50907 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Yeled wrote...

But again, it renders the specific mate irrelevant.

I just don't see why this is a problem.

[Sigilius]

Incorrect, yorkj86. I merely state that in asari as you claim, this would occur. If humans merely cloned themselves repeatedly, not altering or adding to but merely scrambling the genetic code, mutations and errors, as well as undesirable traits would eventually propagate throughout the population. I do not misunderstand, but rather claim that this is indeed impossible. You fail to acknowledge my point that, without interaction between individuals in the species (genetically) as you claim, eventually through mutation and isolation, the asari would lose all identity as a single coherent species. If humans had a way of surviving (and I say surviving because what you suggest prohibits a species from thriving) without actually sharing genetic information, merely creating variations of each individual, again and again, then humans would eventually evolve and mutate into completely separate species, far further than the simple differences of race brought about by natural mutation. This is not possible. The asari are not only the longest-lived species, but so is their actual race. They have existed, from what we can tell, longer than any other species. And yet they are still fundamentally similar. If you are correct, then why do they share similar traits after epochs of genetic isolation? Why are individuals not much more disparate in nature?

I pride myself on an understanding of genetics. The Ardat-Yakshi theory is a counterexample I provided, a side-effect of the theory you propose. I am well aware of its genetic impossibility. I do not endorse it. Indeed, your theory results in it. Please take care not to state I am incorrect based off examples I provide that are deliberately erroneous. They are stated because they are incorrect, to disprove the theory I take issue with. You make it seem as though I thought of it in support of my own. No. It's false nature is designed to support my theory by countering your proposed example. You realize they are incorrect, but in so doing, their logic is proven. They are incorrect, and yet in order for your theory to hold true, they have to be correct. Feel free to debate me on this issue, but do not assign these sorts of assertions I make to be my own theories. They are counter-hypotheses, nothing more.

Modifié par Sigilius, 26 août 2010 - 06:17 .

[pf17456]

jlb524 wrote...
Yes...they can't do it on their own, but for some reason, linking with another being's nervous system enables them to randomize one set of their own dna and combine it with the un-randomized version, creating the child.  I doubt this is something they can control consciously, though.

So if I understand you correctly you're saying that Asari combine their DNA with ' unrandomized' meaning 'selective' DNA strands of their partner on an instinctual level. If this is what you're saying I very much agree.  

[jlb524]

pf17456 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Yes...they can't do it on their own, but for some reason, linking with another being's nervous system enables them to randomize one set of their own dna and combine it with the un-randomized version, creating the child.  I doubt this is something they can control consciously, though.

So if I understand you correctly you're saying that Asari combine their DNA with ' unrandomized' meaning 'selective' DNA strands of their partner on an instinctual level. If this is what you're saying I very much agree.  

Not really...no DNA from the partner is used.  All genetic material comes from the mother asari.   The melding just triggers some kind of change in the second set the mother provides so the daughter isn't a clone of the mother.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...


But Harbinger's statement about Turians simply takes the cake. Apperently the Turians are too primitiv......

Didn't stop them from reverse-engineering Reaper tech so Shepard could blast that collector ship to kingdome come.

I have to admit, one of the turians flaws is their "bomb everything first, ask questions later" which is a rather primitive trait, but to dismiss the entire race on the basis that they are too primitive?

The best way to look at it is just more Reaper BS'ing.

Sovereign was a lied and BS'ed to Shepard too (it just did it with more style than harbinger). Harbingers taunts mean less than nothing in the end, as they are just that: baseless taunts by a gibbering wreck that thinks it is eternal.

But then, most of the aliens in the game complain that humans are too agresive. It may not be like the Turians where we bomb anything into submission. But jugding from their comments, we're apperently alot more violent than they are.

I simply think that harbinger when talking  about the Turians should have said "Turians.... You have failed us before!" It would make sense and be a nice throwback to ME1.

[Sigilius]

Precisely, pf17456! I believe that, selectively, the asari chose the traits they find most desirable in partners of any species. Indeed, one could make the case that this is a conscious act, due to their mating ritual's roots in a mental process, rather than physical. This leads me to believe that all asari pregnancies are deliberate on the mother's part, a reasoned result of a desire to meld her partner's desirable genetic coding into her own, thus strengthening the child. And while they cannot cause the child to have human hair or differently pigmented skin (to do so would cause them to cease to be asari), they can take their nonphysical traits. Take Shepard for example. He/she is a prime example of traits the asari would desire, the physical strength/stamina/personality that they would desire to instill into their own race. They assimilate all that which makes them stronger, but remain asari. This proposed theory is sound when compared to our current facts about asari, and it is the belief that I support.

Asari don't take the DNA, they take the traits, and code them into their own asari format. Therefore, partners of another species are prefferrable, and partners in general are required. Not to stimulate their processes, in which case the process could be synthesized, but to contribute traits that are much needed. The asari merely re-writes them with the inherently "asari" code she possesses.

Modifié par Sigilius, 26 août 2010 - 06:27 .

[pf17456]

jlb524 wrote...

Not really...no DNA from the partner is used.  All genetic material comes from the mother asari.   The melding just triggers some kind of change in the second set the mother provides so the daughter isn't a clone of the mother.

OK I see what you're saying but I disagree because in this idea there is no gain, no trait of the father passed on and no increase in genetic diversity. In this case the bond mate of the Baria Frontier Asari contributed nothing in genitics to her offspring and the concept of AY being caused by interspecies relations is a myth. As well the motive for interspecies relations has no real basis. Liara's father in this case has no real relevance.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Lizardviking wrote...

But then, most of the aliens in the game complain that humans are too agresive. It may not be like the Turians where we bomb anything into submission. But jugding from their comments, we're apperently alot more violent than they are.

I simply think that harbinger when talking  about the Turians should have said "Turians.... You have failed us before!" It would make sense and be a nice throwback to ME1.

All of the major species have strengths and weaknesses. Humans are often the bullies the wider galaxy makes them out to be. I cant stress how many times in ME1 I wanted to smash specific humans heads into the wall with their "the aliens wont respect us unless we are tough with them" talk. Of course, the supposed upside is that humans are by far the most individualistic species with the most ingenuity.

The turians are extremely orderly and honorable, until it comes to war, where they will happily commit gross war crimes without hesitation.

The asari are always the ones striving for peace, yet are arrogant and cultural tyrants as well. They have never been off the "top spot" for as long as the council has existed.

The salarians are only as good at solving problems as they are creating them etc, etc.

I dont particularly like the whole "good hats, bad hats" thing, because you can see what a mess it makes with species like the asari, where its all a weird mixture of excessive traits and trying to compensate for them but overcompensating and whatnot.

Still, I think it would be even more of a mess if all the galactic species were as individualistic as they need to be. Ultimately we get stuck with humans being the most individualistic simply because they are the easiest to do. Better to leave aliens as being stuck to a few of their alien concepts and rarely deviating from them. Less work and taxing of the imagination that way.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

I'm sure pureblood pairings are more common in asari space.

They might not be. At least for a few thousand more years.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 août 2010 - 07:26 .

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...


But Harbinger's statement about Turians simply takes the cake. Apperently the Turians are too primitiv......

Didn't stop them from reverse-engineering Reaper tech so Shepard could blast that collector ship to kingdome come.

I have to admit, one of the turians flaws is their "bomb everything first, ask questions later" which is a rather primitive trait, but to dismiss the entire race on the basis that they are too primitive?

The best way to look at it is just more Reaper BS'ing.

Sovereign was a lied and BS'ed to Shepard too (it just did it with more style than harbinger). Harbingers taunts mean less than nothing in the end, as they are just that: baseless taunts by a gibbering wreck that thinks it is eternal.

Turians are also descended from pack hunters, hence why they're so anal about always following orders even when they know they shouldn't, and why Garus thinks he's 'not a very good turian.'  That might be why they're considered primitive.  Or maybe Harbinger was created by liquifying a race of loudmouthed racist jerks.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I'm sure pureblood pairings are more common in asari space.

They might not be. At least for a few thousand more years.

But wouldn't that require that there is a substansial population of non-asari in Asari space? Which I don't think will happen for quite some time. Beside.

[Sigilius]

yorkj86, I harbor no anger towards you or your ideas. I am merely enjoying a well-thought-out debate, and I was hoping to expand on our topic coverage. Forgive me if I came across as angry or vindictive in my wording. It was purely unintentional.

[jlb524]

pf17456 wrote...

OK I see what you're saying but I disagree because in this idea there is no gain, no trait of the father passed on and no increase in genetic diversity. In this case the bond mate of the Baria Frontier Asari contributed nothing in genitics to her offspring and the concept of AY being caused by interspecies relations is a myth. As well the motive for interspecies relations has no real basis. Liara's father in this case has no real relevance.

Yes, I just don't see why this is a problem...their genetics don't have to work the exact same way ours do.

And, yes, the motive for interspecies relations really has no basis, IMO.   The taboo against purebloods is what motivates asari to go out and do it....nothing more.

[TMA LIVE]

Lizardviking wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I'm sure pureblood pairings are more common in asari space.

They might not be. At least for a few thousand more years.

But wouldn't that require that there is a substansial population of non-asari in Asari space? Which I don't think will happen for quite some time. Beside.

When your race can live for 1000 years, over population is only a problem if they're living on one world. And under population is only a problem if they aren't having sex during their 1000 years of living. But even if they move to other worlds, it's a huge turn off to be doing the same blue looking women, with the same lesbian relationships, etc. because they're so many clones and look a likes, and less verity. And it was like that for billions of years. Now they got verity (aka, different skin tones), plus a sex boom, with scales, tentacles, males, and King Kong. A whole new bunch of experiences, and more verity of Asari.

Anyways, that's one theory. Here's an early concept of Liara from Redemption.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 août 2010 - 07:24 .

[Yeled]

yorkj86 wrote...

The process of randomization does not preclude the occurrence of genetic mutations.  If they did stay exactly the same, the asari wouldn't have been able to come as far as they have.  This is one of the absurdities I was talking about.

I realize you're no longer here to defend your position, but I think this point is precisely what Sig is saying.  Since we can assume Asari do continue to have genetic mutations, and since by the theory you and jlb are taking Asari are incapable of sharing genetic material with one another, over a long period of time genetic mutations would lead each Asari bloodline into an entirely seperate species.

Humans have genetic mutations, some of which result in the species changing.  But because humans can share these mutations with one another, evolutionary theory would tell us that humans can use these mutations to adapt the entire species.  If humans had a mutation that added a beneficial trait, that trait would enter the gene pool and be shared among large sectors of the population.

But since Asari are incapable of sharing mutations with one another by your theory, any mutation would only be passed mother to daughter, mother to daughter.  If an Asari developed green skin (yes), she might pass that skin pigmentation to her offspring, but never to an Asari who is not a direct (randomized) clone of the original green asari.  Enough of those mutations occuring in different lines would make each Asari bloodline distinct from all others, until the point that they no longer resemble one another as a species.

At some point the only shared species trait might be the ability to reproduce in the Asari manner, but even this is circumspect...a bloodline may develop a mutation that changes this.

Modifié par Yeled, 26 août 2010 - 07:18 .

[Yeled]

jlb524 wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

OK I see what you're saying but I disagree because in this idea there is no gain, no trait of the father passed on and no increase in genetic diversity. In this case the bond mate of the Baria Frontier Asari contributed nothing in genitics to her offspring and the concept of AY being caused by interspecies relations is a myth. As well the motive for interspecies relations has no real basis. Liara's father in this case has no real relevance.

Yes, I just don't see why this is a problem...their genetics don't have to work the exact same way ours do.

And, yes, the motive for interspecies relations really has no basis, IMO.   The taboo against purebloods is what motivates asari to go out and do it....nothing more.

Why would that bias exist then?  You're saying its just completely arbitrary?

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...


Anyways, that's one theory. Here's an early concept of Liara from Redemption.

Ah, interesting...where did you find that at?

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...


Anyways, that's one theory. Here's an early concept of Liara from Redemption.

Ah, interesting...where did you find that at?

It's in the new release of the comic they're selling right now.

[jlb524]

Yeled wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

OK I see what you're saying but I disagree because in this idea there is no gain, no trait of the father passed on and no increase in genetic diversity. In this case the bond mate of the Baria Frontier Asari contributed nothing in genitics to her offspring and the concept of AY being caused by interspecies relations is a myth. As well the motive for interspecies relations has no real basis. Liara's father in this case has no real relevance.

Yes, I just don't see why this is a problem...their genetics don't have to work the exact same way ours do.

And, yes, the motive for interspecies relations really has no basis, IMO.   The taboo against purebloods is what motivates asari to go out and do it....nothing more.

Why would that bias exist then?  You're saying its just completely arbitrary?

Not completely arbitrary, I just think the reason is rooted in some historical/cultural event that happened years and years ago.  Perhaps a few Matriarchs wanted to promote interpecies relations in general, so started to push for the asari to mate with non-asari.....this could have been taken too far.  They may have employed various forms of propaganda and even lies to facilitate this.  I just don't think it has anything to do with gaining a genetic advantage.

It's all similar to the taboo against homosexual relationships, IMO.

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...


It's in the new release of the comic they're selling right now.

Oh, the trade paperback version?  Yeah...I didn't get that.

[Yeled]

jlb524 wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Why would that bias exist then?  You're saying its just completely arbitrary?

Not completely arbitrary, I just think the reason is rooted in some historical/cultural event that happened years and years ago.  Perhaps a few Matriarchs wanted to promote interpecies relations in general, so started to push for the asari to mate with non-asari.....this could have been taken too far.  They may have employed various forms of propaganda and even lies to facilitate this.  I just don't think it has anything to do with gaining a genetic advantage.

It's all similar to the taboo against homosexual relationships, IMO.

I suppose that's possible, though I still have issues with the biological reprocussions of a species whose members cannot share genetic material.

Modifié par Yeled, 26 août 2010 - 07:24 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Is it just me or does it look like Liara has hair in that concept art?

[Yeled]

Lizardviking wrote...

Is it just me or does it look like Liara has hair in that concept art?

I saw it as a hood, but now that you mention it...

If you colored it hair color it would look like hair, yes.