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[Phen0m20]

I really wish the Liara DLC came out today. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PERFECT BIRTHDAY PRESENT!!! D:

[jlb524]

Phen0m20 wrote...

I really wish the Liara DLC came out today. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PERFECT BIRTHDAY PRESENT!!! D:

It will be the perfect birthday present for someone...just not you!  Happy B-Day, btw.

[vigna]

Well, tomorrow will be a blue day.....a good blue day. See you guys after I play it..no more spoilers for me.

[Phen0m20]

jlb524 wrote...

Phen0m20 wrote...

I really wish the Liara DLC came out today. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PERFECT BIRTHDAY PRESENT!!! D:

It will be the perfect birthday present for someone...just not you!  Happy B-Day, btw.

Thanks jlb!

[epoch_]

Can't wait to pod race tomorrow.

[Slakky]

Driveninhifi wrote...

About character development: the problem is that her motivations in ME2 really don't make any sense if you think about them for 10 seconds.
She's either attempting to avenge her lover (or obsession) Shepard, even though Shepard is standing in her office. Or she's attempting to avenge someone she barely knew and barely liked (from the comics it's pretty clear she only cares about Feron inasmuch as he can help her get to Shepard). Both possibilities are incredibly weak motivations for a 2 year ruthless vendetta (especially given her characterization in ME1).

$5 says they use the data she picked up at the end of the comics as a means to introduce a *shocking secret* in the DLC.  I know it still won't make any sense, w/e.

[Driveninhifi]

Slakky wrote...
$5 says they use the data she picked up at the end of the comics as a means to introduce a *shocking secret* in the DLC.  I know it still won't make any sense, w/e.

Definitely a possibility. While I appreciate them trying to make her motivations fit her character, that would feel weak to me. I worry it would feel like a cop-out since the initial impression of her motivation is so broken. It's not really fair to judge before actually playing the DLC, so there isn't much I can say. Just voicing some concerns based on what occurs in ME2 and the issues with characterization, etc in it.

[jlb524]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Slakky wrote...
$5 says they use the data she picked up at the end of the comics as a means to introduce a *shocking secret* in the DLC.  I know it still won't make any sense, w/e.

Definitely a possibility. While I appreciate them trying to make her motivations fit her character, that would feel weak to me. I worry it would feel like a cop-out since the initial impression of her motivation is so broken. It's not really fair to judge before actually playing the DLC, so there isn't much I can say. Just voicing some concerns based on what occurs in ME2 and the issues with characterization, etc in it.

Why do you think Liara is out of character in ME2?

[Driveninhifi]

I've mentioned stuff about this before, but here are my thoughts:

Basically, I feel they've made a big change to a known character without the corresponding actual character development.

I think her going on a two year revenge mission doesn't fit. As I mentioned earlier, either she's avenging Shepard, or she's avenging Feron. Avenging Feron is hard to believe, because she really doesn't know him at all, and in the comics she barely likes him. She probably feels guilty she got him captured, but that doesn't seem like enough of a motivator to turn into someone completely consumed with vengeance.



The other possibility is that she wants to avenge Shepard (If you read the TLK files, it looks like this was the initial design and Feron was added later. There's similar dialogue with all references to Feron removed, and she explicitly says she's going after the SB "for you and for me"). This I can see; I think Shepard is the only person that could elicit the "I'm going to kill you" reaction in her. She's known Shepard is coming back. She doesn't know if Shepard will hate her or not and she assumes Shep will hate her. So she's angry at the Shadow Broker for ruining her love/friend. That makes a lot of sense. But if Shepard shows up and says he/she wants to pick up where they left off, that has to really temper her anger.



What I think doesn't fit is that she knows Shepard is heading off on a suicide mission and doesn't say anything about it. That really doesn't make sense. Essentially, the player is left with the feeling she's choosing vengeance over Shepard and it doesn't fit. If Shepard dies again, it means literally everything she's done would be pointless - that's a pretty big problem for the writers to ignore. Yet there isn't even a dialogue option for Shepard to broach the subject and that's really unbelievable. Especially in the love interest case - your lover told you they stole your body to bring you back to life because they couldn't let you go. You find out they've been afraid you'd hate them for the last 2 years. Shouldn't there be a reaction from Shepard that both acknowledges the relationship and reassures Liara? Feels very artificial to not include that.

[Driveninhifi]

Really, I should say that I like the ideas a lot, I just think the implementation left a lot to be desired. It's really interesting to have her struggling against the shadow broker and barely holding together/surviving. It's also very interesting to have her spend 2 years terrified Shepard will hate her for what she did and directing that anger towards the Shadow Broker.

This really isn't shown to you though - they could have had a really interesting internal conflict for Liara. Does she rejoin Shepard and live with her guilt about Feron? She can always ask Shepard for help. Does she continue searching and take the chance that her lover/obsession will die again (making Feron's sacrifice pointless)? The game doesn't explore this at all and since that conflict should be central to her character the entire thing feels fake.

Modifié par Driveninhifi, 07 septembre 2010 - 04:54 .

[Alixen]

*yawns*



Well, that was a nice sleep. Too bad it wasn't long enough for the DLC to be released. What time is it in the central US at the moment? 7am here in the UK.



Ah well, while I wait i'll start a true anti-alien Renegade playthrough. never done one before, so it'll be interesting to see how it affects the game.

[ThisIsMadness91]

I've got my Liara-romancing Shepard waiting outside her office to talk about her fight with Nyxeris. I wonder how we'll start the DLC. Dialogue with Liara or an e-mail?

[Captain Iglo]

Damn 360 lucky bastards...they can already download it...and stay away from the Liara shadowbroker video thread if dont wont spoilers.

[ThisIsMadness91]

Captain Iglo wrote...

Damn 360 lucky bastards...they can already download it...and stay away from the Liara shadowbroker video thread if dont wont spoilers.

Thanks for the heads-up! I wasn't expecting it to be out so early. At about 1.5 GB in size, it definitely is the largest ME2 DLC yet, making ME2 the most memory-consuming game on my 360's HDD!

[Captain Iglo]

I think it shoulöd be about 6 hours till the pc release.

[Alixen]

lmao, glad my 360 isn't hooked up, or i'd likely have been booting it up and playing my long abandoned 360 version. I play on the PC now, purely.



My renegade pro-Cerberus playthrough is going well. Just reached Feros.



Yeah, thanks for the heads up. I'll be staying out of the forums (except this thread) until i've completed the new DLC.

[Marcin K]

well, it's a big day today everyone, also hi all, however i'll be hitting downtown in like ~1,5-3hours and be back at like~9pm then i can rejoin the joy with you all

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

Slakky wrote...
$5 says they use the data she picked up at the end of the comics as a means to introduce a *shocking secret* in the DLC.  I know it still won't make any sense, w/e.

Definitely a possibility. While I appreciate them trying to make her motivations fit her character, that would feel weak to me. I worry it would feel like a cop-out since the initial impression of her motivation is so broken. It's not really fair to judge before actually playing the DLC, so there isn't much I can say. Just voicing some concerns based on what occurs in ME2 and the issues with characterization, etc in it.

Why do you think Liara is out of character in ME2?

It's kind of obvious.

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

Slakky wrote...
$5 says they use the data she picked up at the end of the comics as a means to introduce a *shocking secret* in the DLC.  I know it still won't make any sense, w/e.

Definitely a possibility. While I appreciate them trying to make her motivations fit her character, that would feel weak to me. I worry it would feel like a cop-out since the initial impression of her motivation is so broken. It's not really fair to judge before actually playing the DLC, so there isn't much I can say. Just voicing some concerns based on what occurs in ME2 and the issues with characterization, etc in it.

Why do you think Liara is out of character in ME2?

It's kind of obvious.

No...it's not.

[Nightwriter]

Yes it is! (HA! checkmate!)

[Alixen]

Have to say, I also don't think she's out of character. She has just been changed by events. She's still Liara; she's just a little more jaded, and much less naive. That, and she is also immensly angry and bitter towards the Shadow Broker, and maybe even a little towards Shepard for dying.



I'm sure it will all come out in the DLC.



Liara is perhaps one of the deepest character in Mass Effect in my opinion; she starts out the innocent maiden, matures a little and comes out of her shell throughout the original game, has an adventure of her own in her drive to not let go of Shepard, and then in the second game we see what her hunt for revenge has DONE to her.



I put it down to people just not liking change; and perhaps not quite graspign what can happen over two years.

[jlb524]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I've mentioned stuff about this before, but here are my thoughts:
Basically, I feel they've made a big change to a known character without the corresponding actual character development.

I agree they didn't show this properly. 

Driveninhifi wrote...

I think her going on a two year revenge mission doesn't fit. As I mentioned earlier, either she's avenging Shepard, or she's avenging Feron. Avenging Feron is hard to believe, because she really doesn't know him at all, and in the comics she barely likes him. She probably feels guilty she got him captured, but that doesn't seem like enough of a motivator to turn into someone completely consumed with vengeance.

I think Feron getting captured would be enough motivation for someone who's a bit of a perfectionist, and for someone that has a compassionalte heart.  I think Liara has always fit that, so her ME2 actions aren't completely out of character, IMO.

Driveninhifi wrote...

The other possibility is that she wants to avenge Shepard (If you read the TLK files, it looks like this was the initial design and Feron was added later. There's similar dialogue with all references to Feron removed, and she explicitly says she's going after the SB "for you and for me"). This I can see; I think Shepard is the only person that could elicit the "I'm going to kill you" reaction in her. She's known Shepard is coming back. She doesn't know if Shepard will hate her or not and she assumes Shep will hate her. So she's angry at the Shadow Broker for ruining her love/friend. That makes a lot of sense. But if Shepard shows up and says he/she wants to pick up where they left off, that has to really temper her anger.

The Shepard angle could be just as weak as the Feron one though...Liara doesn't always romance Shepard...she might not even know Shepard that well, if she was rescued late. 

Driveninhifi wrote...

What I think doesn't fit is that she knows Shepard is heading off on a suicide mission and doesn't say anything about it. That really doesn't make sense. Essentially, the player is left with the feeling she's choosing vengeance over Shepard and it doesn't fit. If Shepard dies again, it means literally everything she's done would be pointless - that's a pretty big problem for the writers to ignore. Yet there isn't even a dialogue option for Shepard to broach the subject and that's really unbelievable. Especially in the love interest case - your lover told you they stole your body to bring you back to life because they couldn't let you go. You find out they've been afraid you'd hate them for the last 2 years. Shouldn't there be a reaction from Shepard that both acknowledges the relationship and reassures Liara? Feels very artificial to not include that.

The writing for Shepard was poor, I'll agree there.  But forgetting about that, Liara's not needed for the suicide mission, and she feels that what she is doing with the Shadow Broker is more important.  I guess you either trust her judgement or not....we shall see soon if there's more to her hunt than vengeance (or to find Feron).  I think there is, and we will find this out soon.

Nightwriter wrote...

Yes it is! (HA! checkmate!)

Nuh huh.

Modifié par jlb524, 07 septembre 2010 - 11:23 .

[upsettingshorts]

Also agree she isn't out of character. The only problem I had with how her appearance was implemented in Mass Effect 2 is that if you select "Liara's need" in the conversation wheel you can't then ask her about what the deal is with the Shadow Broker. Given how many people including myself tried the Liara's needs option, they never got to hear why she was so changed - and thus felt betrayed. And most of them didn't know about Redemption.



Luckily in my first playthrough I picked the Shadow Broker option and was really perplexed by the backlash over her appearance on various forums at first.

[Nightwriter]

Liara is out of character because the change we see from ME1 to ME2 is so abrupt, and because her voice actress was rushed through the voice recording. The whole thing therefore comes off as cobbled together and wonky. You are left with the persistent thought, "This doesn't sound like Liara."

I have always approved of the direction they took Liara's character in ME2, if not the execution; she is much more interesting now. However I don't think they pulled it off very well, due to, I believe, lack of any real attention or screentime.

[jlb524]

Nightwriter wrote...

Liara is out of character because the change we see from ME1 to ME2 is so abrupt, and because her voice actress was rushed through the voice recording. The whole thing therefore comes off as cobbled together and wonky. You are left with the persistent thought, "This doesn't sound like Liara."

That doesn't mean she's out of character, but that she appears out of character to some. 

Nightwriter wrote...
I have always approved of the direction they took Liara's character in ME2, if not the execution; she is much more interesting now. However I don't think they pulled it off very well, due to, I believe, lack of any real attention or screentime.

Nuh uh...she hasn't changed...she's always been interesting