lol. Feel free to PM me or post here if you'd like.

PS: long posts do not freighten me :D


I'm OK with her development in ME2, I just wish they would have spent more time on it.  How is the change justified in my eyes?  Well, it may not really be a change of character...it's just a different side of her that we didn't get to see in ME1.  The circumstances in ME2 are very different from what they are in ME1, and Liara has been through a lot.  I think this has brought other aspects of her personality to front and center...she seems a bit more impulsive in ME2 than she did in ME1, for example, though I think she was always a bit impulsive...we just really never got to see this.

I don't know if she will always be 'like this'...I think her current behavior is influenced by the situation she has found herself in.  If this changes, she will 'change' in a sense.  People are influenced by their environment more so than we like to think.

As for the future, I have no idea.  Some think that Shepard will be able to influence her down either a more Paragon or a more Renegade path.  This is plausible, given some of the things BW has done in the past with this.

#42518
tommyt_1994

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Another thing I immediately noticed, why do you think her voice changed? Her voice is definetly different in ME2. Was there a reason behind this I missed?

#42519
jlb524

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tommyt_1994 wrote...

Another thing I immediately noticed, why do you think her voice changed? Her voice is definetly different in ME2. Was there a reason behind this I missed?


Yeah, she sounds different most of the time, only sounding like ME1 Liara when:

1) She's on the Normandy in the destruction scene.
2)  She screams 'Shepard' after Shep first walks into the room.

Other than that, she has a lower and raspier voice.  The reason is probably because she's tired/stressed, or she has just adopted that tone in order to intimidate and deal with thugs. 

#42520
Worrywort

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jlb524 wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Another thing I immediately noticed, why do you think her voice changed? Her voice is definetly different in ME2. Was there a reason behind this I missed?


Yeah, she sounds different most of the time, only sounding like ME1 Liara when:

1) She's on the Normandy in the destruction scene.
2)  She screams 'Shepard' after Shep first walks into the room.

Other than that, she has a lower and raspier voice.  The reason is probably because she's tired/stressed, or she has just adopted that tone in order to intimidate and deal with thugs. 

I think you're exactly right on that.

#42521
Spornicus

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Worrywort wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Another thing I immediately noticed, why do you think her voice changed? Her voice is definetly different in ME2. Was there a reason behind this I missed?


Yeah, she sounds different most of the time, only sounding like ME1 Liara when:

1) She's on the Normandy in the destruction scene.
2)  She screams 'Shepard' after Shep first walks into the room.

Other than that, she has a lower and raspier voice.  The reason is probably because she's tired/stressed, or she has just adopted that tone in order to intimidate and deal with thugs. 

I think you're exactly right on that.


She can't sound like her innocent-sounding self in the first one. She needs to sound severe and humorless, in order to be a more powerful information broker. She probably got some tips from Aria.

#42522
Worrywort

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tommyt_1994 wrote...

Hello Liara fans, I'm a huge Liara fan here. Her personality and looks appeal the most to me, and I'd like to ask a question if you guys don't mind. How do you all feel about her development in ME2? How do you justify the change? Do you think she will always be like this? How do you think the actions that went down in the comics affect(or effect? I can never tell) her personality? Also, how do you think she'll develop in ME3 or DLC?

Any input would be greatly appreciated, I would have a clue where to look in this 1700 page thread lol. Feel free to PM me or post here if you'd like.

PS: long posts do not freighten me :D


Are you undercover for Bioware trying to see what the fans have to say about Liara? :P Anyway..

That one shot in the dialog tree really made me feel Liara cared about Shepard (especially due to the delivery of Ali Hillis, though I wish there was LI specific dialog in that confession.), but I really wish it would have been more front and center, and not an easily missable investigate choice. What's worse is that if you don't choose it before "Help" or whatever the other option was, it goes away completely! I had to redo my ME2 playthrough with my main Shepard because of that! 

I justify the change in personality thinking that Liara probably got tired of dealing with so many unhappy clients for so long and acts a lot more impulsive and harsher because of it, though we did get to breakthrough and see what I consider her true personality to be with that aforementioned dialog choice. I don't think she'll stay that way for the ending of the trilogy, hopefully because she'll join Shepard and we can influence her into being her old self again (or to be more renegade if we choose).

I never read anything more than Issue 1 of the comics that came with my CE of ME2, but I heard they were a horrible representation of Liara, so I hope they don't affect anything too much.

So overall.. I thought it was disappointing. Maybe you couldn't tell from what I said, but I was pretty unhappy with her cameo in ME2. What can I say? I'm an eternal optimist.

Modifié par Worrywort, 08 juillet 2010 - 07:28 .


#42523
Marcin K

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hey all
EDIT: WOW!!! MY GOODBYE AND HELLO ON THE SAME PAGE-SHOCKED  :blink::blink::blink::blink::blink:

Modifié par Marcin R, 08 juillet 2010 - 11:11 .


#42524
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*

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tommyt_1994 wrote...

Hello Liara fans, I'm a huge Liara fan here. Her personality and looks appeal the most to me, and I'd like to ask a question if you guys don't mind. How do you all feel about her development in ME2? How do you justify the change? Do you think she will always be like this? How do you think the actions that went down in the comics affect(or effect? I can never tell) her personality? Also, how do you think she'll develop in ME3 or DLC?

Any input would be greatly appreciated, I would have a clue where to look in this 1700 page thread lol. Feel free to PM me or post here if you'd like.

PS: long posts do not freighten me :D


Hello there, welcome.

I do not mind Liara's character development in ME2, and the direction her current character and story arc is taking her. It has the potential to be extremely compelling and interesting, and could make me love Liara to an even greater extent, and truly enrich her character. The problem lies in it's execution, I feel. The whole situation is in dire need of some serious elaboration, clarification and exposition. As it stands, the whole thing feels a little vague and unexplained, and whilst Liara's actions and her ME2 character itself can be analysed and rationalised in certain believeable ways, nothing is concrete at this point. That's why I hope that the DLC will expand on this matter, and deliver excellent quality Liara content.

Do I justify the "change"? I do not think "change" is the most accurate term to use here. In my opinion, Liara hasn't suddenly become that ruthless or murderous. She's suffered a hell of a lot, and is tormented by her pain and self-loathes for what she has done. In order to track down the Shadow Broker, she is having to do things that she herself finds abhorrent, but sees as a necessity to achieve her goal. It's not so much that Liara has changed, it's just that she finds herself in a truly terrible predicament and situation, and is having to act in a way that she is clearly uncomfortable with. In that respect, yes I feel Liara's "change" is justified. She's jaded, more cynical and has lost alot of her idealism and worldliness, but has not become a ruthless, murderous, cold-hearted ice queen like some try to make out. The true Liara is still there, just suffering heavily.

I don't believe she will always be like this, as I feel that ultimately Paragon Shepards will be able to comfort her, and help ease her of her pain. Renegades will encourage her to remain ruthless, however. That's what I forsee will be the case with Liara in ME3, that the player may have an alignment influence over her, similar to Ashley, Kaidan and Garrus in ME1.

Like I said earlier, the events depicted in the comics as well as their resulting effects and influences have affected Liara profoundly. She's no longer idealistic and a little naive. She's experienced the darker, seedier side to the galaxy in the Terminus Systems. Couple that with the aforementioned guilt and fear over handing Shepard over to Cerberus in order to see her revived, her fear Shepard will hate her, Feron sacrificing himself and a whole other host of more nuanced and subtle reasons, then yes I do feel that what Liara has experienced after the destruction of the Normandy has affected her to a great extent. Hell, Liara's Break the Cutie arguably started the moment she left Therum.

Hope my answers provided some insight!

#42525
jtav

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Morning guys. Can I hide out here for a while?