50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Pwnisher]

The Liara reunion scene was poorly executed. What I wanted Liara to do is to be in disbelief or that she would be crying tears of shock or joy because she is finally reunited with the one she lost on a fateful day two years prior to the current date.

[tmk]

jlb524 wrote...
Most casual fans that pick up and play the game once will not care to put much thought into her ME2 role, though.

Well, it's their loss really. If someone can't be arsed to give a damn, it's no loss of mine as far as I'm concerned... and I'm not sure I'd like all characters just laying themselves on a silver platter and color-coding their emotions for casual fans' convenience.

Nightwriter wrote...
1. Her reason for not coming sucks. I don't have a problem with her not coming, but they could think of a better reason.

On one hand, any reason kinda sucks when Saving The Galaxy is at stake. On the other hand... she followed you on a suicide mission once, nearly died along with you, went on a nearly-suicidal crusade of her own to save your corpse's life, has two years to think about everything that happened.

She has a purpose in her life, which is important to her, and tbh seems kinda important to me too - she's trying to stop a pretty shady individual who's known to deal with the Collectors. Then you show up, working for Cerberus, and try to drag her off to another suicide mission, where it's not certain if you'll even make it to the other side of the relay. And then you get pissed because she doesn't just drop everything that's on her plate right now just so she can risk her life with you again.

It's not like your mission is doomed to fail if she doesn't join. On the other hand, her mission will likely fail if she leaves. In a way, she's doing her part in saving the galaxy from the Collector threat (among other things), and for one thing I'm not sure it's wise to put all the people you know and trust on a boat that's headed for presumably one-way trip in a few weeks.

Nightwriter wrote...
2. She doesn't even address the romance, and you've been dead two years. All I needed was for her to say "I don't know where we're at." Instead she says nothing. NOTHING.

3. It'll sound arrogant, but I didn't feel like the scene treated the reunion as a big enough deal. She knows Cerberus is bringing you back, but the reality of that should impact her when she finally sees you. I wanted to see disbelief, and emotion. 

4. Shepard wasn't allowed to say a lot of the things I wanted to say. 

5. She seems vaguely out of character. The transition feels like it came from nowhere.

Basically, you're saying she doesn't exactly fit what you think she is, and the scene doesn't fit what you'd do. Well, she's a separate character with her own personality, and I don't see that personality as completely non-believable. Maybe it's not exactly the way I wanted it, but you can't always have someone else to be the way you want.

And handling the relationship is a **** of a mess, because there are thousands of people who each have their own different concept of how the reunion should have taken place on their playthrough. I mean, there are even people who ship their Liara with Sheploo! And Bioware has to make something that kinda sorta works for everyone. With a six-choice dialogue wheel. I say they didn't do too bad in presenting the key storyline-relevant stuff, the rest you can fill in with your imagination.

Modifié par tmk, 13 août 2010 - 04:34 .

[Nightwriter]

tmk wrote...

Well, it's their loss really. If someone can't be arsed to give a damn, it's no loss of mine as far as I'm concerned... and I'm not sure I'd like all characters just laying themselves on a silver platter and color-coding their emotions for casual fans' convenience.

Now, that's a bit unfair.

Not only do you have to look really closely to understand Liara's actions, you have to practically invent stuff that isn't there. Your average person is not going to do the writers' job for them, and actually fabricate new background.

tmk wrote...

On one hand, any reason kinda sucks when Saving The Galaxy is at stake. On the other hand... she followed you on a suicide mission once, nearly died along with you, went on a nearly-suicidal crusade of her own to save your corpse's life, has two years to think about everything that happened.

She has a purpose in her life, which is important to her, and tbh seems kinda important to me too - she's trying to stop a pretty shady individual who's known to deal with the Collectors. Then you show up, working for Cerberus, and try to drag her off to another suicide mission, where it's not certain if you'll even make it to the other side of the relay, and get pissed because she doesn't just drop everything that's in her life right now just so she can risk her life with you again.

It's not like your mission is doomed to fail if she doesn't join. On the other hand, her mission will likely fail if she leaves. In a way, she's doing her part in saving the galaxy from the Collector threat (among other things), and for one thing I'm not sure it's wise to put all the people you know and trust on a boat that's headed for presumably one-way trip in a few weeks.

I could've presented it better. I tried once, just to see if I could. It sounded scarily like what you just wrote.

tmk wrote...

Basically, you're saying she doesn't exactly fit what you think she is, and the scene doesn't fit what you'd do. Well, she's a separate character with her own personality, and I don't see that personality as completely unbelievable. Maybe it's not exactly the way I wanted it, but you can't always have someone else to be the way you want.

And handling the relationship is a **** of a mess, because there are thousands of people who each have their own different concept of how the reunion should have taken place on their playthrough. I mean, there are even people who ship their Liara with Sheploo! And Bioware has to make something that kinda sorta works for everyone. With a six-choice dialogue wheel. I say they didn't do too bad in presenting the key storyline-relevant stuff, the rest you can fill in with your imagination.

No. I'm saying Liara deserved better writing. Even a day or two's worth of extra attention could've made the scene better.

The only thing Liara needed to say was that she didn't know where the relationship was at now, and we both had causes that needed us.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 13 août 2010 - 04:37 .

[ADLegend21]

yay Liara!

[jlb524]

tmk wrote...

Well, it's their loss really. If someone can't be arsed to give a damn, it's no loss of mine as far as I'm concerned... and I'm not sure I'd like all characters just laying themselves on a silver platter and color-coding their emotions for casual fans' convenience.

It is, but I still think the thing was hacked up and content was cut do to them repurposing part of her ME2 role and the business with the SB into the Redemption comic. 

Plus, casual fans aren't going to dig deeper into any character, even ones that were written well or had everything laid out on a platter.

[tmk]

Nightwriter wrote...
Not only do you have to look really closely to understand Liara's actions, you have to practically invent stuff that isn't there. Your average person is not going to do the writers' job for them, and actually fabricate new background.

I don't believe I've fabricated anything that wasn't there.

Nightwriter wrote...
I could've presented it better. I tried once, just to see if I could. It sounded scarily like what you just wrote.

Well, then maybe we could assume that our Shepards and Liaras just understood all that without the need to spell it out. I mean, seriously, I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable asking her to spell it out for me on why exactly she doesn't feel like coming along for another suicide mission. I'd respect her enough to assume she has a good reason if she refuses.

Nightwriter wrote...
The only thing Liara needed to say was that she didn't know where the relationship was at now, and we both had causes that needed us.

What if she isn't unsure about where your relationship is? Or what if Bioware is unsure about whether she'd be unsure on your playthrough. I think they did what they wanted pretty well - give you a plausible excuse to move on if you want to, without giving you an actual reason - as part of giving you as much freedom to make up your story as they can feasibly provide. I suppose it could be more proper to have a breakup option, but then I'm pretty sure that if you start a new romance it's kinda implied.

jlb524 wrote...
It is, but I still think the thing was hacked up and content was cut do to them repurposing part of her ME2 role and the business with the SB into the Redemption comic.

Possibly, but if you start thinking in those terms you might as well not play anything beyond ME1. Because everything after the first installment could potentially be result of a cut, fanservice or other form of derailment. Hell, a lot of stuff was cut even from the original (including the actual location we were supposed to find Liara in).

jlb524 wrote...
Plus, casual fans aren't going to dig deeper into any character, even ones that were written well or had everything laid out on a platter.

Then why should we dig deeper into casual fans?

Modifié par tmk, 13 août 2010 - 04:58 .

[Nightwriter]

tmk wrote...

I don't believe I've fabricated anything that wasn't there.

Well maybe I should explain.

Why won't Liara come with you? She has to find the Shadow Broker.

Why does she have to find the Shadow Broker? To avenge her friend Feron.

When did Feron become her friend? In the comics.

Where in the comics is there evidence of this deep bond of friendship that means so much to her?

...

You see. Now in order to work around this we need to think of reasons why Feron suddenly means so much to Liara and why this is so important to her.

tmk wrote...

Well, then maybe we could assume that our Shepards and Liaras just understood all that without the need to spell it out. I mean, seriously, I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable asking her to spell it out for me on why exactly she doesn't feel like coming along for another suicide mission. I'd respect her enough to assume she has a good reason if she refuses.

Well I agree, they don't need to spell everything out for us in the way that Liara outright tells us, but they can illustrate it better so that it becomes easier for us to interpret.

I understand you don't think we should give a damn about whether other fans interpret it right or not, I just think it's a shame Liara's worth isn't more accessible to the majority of people in this way.

tmk wrote...

What if she isn't unsure about where your relationship is? Or what if Bioware is unsure about whether she'd be unsure on your playthrough. I think they did what they wanted pretty well - give you a plausible excuse to move on if you want to, without giving you an actual reason - as part of giving you as much freedom to make up your story as they can feasibly provide. I suppose it could be more proper to have a breakup option, but then I'm pretty sure that if you start a new romance it's kinda implied.

I've been debating with people about this for forever. I'm accused of "cheating" constantly. Most Liara fans tell me the relationship was most certainly not over.

We have Liara fans who were unsatisfied with the lack of romantic dialogue, and we have non-Liara fans who were unsatisfied that you couldn't break up outright. So tell me, who did this compromise benefit?

[tmk]

Nightwriter wrote...
Where in the comics is there evidence of this deep bond of friendship that means so much to her?

...

You see. Now in order to work around this we need to think of reasons why Feron suddenly means so much to Liara and why this is so important to her.

Well, for one thing, he kinda sacrificed himself to allow her to leave. I don't see Liara just shrugging it off going "meh, I didn't really know him anyways so who cares". Even if she didn't have any particular bond of friendship, she'd still feel indebted. And besides, it's not just about Feron (though he's all that she mentions for the most part, because the rest deals with her giving Shepard to Cerberus, which is something she's not comfortable discussing).

Nightwriter wrote...
I understand you don't think we should give a damn about whether other fans interpret it right or not, I just think it's a shame Liara's worth isn't more accessible to the majority of people in this way.

I don't think I should care if the fans that don't care to put effort to interpret it may be unable to interpret. If you do put some thought into it, I think there is enough data to do that. And due to the nature of ME lego storyline, I'm not sure you can say that someone interpreted it "right" or "wrong" as long as their interpretation fits within the common canon (which is left kinda loose on purpose).

Nightwriter wrote...
I've been debating with people about this for forever. I'm accused of "cheating" constantly. Most Liara fans tell me the relationship was most certainly not over.

Well, now that's what I call a good place for a healthy DGAF  It's kinda up to you to decide whether you "cheated" or not. Well, technically it's up to whoever writes the script of ME3, but certainly not up to other Liara fans.

Nightwriter wrote...
We have Liara fans who were unsatisfied with the lack of romantic dialogue, and we have non-Liara fans who were unsatisfied that you couldn't break up outright. So tell me, who did this compromise benefit?

And then you'd have the same fans complaining that the romantic dialogue is too cheesy and not romantic enough for their tastes, and yet other fans complaining that they must officially break it off with Liara to have a quick shag with Jack, and all sorts of other stuff. You try to give people some semblance of freedom - they complain that the "canon" content must be cut to the lowest common denominator when you can't cover most choices. You don't - they complain it's too linear to be called a true RPG. And the devs just try to stick with what they planned to do, the best they can.

Modifié par tmk, 13 août 2010 - 06:14 .

[Marcin K]

hey all
oo i just found out i have to be out all tomorrow and sunday so, after today we'll see either very late weekend evenings or monday

Modifié par Marcin R, 13 août 2010 - 08:54 .

[Crimmsonwind]

tmk wrote...
And then you'd have the same fans complaining that the romantic dialogue is too cheesy and not romantic enough for their tastes, and yet other fans complaining that they must officially break it off with Liara to have a quick shag with Jack, and all sorts of other stuff. You try to give people some semblance of freedom - they complain that the "canon" content must be cut to the lowest common denominator when you can't cover most choices. You don't - they complain it's too linear to be called a true RPG. And the devs just try to stick with what they planned to do, the best they can.

It didn't have to bu cut, though; there just needed to be more pathways in the backend of the game to account for more options. What IF someone wants to have a quick fling with Jack, in some moment of weakness? There should be ways to maybe tell Jack at the end of everything that you still want to be with Liara. Now Liara isn't psychic, she doesn't know that you're riding some chick. It will come up later, sure. But there should be options. They've made RPGs with options before. Dragon Age gave you plenty of dialogue choice, and moral ranges to go with it, and Neverwinter Nights before that, and Baldur's Gate before that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that they can successfully give us that feeling of freedom without having us complain. Besides, there is no canon set of events regarding Shepard. They had to make some kind of default Shepard for the sake of convenience for new players, but they don't consider that Shepard, or it's actions, canon. They consider it convenient.

Modifié par Crimmsonwind, 13 août 2010 - 12:45 .

[TMA LIVE]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

tmk wrote...
And then you'd have the same fans complaining that the romantic dialogue is too cheesy and not romantic enough for their tastes, and yet other fans complaining that they must officially break it off with Liara to have a quick shag with Jack, and all sorts of other stuff. You try to give people some semblance of freedom - they complain that the "canon" content must be cut to the lowest common denominator when you can't cover most choices. You don't - they complain it's too linear to be called a true RPG. And the devs just try to stick with what they planned to do, the best they can.

It didn't have to bu cut, though; there just needed to be more pathways in the backend of the game to account for more options. What IF someone wants to have a quick fling with Jack, in some moment of weakness? There should be ways to maybe tell Jack at the end of everything that you still want to be with Liara. Now Liara isn't psychic, she doesn't know that you're riding some chick. It will come up later, sure. But there should be options. They've made RPGs with options before. Dragon Age gave you plenty of dialogue choice, and moral ranges to go with it, and Neverwinter Nights before that, and Baldur's Gate before that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that they can successfully give us that feeling of freedom without having us complain. Besides, there is no canon set of events regarding Shepard. They had to make some kind of default Shepard for the sake of convenience for new players, but they don't consider that Shepard, or it's actions, canon. They consider it convenient.

I just loved Tali more, and feel like I should be allowed to respectfully end the relationship with Liara. I don't want to have some fling. I want a real relationship with Tali, and I feel the relaionship with Liara is dead till her DLC.

Anyways, the problem is is that you have to fill in the gaps. You died, and came back. She hasn't seen you in 2 years. And all you two do is talk business, and hack terminals. I'm sorry, but that's just pain wrong. Even if they were just friends, they'd be talking way more about what's been going on in the past 2 years.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 13 août 2010 - 01:34 .

[Crimmsonwind]

That was just one example, TMA. In reference to what he had said first. If you want that option, I'm saying that it should be there. They should certainly be able to pull it off.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

For all the talk about wanting to break up with the ME1 LIs, I wanted to beat the ME2 LIs over the head with my Shepards relationship with Liara. Maybe Jack can be excused, and possibly Miranda to a lesser extent, but really it would have been nice to be able to let all three, especially Tali, know that they are barking up the wrong tree and should already know about Liara.



I think Kasumi makes it pretty clear Shepards relationship with Liara isnt exactly the best kept secret in the galaxy.

[TMA LIVE]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

For all the talk about wanting to break up with the ME1 LIs, I wanted to beat the ME2 LIs over the head with my Shepards relationship with Liara. Maybe Jack can be excused, and possibly Miranda to a lesser extent, but really it would have been nice to be able to let all three, especially Tali, know that they are barking up the wrong tree and should already know about Liara.

I think Kasumi makes it pretty clear Shepards relationship with Liara isnt exactly the best kept secret in the galaxy.

I agree. Shepard should have been given the option to say, "I can't. There's someone else."

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

TMA LIVE wrote...

I agree. Shepard should have been given the option to say, "I can't. There's someone else."

Yeah, ME2 was missing a few options on the old "roleplaying and dialogue" front.

For example: Akuze. I shouldnt have to say anything more, Bioware you were lazy with that.

Id like to hope ME3 is going to actually "improve" on the roleplaying and dialogue aspects of ME1 rather than "streamline" them like ME2. I wont hold my breath though. Its probably cheaper that way, and they never uttered crap like "third person narrative" when ME1 was being released.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I agree. Shepard should have been given the option to say, "I can't. There's someone else."

Yeah, ME2 was missing a few options on the old "roleplaying and dialogue" front.

For example: Akuze. I shouldnt have to say anything more, Bioware you were lazy with that.

Id like to hope ME3 is going to actually "improve" on the roleplaying and dialogue aspects of ME1 rather than "streamline" them like ME2. I wont hold my breath though. Its probably cheaper that way, and they never uttered crap like "third person narrative" when ME1 was being released.

Fun fact: All ME1 squadmembers act OOC in ME2, along with Shepard and Anderson.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Lizardviking wrote...

Fun fact: All ME1 squadmembers act OOC in ME2, along with Shepard and Anderson.

The twist in ME3 will be that the whole business with the collectors was a feint by the reapers to waste time and resources, and the reapers influenced the minds of all organics involved to make them meekly accept such a waste of time.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Fun fact: All ME1 squadmembers act OOC in ME2, along with Shepard and Anderson.

The twist in ME3 will be that the whole business with the collectors was a feint by the reapers to waste time and resources, and the reapers influenced the minds of all organics involved to make them meekly accept such a waste of time.

That doesn't sound half as bad as the two "twist" in ME2.

Also I can't bring myself to complete the Reaper IFF mission, it's such a huge insult to decent story telling and my intelligence.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 13 août 2010 - 02:11 .

[Crimmsonwind]

Lizardviking wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Fun fact: All ME1 squadmembers act OOC in ME2, along with Shepard and Anderson.

The twist in ME3 will be that the whole business with the collectors was a feint by the reapers to waste time and resources, and the reapers influenced the minds of all organics involved to make them meekly accept such a waste of time.

That doesn't sound half as bad as the two "twist" in ME2.

Also I can't bring myself to complete the Reaper IFF mission, it's such a huge insult to decent story telling and my intelligence.

Well you don't exactly have a choice.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Fun fact: All ME1 squadmembers act OOC in ME2, along with Shepard and Anderson.

The twist in ME3 will be that the whole business with the collectors was a feint by the reapers to waste time and resources, and the reapers influenced the minds of all organics involved to make them meekly accept such a waste of time.

That doesn't sound half as bad as the two "twist" in ME2.

Also I can't bring myself to complete the Reaper IFF mission, it's such a huge insult to decent story telling and my intelligence.

Well you don't exactly have a choice.

Yeah, which makes it worse that I have to go through it two times! <_<

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Lizardviking wrote...

That doesn't sound half as bad as the two "twist" in ME2.

Also I can't bring myself to complete the Reaper IFF mission, it's such a huge insult to decent story telling and my intellegence.

Yeah well before we have to bring this discussion to a close because its better suited to the disappointment thread, I will say I nearly threw my television out of the window when Shepard delivered his stupid "We r teh sahvin teh galaksee!" speech.

Somebody really needs to sit Shepard down and tell him that the galaxy is not at stake because of the collectors, neither is the human race. The only way they could have an impact (because they are a small force, not an army or fleet) is when the reapers arrive. Unlike a squadmate says on the collector ship, the collectors cant target earth, not until the reapers arrive, otherwise the alliance fleet would obliterate that one collector ship they posses.

The threat in ME2 is a waste of time. Its the only sane, non-annoying thing Harbinger says ("This changes nothing").

Still, back to Liara, Id like to see some dialogue from her at some stage acknowledging that, unless we are in for some serious reaper affecting revelations in this DLC about the SB, her vendetta is pointless.

Yeah, the SB made a deal with the collectors, so what? People have been doing that for ages. It doesnt mean much if Liara brings down the SB (a so called "necessary evil" of galactic politics) only to have the galaxy destroyed by the reapers.

But of course, ME2 carried on the tradition of ME1 by inhabiting the galaxy with idiots in denial (particularly in government), who at best acknowledge the threat but dont lift a finger to help.

I dont envy the person who will be writing Shepards ME3 reactions when the reapers are finally a "proven" threat to the galaxy. Making an adequate response to so much stupidity wont be easy if its going to do it justice.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

That doesn't sound half as bad as the two "twist" in ME2.

Also I can't bring myself to complete the Reaper IFF mission, it's such a huge insult to decent story telling and my intellegence.

Yeah well before we have to bring this discussion to a close because its better suited to the disappointment thread, I will say I nearly threw my television out of the window when Shepard delivered his stupid "We r teh sahvin teh galaksee!" speech.

Somebody really needs to sit Shepard down and tell him that the galaxy is not at stake because of the collectors, neither is the human race. The only way they could have an impact (because they are a small force, not an army or fleet) is when the reapers arrive. Unlike a squadmate says on the collector ship, the collectors cant target earth, not until the reapers arrive, otherwise the alliance fleet would obliterate that one collector ship they posses.

The threat in ME2 is a waste of time. Its the only sane, non-annoying thing Harbinger says ("This changes nothing").

Still, back to Liara, Id like to see some dialogue from her at some stage acknowledging that, unless we are in for some serious reaper affecting revelations in this DLC about the SB, her vendetta is pointless.

Yeah, the SB made a deal with the collectors, so what? People have been doing that for ages. It doesnt mean much if Liara brings down the SB (a so called "necessary evil" of galactic politics) only to have the galaxy destroyed by the reapers.

But of course, ME2 carried on the tradition of ME1 by inhabiting the galaxy with idiots in denial (particularly in government), who at best acknowledge the threat but dont lift a finger to help.

I dont envy the person who will be writing Shepards ME3 reactions when the reapers are finally a "proven" threat to the galaxy. Making an adequate response to so much stupidity wont be easy if its going to do it justice.

The council denying the Reaper threat in ME2 was competely retarded, mostly because it spat the ME1 ending in the face. And the alliance complete indiffrence to the Collectors are also pretty hard to buy. If only because that it's an undesirable situation from an economic viewpoint to be in. But then again, Mac proberly couldn't find a better way to make working for Cerberus believable.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Lizardviking wrote...

The council denying the Reaper threat in ME2 was competely retarded, mostly because it spat the ME1 ending in the face. And the alliance complete indiffrence to the Collectors are also pretty hard to buy. If only because that it's an undesirable situation from an economic viewpoint to be in. But then again, Mac proberly couldn't find a better way to make working for Cerberus believable.

Yup, its basically Mass Effect 2: Because.

Why do I have to work with Cerberus as they are conveniently the only ones wanting to do something, while all the other factions also conventiently cant be bothered to? Because.

Why cant my Shepards original love interest join again? Because.

What is the point of ME2s plot? Because.

[Crimmsonwind]

That's what happens when developers and their new overlords try to make what is supposed to be a sequel "accessible" to newcomers. All our "major" choices are sidelines or reduced to minor things.



Hopefully when ME3 rolls around, our choices will actually have a much bigger part. And our ME1 LIs aren't swept further under the rug.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

That's what happens when developers and their new overlords try to make what is supposed to be a sequel "accessible" to newcomers. All our "major" choices are sidelines or reduced to minor things.

Hopefully when ME3 rolls around, our choices will actually have a much bigger part. And our ME1 LIs aren't swept further under the rug.

Maybe Mac should just get off the stage and go back to make characters. Which he knows how to do.