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[Nightwriter]

I always kind of felt that way as well glenboy. Plus, Liara can't die, and out of all the LIs, we get no romance email from her implying a "break", so to speak.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

glenboy24 wrote...

Salutations Liara-Lovers. Was playing through ME1 recently and I suddenly came to an interesting conclusion that has likely been discussed at Length here in the Liara Thread, none the less I felt it was worth brining up again if only for the sake of clarification. Now, I won't hide the fact that my first choice for Shep's Life Time Love Interest is Tali Zorah. Not looking to get stoned here, it's just a personal choice. However, looking over ME1, and the Impact Liara has on that game's Story and Characters (Her mother, etc) and looking at ME2 and the gravity of her presence, though brief, there, and lastly the Comic Series dedicated to her exploits post Shepard's "Death"; taking these observations into account, would it be safe to assume the Liara was intended, by the Writers, to be Shepard's "Canon" Love Interest?

I know, I know. In an RPG "Canon" is a loose term, however I just can't bring myself to see it as otherwise even though I usually choose Tali in the end. When ME1 first launched, the Michael Bay like Trailer hinted that Ashley Williams was Shepard's Canon LI; however, once you sat down and played the game, and saw just how little Ashley effected Shepard and how little impact she had in the Story, short of what happens on Virmire, it really highlights the fact that the Ashley and Shep love scene in the Trailer was more for marketing purposes then anything else.

Also, an important observation I forgot to make, we have the impending Shadow Broker DLC that brings Liara back into the fold so to speak. So, taking these all into account, would this community agree that Liara *was* in fact intended to be the Canon Love Interest? Now, given how much some of you REALLY love Liara I know it will be easy for you to just jump out and say, "Of course she was!" But, I want you crazy kids to think on it, and really look at it from all sides before you answer.

I know this was something I could have turned into a Thread, but, aside from the fact that I hate it when a Thread is created and forgotten ten seconds later, I just figured it made sense to ask this question in a place where pretty much any Liara question would be welcome as long as it wasn't Spam. So, thanks for taking the time to read this and, maybe, post a response. Here's to Love in general in Mass Effect.
 

While I don't think Bioware would ever create a "canon" LI, it is fair to say that Liara seems to be headed as the most important plot-wise squadmate and perhaps second most important character in the series. Plus that she's available to both type of Shepards and people can get the impression that she's the "chosen one".

"EDIT" And Liara can't die (well technically so can't the Virmire survivor either).

Modifié par Lizardviking, 16 août 2010 - 06:23 .

[Slakky]

I think Liara was certainly intended to be the de facto romance for ME1.

It's kind of hard to read their intentions as far as what happened to the ME1 romances with ME2.  Most of it was probably in the name of having characters that were thematically consistent with the new title, and giving the writers a way to carry the relationships over 3 games without having to actually develop them.

Bisexuality also makes EA really uncomfortable.  They have to do something with her going forward, but I'd be shocked if they did a 180 and she reprised her role as the "canon" love interest.  She probably won't even be an option if you didn't play ME1.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

I dont think EA has a problem with bisexuality, since there was still plenty of it in ME2.

We know Bioware has a problem with male same sex relationships, and I wouldnt be surprised if EA does as well, but Id be extremely shocked if Liaras character got constrained in ME3 because of her availability to either gender Shepard.

And honestly, Im hoping to see a single Liara romance in ME3 that gets slightly altered at various dialogue points depending on what happened. Did you not import, or did you simply not romance Liara, yet but decide to in ME3? Did you have a fling with someone in ME2, or have you stayed faithful to the idea of beginning again with Liara?

Not only does that offer content for every player, it also makes for some pretty interesting roleplaying. The prospect of not romancing Liara in ME1 but doing so in ME3 vs staying faithful to her all the way through would be some welcome variance the ME romances have been sorely lacking in. Every single one seems to follow the same pattern of "I like you, you like me, but we cant get involved just yet due to impending doom/regulations/interspecies complications/my messed up psyche" etc. In ME2 it takes up barely two dialogues to get through it its so weak.

Im kinda hanging on Bioware breaking that mould for ME3, instead of just another romance culminating in a love scene "in case the reapers kill us all".

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 16 août 2010 - 09:23 .

[Marcin K]

hey all after 2 days absence

[bjdbwea]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

I wouldnt be surprised if EA does as well, but Id be extremely shocked if Liaras character got constrained in ME3 because of her availability to either gender Shepard.

I do somehow believe that BioWare/EA have some kind of problem with that. Perhaps even with romances in general. DA doesn't count, because that was mostly developed while BioWare were still independent. But then there were no romances in Awakening.

As far as Liara is concerned, her romance isn't acknowledged by anyone in ME 2, we only see Shepard hoping in the end that it still exists. Whereas the romances of Ashley and Kaidan are acknowledged by several people.

Of course there's going to be the Liara DLC now. We'll see. If it makes no mention of her romance, I think this will pretty much prove that I'm right. Because let's face it, there'd be no sensible explanation and it would be laughably unrealistic if Shepard and Liara would never ever talk about their relationship during or after that mission.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 16 août 2010 - 10:30 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

bjdbwea wrote...

I do somehow believe that BioWare/EA have some kind of problem with that. Perhaps even with romances in general. DA doesn't count, because that was mostly developed while BioWare were still independent. But then there were no romances in Awakening.

As far as Liara is concerned, her romance isn't acknowledged by anyone in ME 2, we only see Shepard hoping in the end that it still exists. Whereas the romances of Ashley and Kaidan are acknowledged by several people.

Of course there's going to be the Liara DLC now. We'll see. If it makes no mention of her romance, I think this will pretty much prove that I'm right. Because let's face it, there'd be no sensible explanation and it would be laughably unrealistic if Shepard and Liara would never ever talk about their relationship during or after that mission.

Sorry, but Kelly and Samara are glaring beacons of bisexual content for lesbians (granted Samara doesnt go anywhere, but still).

Its the complete lack of same sex male content thats really the most irritating part of it all. Especially when there are these suggestions that male same sex content is always developed in game, just never implemented.

Well see what happens with the Liara DLC, and more importantly ME3, and if there is no F/F content then. At that point I would start to agree that Bioware/EA has some kind of problem with F/F content, but considering its still in game (just not a full romance), I think its a tad selfish to start claiming there is a problem, when male gay relationships dont even get *mentioned* in game BY NPCS, let alone allow NPCs to be romanced in such a way.

[bjdbwea]

I don't think Kelly and Samara prove me wrong. As you said, both aren't "real" romances. I for one think at least Kelly might have been planned to be a LI, but it isn't in the game. Jack would have been an obvious choice too.

I'm not one of those who say that BioWare is obliged to provide that kind of content, but I see that once they did, and now they don't. And it happens to be one explanation for the awful way of (not) dealing with the Liara romance in ME 2.

The Liara DLC will convince me of one guess or the other.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 16 août 2010 - 11:07 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Well no offence to ME2 LI fans, but I think the ME2 romances are extremely poorly developed. Every one that I have seen consists of roughly two medium length conversations and one "if youre still interested" half-dialogue.



Maybe they just decided not to do a full on F/F romance option this time as they already have 6 romances to worry about. If Liara or some other female character in ME3 is made a full squadmate romance available to femsheps, the entire point is rendered moot really.



Regardless, I think Liaras lack of romance content in ME2 is a reflection entirely on the characters treatment, and cant be turned around to suggest any kind of treatment toward F/F content. Maleshep romancers get exactly the same content as femshep romancers. Especially when, as I pointed out, they still do f/f romance content in ME2.

[bjdbwea]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Well no offence to ME2 LI fans, but I think the ME2 romances are extremely poorly developed.

I agree, and I'm kind of glad they did not treat the ME 1 LIs "equally" in that regard. Good romance -> no romance is almost better than good romance -> bad romance. I just hope they get their act  together and write romances properly in ME 3, for the inevitable new companions as well as for the - hopefully - returning ME 1 LIs. And hopefully they'll start with the DLC.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 16 août 2010 - 11:34 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Shavon wrote...

Well, they definitely aren't as well written as the ME1 romances . . . . but you know, even in ME1, we see the beginnings of Bw's new direction, with the cutting of s/s materials, and less detail in conversations, lore, etc.

I always wondered why DA:O had M/M romance but ME1 didn't. Perhaps it's because they wanted ME to be the more "mainstream" franchise?

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Lizardviking wrote...

I always wondered why DA:O had M/M romance but ME1 didn't. Perhaps it's because they wanted ME to be the more "mainstream" franchise?

Bingo. Really, I wouldnt be surprised (given its new dumbed down overhaul) to hear soon that there will be no M/M relations in DA2.

Theyll probably use the same pathetic cop out like they did with ME2, and that its a "third person narrative", and they are going for a "PG-13 action feel" (funny that, given ME2s numerous sexual themes, violence, drug use and profanity).

Edit: Its probably worth giving this a rest now though. I know its linked to Liara via being the only full squadmate romance that offers a F/F choice, but its getting more towards something that belongs in a same sex romance thread.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 16 août 2010 - 02:09 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

I always wondered why DA:O had M/M romance but ME1 didn't. Perhaps it's because they wanted ME to be the more "mainstream" franchise?

Bingo. Really, I wouldnt be surprised (given its new dumbed down overhaul) to hear soon that there will be no M/M relations in DA2.

Theyll probably use the same pathetic cop out like they did with ME2, and that its a "third person narrative", and they are going for a "PG-13 action feel" (funny that, given ME2s numerous sexual themes, violence, drug use and profanity).

Edit: Its probably worth giving this a rest now though. I know its linked to Liara via being the only full squadmate romance that offers a F/F choice, but its getting more towards something that belongs in a same sex romance thread.

I have never seen anything wrong with making something more "mainstream"  as long as all the core values aren't removed. Perhaps it's because i'm part of that "mainstream" demographics ME sought to haul in.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Lizardviking wrote...


I have never seen anything wrong with making something more "mainstream"  as long as all the core values aren't removed. Perhaps it's because i'm part of that "mainstream" demographics ME sought to haul in.

To clarify just to finish this up, I believe there is a marked difference between trying to supplement your usual fanbase by adding in certain features (Mass Effect 1 was a typical Bioware RPG, and to try and bring in new fans, they added an *element* of third person shooter to it), and all out dumbed down pandering to the mainstream (ME2).

As someone looking for an RPG experience without having a third person shooter shoved down my throat, ME1 succeeded and ME2 failed miserably. After this, you simply compare the marketing stratagy for the game and comments afterwards i.e. "shooter fans who liked Modern Warfare and Gears of War will love this game!" or "We focused on building a solid shooter game above everything else, the RPG stuff came afterwards", and you can see the "core values" getting affected.

One of things I missed most from ME1 were prolonged periods of time without having to get into combat.

The two main instances of visiting the citadel in ME1 offered probably around 1+ hours worth of main and side story content where I barely had to engage in combat at all.

In ME2 it seems to come in around 15 minute intervals at max, and then youre put right back into the shooting galleries.

Anyway, I hope that clarifies. Its one of the reason I have posted in the "disappointment" thread before.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

To get back on topic now, Im wondering if people called it right, and that perhaps tomorrow is likely to reveal some new information, perhaps to do with gamescom?



If we do get new information this week, Im really hoping it includes some more screenshots that give a better idea on some of the aspects of this DLC. Perhpas things like different environments, or more dialogue type shots. Things that suggest it might be a more dialogue heavy DLC that doesnt just take place at one base.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

To get back on topic now, Im wondering if people called it right, and that perhaps tomorrow is likely to reveal some new information, perhaps to do with gamescom?

If we do get new information this week, Im really hoping it includes some more screenshots that give a better idea on some of the aspects of this DLC. Perhpas things like different environments, or more dialogue type shots. Things that suggest it might be a more dialogue heavy DLC that doesnt just take place at one base.

I wouldn't mind it taking place in one base. Well, as long as the base is huge!

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Lizardviking wrote...
I wouldn't mind it taking place in one base. Well, as long as the base is huge!

Maybe, but it would have to perhaps be preceded by something approaching a "hunt". I dont want it to simply be "I have the location of the Shadow Brokers base, lets go blow it the hell up!"

Its just the kind of "quick DLC mission" I dont want something like the Shadow Broker being solved in. Im hoping its layout and presentation are substantial, and makes the resolution (provided the SB does get finished off in this DLC like the blurbs so far imply) as important as it should be.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
I wouldn't mind it taking place in one base. Well, as long as the base is huge!

Maybe, but it would have to perhaps be preceded by something approaching a "hunt". I dont want it to simply be "I have the location of the Shadow Brokers base, lets go blow it the hell up!"

Its just the kind of "quick DLC mission" I dont want something like the Shadow Broker being solved in. Im hoping its layout and presentation are substantial, and makes the resolution (provided the SB does get finished off in this DLC like the blurbs so far imply) as important as it should be.

It would be nice if the base is large. Resulting in you being able to take diffrent paths in order to reach your goal, giving the DLC replay value.

[Elyvern]

Hi Liara Thread, LotSB - I'm waiting to see how many voice actors they employ. Surely they can't hope to do this without voicing Liara. That would be unimaginable.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Elyvern wrote...

Hi Liara Thread, LotSB - I'm waiting to see how many voice actors they employ. Surely they can't hope to do this without voicing Liara. That would be unimaginable.

So far in the DLC thats been released there have been (aside from Shepard) 2 major roles (Kasumi/Hock  Dr. Archer/David) in each DLC. Hopefully there will be more major characters included this time!

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Lizardviking wrote...

It would be nice if the base is large. Resulting in you being able to take diffrent paths in order to reach your goal, giving the DLC replay value.

And give Bioware some practice for developing missions that arent disconnected, immersion ruining shooting galleries split up by loading screens and a mission complete screen maybe? Hey, I can hope.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

It would be nice if the base is large. Resulting in you being able to take diffrent paths in order to reach your goal, giving the DLC replay value.

And give Bioware some practice for developing missions that arent disconnected, immersion ruining shooting galleries split up by loading screens and a mission complete screen maybe? Hey, I can hope.

ME1 amount of alternative paths/areas to explore wasn't that huge. Granted it did have them, but it wasn't really anything really big (aside from Feros).

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Lizardviking wrote...

ME1 amount of alternative paths/areas to explore wasn't that huge. Granted it did have them, but it wasn't really anything really big (aside from Feros).

No, I wasnt suggesting otherwise, but alternate paths are nowhere near as important as offering alternate gameplay methods throughout the course of a mission. ME1 had its fair share of missions where they were like ME2, mainly filled with shooting with some roleplaying sparsely sprinkled througout. But of course it also had plenty of areas was there was more to accomplishing things than just cover based shooting. Something that should come back for ME3 IMO.

A little non-linearity wouldnt hurt the layout sure, but I think they should concentrate on getting over the linear gameplay mechanic first. Despite idiotic claims otherwise, I wouldnt call moving from one waist-high-wall filled corrider to the next "innovative".

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

ME1 amount of alternative paths/areas to explore wasn't that huge. Granted it did have them, but it wasn't really anything really big (aside from Feros).

No, I wasnt suggesting otherwise, but alternate paths are nowhere near as important as offering alternate gameplay methods throughout the course of a mission. ME1 had its fair share of missions where they were like ME2, mainly filled with shooting with some roleplaying sparsely sprinkled througout. But of course it also had plenty of areas was there was more to accomplishing things than just cover based shooting. Something that should come back for ME3 IMO.

A little non-linearity wouldnt hurt the layout sure, but I think they should concentrate on getting over the linear gameplay mechanic first. Despite idiotic claims otherwise, I wouldnt call moving from one waist-high-wall filled corrider to the next "innovative".

I wouldn't mind being able to use diplomacy or indtimidation in order to make some SB henchmen back down, thereby passing a fight.