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Support Liara T'Soni for ME3 - Squadmate and LI


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#47026
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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IndigoWolfe wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

I wonder if the DLC will reference to the Illium cameo? It should atleast IMO.

And most people in here proberly wouldn't be able to bear it. But I wouldn't mind having one or more conversation between Shepard and Liara go all Horizon. With Shepard getting angry at Liara for giving him the cold shoulder (if you didn't discover the reason why) and make him feel she's abandond him, to Liara getting angry at Shepard for being a brick.

Could be dramatic.


I think an arguement would give the Liara romance an entire new level of depth. But the writing would have to be given the lightest, most feather-esque of touches. There would be very little to no room for error.

As I've said in the past; a relationship is proven just as much during the hard times as the good. Perhaps even more.


It would have to be done correctly. Or it will just end up making Liara look like some hypocrit (giving the haters smug justifications) or make Shepard look more brick than ever (breaking my face for making an epic facepalm).

But it could completely heartbreaking if one of the conclusions to the DLC would result in one of them storming off in anger and sorrow, knowing that theres nothing left between them.

#47027
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Sigilius wrote...

It has been implied that the idea that the genetic code of the second parent is indeed utilized. Comments by some asari (ie the bartender, the asari talking about her friend having a "batarian father", etc.) lead me to believe that the community is divided on whether or not the second parent actually contributes, despite prevailing 'scientific evidence'.

Personally, I think that because the asari can be attracted to one individual over another, it must hold true that different beings possess different traits, desirable or otherwise. I think that they do not simply 'randomize' the mother's existing DNA, because then nothing would be gained, which is the ultimate error in asari views. They'd just have variations of the same DNA, and ultimately their genetic pool would stagnate. It stands to reason that the asari select desirable traits from other species, traits that aren't specifically native to a species (ie toughness, intelligence, stamina, etc.) They don't receive the 'father's' eyes, but they can receive inherent personality traits, things that the asari are always looking to grow from.

A randomizer would be completely useless. The asari would not be equipped to mate with other species if this held true. There would be no reason to look beyond other asari, since they would contribute nothing, and a pureblood child would be identical to a child of a human or a turian. This is impossible, since Ardat-Yakshi occur solely in pureblood relationships (something I assume runs along the lines of inbreeding). How would the child be determined as an Ardat-Yakshi, if indeed the second parent had nothing to contribtue? There would be no difference between a human parent and an asari parent, and therefore Ardat-Yakshi should be a possible result of all unions, not just asari-asari. But since they are not, it stands to reason that pureblood children run the risk of inbreeding's effects, i.e. Ardat-Yakshiism (is that even a word?). Other species offer something different, and this difference is obviously received.

There's also the belief that asari inherit some physical traits. Maybe not something the father species displays themselves, but when translated by the asari's nervous system, becomes something entirely new. Like a recessive trait. (Examples include some asari's scaly head fringes (salarian or turian father?), facial markings/colors, etc.) Even the bartender, who's face I always thought was rather more hard and plain than other asari, rather lacking the beauty (don't get me wrong, I love the bartender), says she had a krogan father. Perhaps children of krogan rely less on beauty, since their parents obviously do not. (I know she's also very old, a matriarch, etc., but all other examples of asari not born of krogan display similar levels of 'prettiness'.) Liara herself said that asari seek out other species to aquire new traits and 'grow as a society'.

Evolution: it's elementary, my dear Watson.


A "mother" who carries the Ardat-Yakshi gene has a chance of passing it on during conception.   The chance is much greater in a Pureblood pairing.  The chance is not eliminated in non-Pureblood pairings.

The physical features you list as evidence come from an extremely limited, and hardly adequate, sample size.

If you look for other reasons for why asari might be attracted to non-asari, some people, myself included, think that they're attracted to a person's mind first, and his/her body second, since an asari's relationship with her partner is much more mental, due to the pairing.

Their gene-pool does stagnate, but the randomization process is apparently adequate enough to prevent them from dying out due to inbreeding.   You could call that an evolutionary adaptation within itself.   It's not foolproof, producing the Ardat-Yakshi.  If 1% of asari exist on the AY spectrum, the randomization process has served them well enough.

Modifié par yorkj86, 26 août 2010 - 04:55 .


#47028
Sigilius

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I would love a nice, dramatic argument, emotional and powerful in nature. Just not another Virmire Survivor, Horizon deal, where the argument is strictly linear, because the other debator is already decided on what to say. No matter what point you made, they always arrived at the same bloody conclusion. I eventually stopped saying the Paragon "Too much time had passed. I didn't want to reopen old wounds," because I was tired of the whole, "But now you're with Cerberus" answer, which strictly speaking wasn't even a correct response to the statement. So I used the neutral "I was dead for two years. On an operating table. That's why I couldn't call," but they jumped to the same conclusion. No reaction that you were effing dead.



But if Liara's dialogue and Shepard's were both wounded and emotional, with potential to resolve the argument in different ways, I would be most pleased.

#47029
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pf17456 wrote...

I'm inclined to think the Baria Frontier Asari's comments are colored with a defensive bias. Seems to me it would be pointless to mate with other species if there is nothing really to be gained, I mean why make such a big deal about Asari being capable of cross species mating if there is no real point to it. The concept of an Asari being able to select 'the best a partner has to offer' makes more sense to me and seems to fit more with what is presented in the game about the Asari. The ability to add desirable qualities to the Asari genepool taken from other species casts an adaptive and almost formidable light on Asari consistant with most of the other species inherent attempts to vie for domination a/o survival. Whereas Krogan, Human, Turian utilize aggression as a means of survival Asari use seduction. In this manner the Asari will eventually encompass the best of what all life in the galaxy has to offer leaving the Asari in a position of being capable of galactic leadershp since at some point there will be an Asari with the genitic traits of all galactic life. Perhaps this is a yet unmentioned Asari goal but it seems to fit , at least in my opinion.


I don't agree with you.  Genes aren't the only things that can be passed on from generation to generation.  You don't have to mate with someone to understand them.  I  think that their desire to mate with other species is the very same thing as their desire to understand other species.  Culture isn't genetic, but culture can be passed on through parenting.   If the asari can culturally contain elements from every species, that is most significant to them.

#47030
jlb524

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yorkj86 wrote...

If you look for other reasons for why asari might be attracted to non-asari, some people, myself included, think that they're attracted to a person's mind first, and his/her body second, since an asari's relationship with her partner is much more mental, due to the pairing.


I most definitely agree with this.  We may not understand this (as the physical influences much of our attraction for others) but I believe that it's just not that important to an asari.  It's mostly mental.   I think this is part of the reason Liara becomse so quickly attracted to Shepard shortly after sharing a knowledge meld with the Commander.

#47031
jlb524

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I do hope for some happy times as well...



Posted Image



I kind of miss this :)

#47032
Sigilius

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In response to yorkj86:
Yes, if you accept the randomization process as true, then a single asari mother would be able to randomize "herself" countless times through her daughters. Each would have the same DNA, just what traits were selected and displayed from the options would be altered. However, this would also lead to the potential of exact clones. The species would 'exist', but stagnation would take hold over millennia, and eventually the Ardat-Yakshi syndrome would completely overtake the race. Indeed, due to the long existence of the asari race (I believe it's something along the lines of 250,000 years?) this genetic corruption would have become much more prevalent by now, than by its current standard. The only way the asari survived as long as they did was by accepting each other's DNA, as humans do. If not, their individuality would be based soley on their aquired personalities, and asari bloodlines would never intersect, since they only ever receive the DNA of their mother. Eventually, these bloodlines would become quite genetically different through mutation. Their identity as a single species would ultimately be compromised.

There is also evidence brought forward by the greatest experts in special genetics: the Reapers. While they are our sworn enemies, homicidal holocaust machines, what have you, the Reapers possess an innate understanding of genetics in other species, since of course it is facilitated through their reproductive process. There is of course Harbinger's diagnosis of the asari condition, when confronted by an asari squadmate. "Asari: reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness." Harbinger acknowledges a necessity for asari to meld with other species to grow and evolve, obviously the result of close study as the asari were considered and subsequently rejected a Reaper-material race.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: Do asari inherit nothing new, and each daughter is merely a randomized clone of the mother, leading to stagnation and special disintegration, or do they inherit traits from their parent? If it can be accepted that traits are inherited from both asari parents, then it holds true for all other parents in the melding process. Like york pointed out, it is a mental connection, but I must add that it comes with its roots in genetic diversification. Ardat-Yakshiism is, again, as I recall, solely occurent in asari-asari relationships. We see a significant fall in the relative population of Ardat-Yakshi when the galaxy 'opens up' to asari, as opposed to when only pureblood relations were possible. I have heard of no such example of an Ardat-Yakshi resulting from an asari-alien relationship.

Also, in response to the criticism of the physical traits analysis I provided: I merely stated it as an alternate viewpoint adopted by others. It merely helped to corroborate my own ideas, on the genetic translation and nonphysical trait inheritance, which I accept as true. I don't support the physical inheritance. Only emotional, psycological, and personality trait inheritance. Asari require other's DNA to flourish, like all sexual forms of life. They have been expressly defined as not asexual. Therefore, they need a partner's DNA. A partner being a sentient being, since all sentient species seem to possess some form of common ancestry in evolution, with the possible exception of the hanar. All galactic species have evolved nervous systems, most are bipedal, similar facial features, etc (again, minus hanar). And while they require DNA, and are evolved to accept it from all compatible races, they never stop being asari. It is a mechanism that keeps them intact as a species. While they are remarkable in how they utilize other species' DNA to grow and evolve, they never surrender their genetic identity. They're not after physical traits, merely mental, because mental qualities are qualities the asari prize above all.

I agree wholeheartedly that the asari love the mind first. They see other races as inherently similar, and love them for their sentience.

Modifié par Sigilius, 26 août 2010 - 05:17 .


#47033
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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Sigilius wrote...

I would love a nice, dramatic argument, emotional and powerful in nature. Just not another Virmire Survivor, Horizon deal, where the argument is strictly linear, because the other debator is already decided on what to say. No matter what point you made, they always arrived at the same bloody conclusion. I eventually stopped saying the Paragon "Too much time had passed. I didn't want to reopen old wounds," because I was tired of the whole, "But now you're with Cerberus" answer, which strictly speaking wasn't even a correct response to the statement. So I used the neutral "I was dead for two years. On an operating table. That's why I couldn't call," but they jumped to the same conclusion. No reaction that you were effing dead.

But if Liara's dialogue and Shepard's were both wounded and emotional, with potential to resolve the argument in different ways, I would be most pleased.


It would suck if Liara would get angry no matter what. The dialog should have diffrent conclusions depending on what Shepard says.

#47034
Sigilius

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EDIT: Double-post. So sorry. Just thought I'd edit and throw in how much I love Liara.Posted Image

Recycle posts to save the planet!Posted Image

@Lizardviking: I agree wholeheartedly.

Modifié par Sigilius, 26 août 2010 - 05:13 .


#47035
pf17456

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yorkj86 wrote...

I don't agree with you.  Genes aren't the only things that can be passed on from generation to generation.  You don't have to mate with someone to understand them.  I  think that their desire to mate with other species is the very same thing as their desire to understand other species.  Culture isn't genetic, but culture can be passed on through parenting.   If the asari can culturally contain elements from every species, that is most significant to them.


While I can agree with the 'nurture' part of your opinion I think it leaves the whole concept of 'melding' and genetics as facets of Asari reproduction irrelevant.

#47036
jlb524

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pf17456 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

I don't agree with you.  Genes aren't the only things that can be passed on from generation to generation.  You don't have to mate with someone to understand them.  I  think that their desire to mate with other species is the very same thing as their desire to understand other species.  Culture isn't genetic, but culture can be passed on through parenting.   If the asari can culturally contain elements from every species, that is most significant to them.


While I can agree with the 'nurture' part of your opinion I think it leaves the whole concept of 'melding' and genetics as facets of Asari reproduction irrelevant.


Genetics may be irrelevant, but not the melding.  It appears like another nervous system is needed to trigger the process of reproduction.

#47037
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not heavily implied, via a conversation between the two bigoted asari insulting Erinya, that the stigma attached to purebloods and the discrimination that they have to endure is due to the fact that asari born of an asari/non-asari relationship often lose their father relatively early in their lives? If I remember correctly, if the player continues to listen to the conversation between the two bigoted asari, it is eventually revealed that the one that most vociferously insults and derides purebloods was the daughter of a salarian, whom would have obviously passed away early in her life. I can't remember the exact phrasing or the quote, but the asari seems incredibly hurt and defensive when this is brought up, and tells the asari she is talking with to "shut up". Is it not possible that a significant contribution to the stigma attached to purebloods is because daughters of asari/non-asari pairings are envious of the fact that purebloods are able to enjoy a significant amount of time with both parents?

#47038
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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jlb524 wrote...

I do hope for some happy times as well...


I kind of miss this :)


Really?

I much rather have this!

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#47039
jlb524

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LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not heavily implied, via a conversation between the two bigoted asari insulting Erinya, that the stigma attached to purebloods and the discrimination that they have to endure is due to the fact that asari born of an asari/non-asari relationship often lose their father relatively early in their lives? If I remember correctly, if the player continues to listen to the conversation between the two bigoted asari, it is eventually revealed that the one that most vociferously insults and derides purebloods was the daughter of a salarian, whom would have obviously passed away early in her life. I can't remember the exact phrasing or the quote, but the asari seems incredibly hurt and defensive when this is brought up, and tells the asari she is talking with to "shut up". Is it not possible that a significant contribution to the stigma attached to purebloods is because daughters of asari/non-asari pairings are envious of the fact that purebloods are able to enjoy a significant amount of time with both parents?


Hmmm....that's a good point.  That may definitely be part of the reason non-purebloods harbor some resentment towards purebloods.

I think you are correct with what you remember.

#47040
pf17456

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jlb524 wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

I don't agree with you.  Genes aren't the only things that can be passed on from generation to generation.  You don't have to mate with someone to understand them.  I  think that their desire to mate with other species is the very same thing as their desire to understand other species.  Culture isn't genetic, but culture can be passed on through parenting.   If the asari can culturally contain elements from every species, that is most significant to them.


While I can agree with the 'nurture' part of your opinion I think it leaves the whole concept of 'melding' and genetics as facets of Asari reproduction irrelevant.


Genetics may be irrelevant, but not the melding.  It appears like another nervous system is needed to trigger the process of reproduction.


You mean like some sort of external stimulus ?

#47041
jlb524

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pf17456 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

I don't agree with you.  Genes aren't the only things that can be passed on from generation to generation.  You don't have to mate with someone to understand them.  I  think that their desire to mate with other species is the very same thing as their desire to understand other species.  Culture isn't genetic, but culture can be passed on through parenting.   If the asari can culturally contain elements from every species, that is most significant to them.


While I can agree with the 'nurture' part of your opinion I think it leaves the whole concept of 'melding' and genetics as facets of Asari reproduction irrelevant.


Genetics may be irrelevant, but not the melding.  It appears like another nervous system is needed to trigger the process of reproduction.


You mean like some sort of external stimulus ?


Yes...they can't do it on their own, but for some reason, linking with another being's nervous system enables them to randomize one set of their own dna and combine it with the un-randomized version, creating the child.  I doubt this is something they can control consciously, though.

#47042
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Sigilius, AY are sterile.  They aren't producing more of themselves.  As sad as it is to say, AY, and asari who carry the AY gene, are genetic dead-ends.  The AY gene, and condition, are self-correcting.

As for the Reapers saying that the asari are genetically weak for having to rely upon other species, that is either true, and vague, or false, and retconned, due to our understanding of what's said about asari gene randomization, in ME2.

#47043
Sigilius

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@yorkj86: I am well aware Ardat-Yakshi are sterile. I am merely saying that the recessive trait, the "carrier" asari, such as Samara, of the condition will multiply in number and prevalence. The point I was striving to make was that eventually the majority of children born would be Ardat-Yakshi. I never insinuated that they too would breed. And because they are sterile, it would only provide further evidence that the condition would weaken the race, and ultimately cause it to die out. If what you say is true, and asari merely randomize themselves, then eventually nearly all parings will result in Ardat-Yakshi. The potential for the condition is present in all asari. The randomization process will eventually produce more carriers, and in turn, cause a lack of fertile non-Ardat-Yakshi in subsequent generations.

As for Harbinger, I can personally verify that this was its exact wording. I believe we can accept the Reapers as reliable sources on genetic diagnoses, since they indeed deal in genetics (When they're not out destroying galactic civilization, of course). I find nothing vague about it. He states that they rely on other species in order to grow. Then of course there is the general consensus that nothing is gained from a pureblood relationship, implying that something is to be gained otherwise. Otherwise, the statement is redundant. Why bother explicitly stating that purebloods gain nothing, of no relation gains anything? The asari are very preoccupied with gaining genetic experience and superior qualities. Not through randomization, but through breeding. Breeding provides infinately more possibilites than randomization. It would be near-impossible for the asari to advance in the way they have claimed to have or desire to merely by being born as variations of their mothers. They believe they can gain something from unions, and that pureblood unions are defunct.

Even if an asari bloodline succeeded, after generations of attempts and against all genetic odds, at achieveing the genetic superiority they covet so dearly, and what you say is true, then they would not be able to pass on this desirable trait to any but their direct bloodline, which can hardly account for the species on the whole.

Modifié par Sigilius, 26 août 2010 - 05:53 .


#47044
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yorkj86 wrote...

As for the Reapers saying that the asari are genetically weak for having to rely upon other species, that is either true, and vague, or false, and retconned, due to our understanding of what's said about asari gene randomization, in ME2.


Yeah...I always found it odd that Harbinger said this, when it's clearly untrue.  They don't have to rely on other species for mating.

#47045
Dinkamus_Littlelog

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I really wouldnt take anything Harbinger says seriously. If Bioware werent intentionally writing harbinger as a gibbering brainless oaf, they are complete morons.



Do you know what else Harbinger says? He talks about the krogan, and their "sterility". Talk to Mordin and he will tell you thats total garbage, the krogan are NOT sterile, they simply have an artifically altered birthrate that prevents them from trying to swarm the galaxy.



Basically, Harbinger in one of the worst "villains" in video game history, and is pretty much full of ****.



Sad that they tried to present him as some kind of "reaper leadership". Harbinger is so crap he makes Sovereign facepalm (Sovereign took lessons in how to be an awesome villain, probably from Jon Irenicus).

#47046
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

I really wouldnt take anything Harbinger says seriously. If Bioware werent intentionally writing harbinger as a gibbering brainless oaf, they are complete morons.

Do you know what else Harbinger says? He talks about the krogan, and their "sterility". Talk to Mordin and he will tell you thats total garbage, the krogan are NOT sterile, they simply have an artifically altered birthrate that prevents them from trying to swarm the galaxy.

Basically, Harbinger in one of the worst "villains" in video game history, and is pretty much full of ****.

Sad that they tried to present him as some kind of "reaper leadership". Harbinger is so crap he makes Sovereign facepalm (Sovereign took lessons in how to be an awesome villain, probably from Jon Irenicus).


But Harbinger's statement about Turians simply takes the cake. Apperently the Turians are too primitiv......

Didn't stop them from reverse-engineering Reaper tech so Shepard could blast that collector ship to kingdome come.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 26 août 2010 - 06:03 .


#47047
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Sigilius wrote...

@yorkj86: I am well aware Ardat-Yakshi are sterile. I am merely saying that the recessive trait, the "carrier" asari, such as Samara, of the condition will multiply in number and prevalence. The point I was striving to make was that eventually the majority of children born would be Ardat-Yakshi. I never insinuated that they too would breed. And because they are sterile, it would only provide further evidence that the condition would weaken the race, and ultimately cause it to die out. If what you say is true, and asari merely randomize themselves, then eventually nearly all parings will result in Ardat-Yakshi. The potential for the condition is present in all asari. The randomization process will eventually produce more carriers, and in turn, cause a lack of fertile non-Ardat-Yakshi in subsequent generations.

As for Harbinger, I can personally verify that this was its exact wording. I believe we can accept the Reapers as reliable sources on genetic diagnoses, since they indeed deal in genetics (When they're not out destroying galactic civilization, of course). I find nothing vague about it. He states that they rely on other species in order to grow. Then of course there is the general consensus that nothing is gained from a pureblood relationship, implying that something is to be gained otherwise. Otherwise, the statement is redundant. Why bother explicitly stating that purebloods gain nothing, of no relation gains anything? The asari are very preoccupied with gaining genetic experience and superior qualities. Not through randomization, but through breeding. Breeding provides infinately more possibilites than randomization. It would be near-impossible for the asari to advance in the way they have claimed to have or desire to merely by being born as variations of their mothers. They believe they can gain something from unions, and that pureblood unions are defunct.

Even if an asari bloodline succeeded, after generations of attempts and against all genetic odds, at achieveing the genetic superiority they covet so dearly, and what you say is true, then they would not be able to pass on this desirable trait to any but their direct bloodline, which can hardly account for the species on the whole.


That sounds like a misunderstanding of genetics, Sigilius.  Assuming that asari and human genetics function similarly, by your logic - If the AY gene is recessive, all humans would eventually express polydactyly (greater than five digits on each hand/foot); If the AY gene is dominant, all humans will eventually have Parkinsons.  In addition to misunderstanding, you exclude small, nuanced factors, like isolated populations of asari.  You would need to know far more than the game tells you to make those kinds of claims.

Modifié par yorkj86, 26 août 2010 - 06:02 .


#47048
Marcin K

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gtg cya all tomorrow

#47049
Yeled

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jlb524 wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

I don't agree with you.  Genes aren't the only things that can be passed on from generation to generation.  You don't have to mate with someone to understand them.  I  think that their desire to mate with other species is the very same thing as their desire to understand other species.  Culture isn't genetic, but culture can be passed on through parenting.   If the asari can culturally contain elements from every species, that is most significant to them.


While I can agree with the 'nurture' part of your opinion I think it leaves the whole concept of 'melding' and genetics as facets of Asari reproduction irrelevant.


Genetics may be irrelevant, but not the melding.  It appears like another nervous system is needed to trigger the process of reproduction.


But again, it renders the specific mate irrelevant.

#47050
Dinkamus_Littlelog

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Lizardviking wrote...


But Harbinger's statement about Turians simply takes the cake. Apperently the Turians are too primitiv......

Didn't stop them from reverse-engineering Reaper tech so Shepard could blast that collector ship to kingdome come.


I have to admit, one of the turians flaws is their "bomb everything first, ask questions later" which is a rather primitive trait, but to dismiss the entire race on the basis that they are too primitive?

The best way to look at it is just more Reaper BS'ing.

Sovereign was a lied and BS'ed to Shepard too (it just did it with more style than harbinger). Harbingers taunts mean less than nothing in the end, as they are just that: baseless taunts by a gibbering wreck that thinks it is eternal.