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[jlb524]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Is the truth. My theory and analysis could turn out to be a load of old crap!

I hope that's not the case, though, and that what I suggested was intended by the writers.

Of course it could be crap.  It is still a good theory given what we know.  It's still an interesting possibility to consider and discuss, among others.

[Master Wolf]

jlb524 wrote...


I'm not trying to compare her ME1 reasons to her ME2 reasons...ME2 is far more complicated.


I just don't think it's easy for her to put her feelings and emotions into words, as I assume, she probably has never been close enough to someone and has never had the experience with doing such, and has probably never felt the desire to do so.  I see her as being somewhat stoic.

Yeah I also see Liara a as somewhat stoic that's why I say that if Liara was being affect for the events it would show because people would notice that her stoic personality was starting to fall if the events didin't had a major impact on her she would be able to maitain her stoic personality.

But that's just how I see it.

[Master Wolf]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

What I am also attempting to convey is that Liara's negative reactions to the pain and despair she has suffered will not manifest themselves until her grief reaches a certain point. The pain that Liara endures in ME is not sufficient enough to induce this reaction from her character on it's own, but couple it with what she suffers with inbetween the events of ME1 and 2, and it results in the jaded, cynical Liara we see in ME2. It's cumulative.

I understand that but what I'm saying is that although her pain in ME1 is not enought for us to see a reaction it would be enought for us to see some changes in Liara at leats that's my opinion.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

That is pretty much the reason why I look foward to ME3. Once we play it, we can find out if the ME2 story truly deserve all the hate it does right now (from me and a few others). Or was it all part of a greater scheme that just wasn't excecuted very well?

Yeah, I do agree, as much as I detest ME2s story and its characterisation of Shepard etc. etc.

Its never going to fix it fully. No matter how good ME3 is, ME is always going to be a "nice series, shame about the second act" trilogy to me. ME2 will always suck. Its just a question of if it was a necessary kind of suck, or just a careless, greedy, "they just screwed it up when they had such a good start" kind of suck.

Just like with the Liara role in ME2, is it going to be a necessary part of making certain transitions from ME1 to ME3, or just one big, poorly thought out waste of time?

ME2 wasn't a "necessary kind of suck" since by the end of the day. Many ideas of ME2 are really good, it's just that they all just so horribly excecuted that it was ruined. ME3 can vindicate ME2, but ME2 could always have been done alot better.

[bjdbwea]

Lizardviking wrote...

ME2 wasn't a "necessary kind of suck" since by the end of the day. Many ideas of ME2 are really good, it's just that they all just so horribly excecuted that it was ruined. ME3 can vindicate ME2, but ME2 could always have been done alot better.

That is very true.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Master Wolf wrote...
I understand that but what I'm saying is that although her pain in ME1 is not enought for us to see a reaction it would be enought for us to see some changes in Liara at leats that's my opinion.

Well, look at how Liara loses her composure, and lets her inhibitions go when Benezia begins to succumb to the indoctrination again, as shown in this gif:



I'm not saying that this is irrefutable proof, however it is evidence, I believe.

I wish Benezia's VA did a better job at that scene. It could been great then.

[jlb524]

I think we are forgetting that Liara's ME1 character was hacked a bit too. Also, her character suffers due to the fact that the player can rescue her really late in the game.



Also, parts of the Noveria/Benezia scene were cut, and the Therum mission was originally to be longer and more involved than it was.



And then there's the horrid things they did to her character in Redemption. They owe her big time.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

I wish Benezia's VA did a better job at that scene. It could been great then.

I have been told that the scene in which both Liara and Shepard confront Benezia was originally alot longer, and was cut to pieces and them reassembled. That could be the reason as to why some of Benezia's dialogue sounds so unnatural.

The scene where Benezia dies was also just so goofy. Mostly because is just looked like she sat down, they could have atleast have her cough some blood up because she was, ya know. Dying?

It's somewhat annoying that what was supposed to be a tragic moment (which was important for my favorite character) ended up making me chuckle abit.

[Master Wolf]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Master Wolf wrote...
I understand that but what I'm saying is that although her pain in ME1 is not enought for us to see a reaction it would be enought for us to see some changes in Liara at leats that's my opinion.

Well, look at how Liara loses her composure, and lets her inhibitions go when Benezia begins to succumb to the indoctrination again, as shown in this gif:



I'm not saying that this is irrefutable proof, however it is evidence, I believe.

I know but what you are sugesting is that all that Liara has gone throught have add up and result in her change in ME2 and I agree but I wish that we saw any indications of this in ME1 that gif shows Liara grief for Benezia but in the Normandy she shows that she have deal with that and that althought she is sad it don't seam to change Liara personality this is because she don't want Shepard realize that it had affect in a major way it could be but if they want to justify her change with all that she has gone throught they must give some indictions of that the events are affecting her before the big change happens.

[bjdbwea]

I think the scene worked well enough. It's the first time I read that it was supposed to be longer. If that's the case, then obviously they cut corners in ME 1 too. Happens during any game development though. But only in ME 2 did I really think it was too much.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 05 août 2010 - 03:37 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Lizardviking wrote...


ME2 wasn't a "necessary kind of suck" since by the end of the day. Many ideas of ME2 are really good, it's just that they all just so horribly excecuted that it was ruined. ME3 can vindicate ME2, but ME2 could always have been done alot better.

Thats where we disagree. I think ME2 was bad ideas executed badly. What did we actually learn? Nothing of any real significance, aside from the whole "reapers are made from people pate". There were a few instances of things potentially foreshadowed for ME3, but on the whole it felt like a waste of time. But if its made up for by basically preserving the right elements for ME3, you can forgive it.

A lot of people like to claim "of course it wasnt as good, its the second act, thats never as important as the introduction or the resolution". I dont fully agree with them on that, but I can at least understand "saving some eggs for the ME3 basket".

Like I said, thats what I hope for with Liara too. It would have been nice to have three games worth of great story and character continuity, but since that isnt the case, Id take a disappointing second act holding back for the finale than getting too carried away before youre even at the final act.

[jlb524]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Yep, originally Therum was named "Caleston", and was a section of the game comparable in size and duration to Feros, which would have ultimately resulted in Liara being recruited, of course. However, due to time constraints, most of the content was cut and Caleston became Therum. I believe that the location of the final fight in Bring Down the Sky is a repurposed version of what would have been the hub area of Caleston.

Yeah, that's true...they reused that level they had scrapped for the BDtS DLC.

So, really, Liara's character has gotten the shaft three times already

[Master Wolf]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Yeah, that's true...they reused that level they had scrapped for the BDtS DLC.

So, really, Liara's character has gotten the shaft three times already

You know what this means? Extra time, care and attention will be put into the Liara DLC in order to attone for the neglect her character has suffered until now!

Yeah you are right some things change.

But there also things that never change

I hope that at least Liara role in ME3 is a very good one and very well written and executed.

Modifié par Master Wolf, 05 août 2010 - 04:09 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...


ME2 wasn't a "necessary kind of suck" since by the end of the day. Many ideas of ME2 are really good, it's just that they all just so horribly excecuted that it was ruined. ME3 can vindicate ME2, but ME2 could always have been done alot better.

Thats where we disagree. I think ME2 was bad ideas executed badly. What did we actually learn? Nothing of any real significance, aside from the whole "reapers are made from people pate". There were a few instances of things potentially foreshadowed for ME3, but on the whole it felt like a waste of time. But if its made up for by basically preserving the right elements for ME3, you can forgive it.

A lot of people like to claim "of course it wasnt as good, its the second act, thats never as important as the introduction or the resolution". I dont fully agree with them on that, but I can at least understand "saving some eggs for the ME3 basket".

Like I said, thats what I hope for with Liara too. It would have been nice to have three games worth of great story and character continuity, but since that isnt the case, Id take a disappointing second act holding back for the finale than getting too carried away before youre even at the final act.

Bad ideas? I felt most of them were decent enough.

Dying then resurected? Could have been interesting and dramatic and filled with all that dark story we wanted from a second act. Too bad that as it is now, it's nothing than a terrible excuse to reset certain aspect of the story and a reason to jump a few years foward.

Working for a terrorist orginasation that if you are a paragon/SS might hate? Could have interesting. Too bad that the way they did it felt so forced on us and Shepard's indiffrence towards is one the most retarded things ever.

Collectors abducting entire colonies? Could have been interesting. Too bad that the Collectors didn't get enough screentime, their little evil "plan" wouldn't work and Harbinger is a ****ing idiot.

I could go on. But I felt like I made my point. The only really bad thing was the council still acting like idiots, mostly because it pisses on the ending of ME1.

[jlb524]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Yeah, that's true...they reused that level they had scrapped for the BDtS DLC.

So, really, Liara's character has gotten the shaft three times already

You know what this means? Extra time, care and attention will be put into the Liara DLC in order to attone for the neglect her character has suffered until now!

That would be nice. 

[jlb524]

Master Wolf wrote...

But there also things that never change

Yes, Liara is still awesome, and always will be.

[Master Wolf]

jlb524 wrote...

Master Wolf wrote...

But there also things that never change

Yes, Liara is still awesome, and always will be.

Yeah Liara is awesome and her character deserves much more than a DLC but for now we will have to be happy with that and wait that her role in ME3 will compensate all the other bad things that her character have to suufer during this two games.

[xlI ReFLeX lIx]

I SUPPORT THIS I LUV LIARA! I STAYED LOYAL AND I WANT IT TO BE WORTH IT. THERES NO MASS EFFECT WITH OUT LIARA T'SONI!!!!