50907 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Oh, yeah, I also feel Liara is probably the favorite of the devs as well; I wrote up a page of bulleted reasons why.

It certainly didn't feel that way during the main game. As we said many times: The main problem is not even the short role, it's that even that short role was terribly written. LotSB redeemed that of course. Still, the question is what they plan for ME 3, and also who will be assigned to write the Liara content. If, as some have alleged, the reason for the bad writing in ME 2 was that whoever wrote her role didn't like her character (which would be ridiculous, they aren't supposed to let their own opinion determine the quality of their writing), then that would be one reason more to let the writer(s) of LotSB continue Liara's story.

[ValerioN7]

pacer90 wrote...

Regardless of a wedding or whatever you
guys are talking about I believe that Liara needs to be directly
involved with the conflict resolution of ME3.

ME1 felt right with her there talking about if we should save the destiny ascension or not, popping Saren in the head too.

ME2
came around and she was off in on a ship playing with intel. I was in
the middle of the collector base assuming that me and everyone around me
was going to be turned into very gooey people.

As great of a
character as she is I can't forgive the dev's if she's confined to a 3x3
meter box on a ship far away sending me emails or holovids about my
next mission. She needs to be directly involved, combat or not she needs
to be there when we defeat the reapers, not acting as my spy
overseas.

I'm pretty sure she will have an active role, maybe not in whole game but lately. I just can't see her remaining the Shadow Broker forever.

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Liara might be thought fondly of by
some of the devs, tho I'm fairly sure not by everyone... Given the way
she was written for the release version of ME2 (or butchered and
character derailed, which might be the more accurate term)...

In
fact, I don't think I've seen any dev single her out as a personal
fave... whereas at least Grunt, Jack, and I'm fairly sure Mordin have
all been mentioned.

If i'm not wrong, there is a team apart for writing the plot. We were talking about that team, the "real" writers.

bjdbwea wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Oh, yeah, I also feel Liara is probably the favorite of the devs as well; I wrote up a page of bulleted reasons why.

It
certainly didn't feel that way during the main game. As we said many
times: The main problem is not even the short role, it's that even that
short role was terribly written. LotSB redeemed that of course. Still,
the question is what they plan for ME 3, and also who will be assigned
to write the Liara content. If, as some have alleged, the reason for the
bad writing in ME 2 was that whoever wrote her role didn't like her
character (which would be ridiculous, they aren't supposed to let their
own opinion determine the quality of their writing), then that would be
one reason more to let the writer(s) of LotSB continue Liara's story.

Seems like at the beginning the Shadow Broker's mission and the Nixeris mission were strongly connected (maybe the Observer's mission was part of the second), while actually they're not too much (talking about consequences), and then they decided to cut that mission for creating LotSB. In fact, doing only the Nixeris mission has no sense at all. But at least we got LotSB. The VS had no mission at all, and in ME2 there are no hints for a possible narrative "excuse" for their DLC, which i think it's still possible after all.

Lizardviking wrote...
Aww! Don't forget Mordin. I could imagine that they would constantly ask him to sing them another song!

Sadly, such things will never be shown in the game !

How can you say that? Remember that with BioWare you can never say never and if we'll have the chance to see Liara and Shep's childs, they will surely have some dialogues.


"Mummy, can you sing us something? We can't sleep...."

*coming down from the lab* "I'M THE VERY MODEL OF A SCIENTIST SALARIAN"

"Noooo mummy, not agaiiiiiin... why can't i still use aunt Tali's shotgun???"

Modifié par ValerioN7, 07 octobre 2010 - 02:36 .

[Mox Ruuga]

ValerioN7 wrote...

If i'm not wrong, there is a team apart for writing the plot. We were talking about that team, the "real" writers.

So have any of the writers indicated that they love Liara the best?

The only one among them whose opinions I've read is Weekes, who liked everyone from the ME1 squad and couldn't stand Jack (tho that is due to the fact that her personality is of the type he can't stand in real life, not due to the quality of writing). IIRC he liked Mordin too, but since he wrote the guy...

I haven't seen any dev, writer or otherwise, single Liara out as a particular fav. Doesn't mean they don't like her, but I don't think she's some "golden child" just because she cannot die.

[ValerioN7]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

ValerioN7 wrote...

If i'm not wrong, there is a team apart for writing the plot. We were talking about that team, the "real" writers.

So have any of the writers indicated that they love Liara the best?

The only one among them whose opinions I've read is Weekes, who liked everyone from the ME1 squad and couldn't stand Jack (tho that is due to the fact that her personality is of the type he can't stand in real life, not due to the quality of writing). IIRC he liked Mordin too, but since he wrote the guy...

I haven't seen any dev, writer or otherwise, single Liara out as a particular fav. Doesn't mean they don't like her, but I don't think she's some "golden child" just because she cannot die.

Is not only that "she cannot die", is the fact that she has the most important role. Anyway, we just suggested that Liara's one of the favourite characters of the devs/writers. We judged by the facts, isn't that if you don't say something it can't be true. Probably some of them simply never wanted/thinked to say

"*** is my favourite character"

And i'm not only talking about Liara.

Don't forget that they already know the ME3 characters...

[Mox Ruuga]

ValerioN7 wrote...

Is not only that "she cannot die", is the fact that she has the most important role. Anyway, we just suggested that Liara's one of the favourite characters of the devs/writers. We judged by the facts, isn't that if you don't say something it can't be true. Probably some of them simply never wanted/thinked to say

"*** is my favourite character"

By what facts? The Liara has a more important role in the plot than other squaddies? Well, that's precisely because she's the only one who can't die. This very fact allows the devs to make her important to the overall story in everyones game, unlike Wrex or the Rachni Queen, for example. Garrus and Tali were included in ME2 due to vocal fan support, and thus lost their "immortality". What if Liara had had that vocal support, and had been a mortal member of the suicide squad? Would Tali have starred in that crummy comic book and saved Shepard? Would Garrus now be the Shadow Broker? Who would have guessed that the meek and good natured archeologist from ME1 would replace the Shadow Broker in ME2? There was no speculation to that effect.

And i'm not only talking about Liara.

Don't forget that they already know the ME3 characters...

I don't quite get your meaning here...

Modifié par Mox Ruuga, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:02 .

[Yeled]

I know you've all had this conversation already, but I finally finished LotSB for the first time after starting a new femshep all the way back in ME1 and playing her into ME2 so I could experience ME2 as it should have played out from the beginning. And I'm egotistical enough to think other people care about my opinion even long after everyone has discussed this to death. So with that in mind...

The portrayal of Liara and her relationship with my shep (who romanced her of course) in LotSB was excellent. The expansion managed to redeem ME2 as a whole for me, and now that I'm not spending half the game waiting/hoping/praying that something meaningful happens with Liara's character I'm finding I can appreciate the other characters and really the entire game a lot more than the first time I played through it.

The developers and writers seemed to understand exactly what was missing/wrong in ME2 and addressed almost everything. They explained, through Liara, how hard it was for her to lose Shepard. They did a fairly good job of handling her obsession with the SB. The let Shepard express her frustration that Liara wasn't immediately on board with continuing their relationship, or even acknowledging that she was back. (Case in point, the line where Shepard says (paraphrasing) "Are you going to make me hack a bunch of terminals again?") It almost seemed that the developers were eavesdropping on us Liara fanatics and taking notes. Maybe they weren't, but if not then they must have felt as many of us did.

They included a few things I know some people were concerned about, such as Liara becoming the Shadow Broker. But I think they handled it well. I'm not sure it bodes well for Liara joining the crew in ME3, but on the other hand I've learned that BioWare will do what it wants and if they want Liara to join the crew they will find a way to make it happen.

On the other hand they threw a few easter eggs in there, such as identifying Liara's "Father" and confirming the SB wasn't always the same person. I know those things have been discussed ad nauseum on this thread, and I appreciate BioWare tossing Liara fans a bone.

My guess is there has been some speculation as to whether BioWare was fixing problems left out of ME2 or if this was planned all along. I believe this was more or less planned from the beginning, and they removed content either because they knew it would be profitable or because it wasn't ready. The hack job they did in ME2 before this expansion was the result...but BioWare went a long way to redeem themselves and restore my faith that ME3 will be as good as advertised.

Modifié par Yeled, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:41 .

[Yeled]

...all that said, I find Liara's line "Thanks for coming" that she says in a very deadpan manner every time I return to the SB ship a bit creepy.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Yeled wrote...

I know you've all had this conversation already, but I finally finished LotSB for the first time after starting a new femshep all the way back in ME1 and playing her into ME2 so I could experience ME2 as it should have played out from the beginning. And I'm egotistical enough to think other people care about my opinion even long after everything has discussed this to death. So with that in mind...

The portrayal of Liara and her relationship with my shep (who romanced her of course) in LotSB was excellent. The expansion managed to redeem ME2 as a whole for me, and now that I'm not spending half the game waiting/hoping/praying that something meaningful happens with Liara's character I'm finding I can appreciate the other characters and really the entire game a lot more than the first time I played through it.

The developers and writers seemed to understand exactly what was missing/wrong in ME2 and addressed almost everything. They explained, through Liara, how hard it was for her to lose Shepard. They did a fairly good job of handling her obsession with the SB. The let Shepard express her frustration that Liara wasn't immediately on board with continuing their relationship, or even acknowledging that she was back. (Case in point, the line where Shepard says (paraphrasing) "Are you going to make me hack a bunch of terminals again?") It almost seemed that the developers were eavesdropping on us Liara fanatics and taking notes. Maybe they weren't, but if not then they must have felt as many of us did.

They included a few things I know some people were concerned about, such as Liara becoming the Shadow Broker. But I think they handled it well. I'm not sure it bodes well for Liara joining the crew in ME3, but on the other hand I've learned that BioWare will do what it wants and if they want Liara to join the crew they will find a way to make it happen.

On the other hand they threw a few easter eggs in there, such as identifying Liara's "Father" and confirming the SB wasn't always the same person. I know those things have been discussed ad nauseum on this thread, and I appreciate BioWare tossing Liara fans a bone.

My guess is there has been some speculation as to whether BioWare was fixing problems left out of ME2 or if this was planned all along. I believe this was more or less planned from the beginning, and they removed content either because they knew it would be profitable or because it wasn't ready. The hack job they did in ME2 before this expansion was the result...but BioWare went a long way to redeem themselves and restore my faith that ME3 will be as good as advertised.

Glad to hear that you got to play and most importantly, enjoy it like everyone else here did! 

And yes I thought Bioware more or less handled the DLC perfectly, althrough I have a naggin fear that some part of the DLC (dialog between Shepard&Liara) weren't part of some grand plan, but rather just things there were made as a result of that god awful Illium-cameo that people rightfully complained about. 

Althrough I do love this DLC and believe in a sense that it contained and did alot ME2 failed to do. I still have a few (very minor) grips with it. Such as the mystery regarding Liara's father being turned into nothing more than a small easter egg, worse is the fact that Vasir was by FAAAAAR one of the most interesting characters i've seen and it's a real shame she gets shafted.

Althrough some hope and optimism have been restored in me regarding ME3, I still won't forgive and forget (like most people) everything yet. Because no matter how good LOTSB is, it won't change how poorly ME2-maingame was handled!

Modifié par Lizardviking, 07 octobre 2010 - 05:49 .

[Mox Ruuga]

I had much the same reaction, Yeled. The excellence of this DLC doesn't redeem the other faults of ME2 for me, but it does rescue Liara from the scrap heap of destroyed and derailed characters. What a difference does a change in writers make!

Yeled wrote...

The developers and writers seemed to understand exactly what was missing/wrong in ME2 and addressed almost everything. They explained, through Liara, how hard it was for her to lose Shepard. They did a fairly good job of handling her obsession with the SB. The let Shepard express her frustration that Liara wasn't immediately on board with continuing their relationship, or even acknowledging that she was back. (Case in point, the line where Shepard says (paraphrasing) "Are you going to make me hack a bunch of terminals again?") It almost seemed that the developers were eavesdropping on us Liara fanatics and taking notes. Maybe they weren't, but if not then they must have felt as many of us did.

Heh, I remember the replacement dialogue me and some others wrote for the wretched unemotional scene of Liara and Shepard's reunion. Bashing the inane hacking missions was an integral part of that... As was the inclusion of Paragon interrupts for Shepard to make "shut up" kisses etc.

I think the result speaks for itself: even many long term critics appreciate LotSB quite highly. It really does seem to combine the best aspects of both ME1 and ME2: great cinematical presentation, slick action gameplay sequences, and an emotionally engaging story with great character moments for Shepard and Liara both. Not to forget all the "Codexy" reference material with the dossiers and vids, expanding the universe with great little tidbits.

This DLC met with the most unanimous reception from the fanbase I've seen in a long time for a Bioware product. All the better that it was a positive one.

If this is the kind of stuff we can expect for ME3... I'd say the third game just might turn out to be the best in the trilogy. But let's wait and see. My hope is that the VS will get a DLC of an equal quality to this one. There really is no excuse in ignoring the "leads" of ME1 like they have been thus far...

[Yeled]

In response to MR and LV, I maybe overstated the case when I said it redeemed ME2 overall for me. It didn't. The underlying story of building a team in preparation for the suicide mission, and all the holes in the plot that came along with that, are still a problem. But by playing through ME2 with the LotSB material included from the get go, the emotional hole that Liara romancers would have felt never exists. Therefore the game itself doesn't ring quite so false to me, and the other problems don't feel as severe.



Maybe I'm just too focused on the romance aspect of the game, but ultimately the emotional part of the shep character is more important to me than action sequences in which I kill loki mechs by the droves.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Yeled wrote...

In response to MR and LV, I maybe overstated the case when I said it redeemed ME2 overall for me. It didn't. The underlying story of building a team in preparation for the suicide mission, and all the holes in the plot that came along with that, are still a problem. But by playing through ME2 with the LotSB material included from the get go, the emotional hole that Liara romancers would have felt never exists. Therefore the game itself doesn't ring quite so false to me, and the other problems don't feel as severe.

Maybe I'm just too focused on the romance aspect of the game, but ultimately the emotional part of the shep character is more important to me than action sequences in which I kill loki mechs by the droves.

I get what you mean, or I think I do.

LOTSB did connect ME1 to ME2 and ultimativly also ME3 emotionally.

[ValerioN7]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

By what facts? The Liara has a more important role in the plot than other squaddies? Well, that's precisely because she's the only one who can't die. This very fact allows the devs to make her important to the overall story in everyones game, unlike Wrex or the Rachni Queen, for example. Garrus and Tali were included in ME2 due to vocal fan support, and thus lost their "immortality". What if Liara had had that vocal support, and had been a mortal member of the suicide squad? Would Tali have starred in that crummy comic book and saved Shepard? Would Garrus now be the Shadow Broker? Who would have guessed that the meek and good natured archeologist from ME1 would replace the Shadow Broker in ME2? There was no speculation to that effect.

No, it's not Liara's big role = She can't die, and nothing else.

It's Liara can't die AND she is the Shadow Broker = She HAS a key role.

I'm trying to explain that she's not important *because* she can't die, but that she can't die *because* she IS important. She had a major plot part in ME1, the whole Therum mission for recruiting her, and in ME2 she had a content who make her the most powerful character into the game, more powerful than TIM, Anderson, The Council, anyone. AND she can't obviously die, or there won't be no Mass Effect. It's a fact. Who can die won't have a big role. Who can't, is because the writers stated that the major role will belong to that character.

Because this IS the Mass Effect plot, there are no "if". "If" Tali saved Shepard, "If" Garrus was she Shadow Broker, "If" they couldn't both die, that would be another game.

If you want to play Mass Effect, you will play with a Liara who saved Shepard, a Liara who is become the Shadow Broker, a Liara who can't be killed because the writers decided that she has a key role, big in ME1, small in ME2 but enormous if you play LotSB, finally revealed in ME3. Period.

And i'm not only talking about Liara.

Don't forget that they already know the ME3 characters...

I don't quite get your meaning here...

I wanted to say that they probably have her own favourite characters, but some of them just don't want to reveal who is the character (for avoiding problems that may probably come out) or maybe they can't, because the character isn't public anymore. They already know the ME3 characters, if they're going to create new ones (which is likely), so maybe they just can't reveal who's is the character for avoiding massive spoilers.

Lizardviking wrote...

I get what you mean, or I think I do.

LOTSB did connect ME1 to ME2 and ultimativly also ME3 emotionally.

Yeah, have you noticed how much LotSB was "different" to the rest of the game? It was ME1's like deep history + ME2 cinematic parts +  ME3 open spoiler. The best of the first two, with something about the third. Perfect

Modifié par ValerioN7, 07 octobre 2010 - 07:32 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

ValerioN7 wrote...

Yeah, have you noticed how much LotSB was "different" to the rest of the game? It was ME1's like deep history + ME2 cinematic parts +  ME3 open spoiler. The best of the first two, with something about the third. Perfect

While what you say is true, I meant more in the lines of story. ME2 felt isolated from ME1, hell everything in ME2 felt isolated from each other. What LOTSB did was to take something important from ME1 (Liara, talk about protheans, spectres) and put it into ME2. LOTSB felt alot more connected to ME1 on a emotional level than the ME2-maingame ever did.

[bjdbwea]

Someone above said that they could now play through ME 2 and appreciate it a lot more. I agree with that, I even bought several other DLCs, only because I now have a reason to still play ME 2, which I would certainly not have done without LotSB.

However, it is also correct that LotSB does not fix any of the numerous other flaws of ME 2. The main game is still a big disappointment in my opinion. I am hopeful though that the developers will look at LotSB and the general praise it has received, and that they will not only continue Liara's story in this way, but also ME 3 as a whole.

[Yeled]

yorkj86 wrote...

Bioware is implementing in the game, through DLC, what players have been asking for. Either that, or they realized, after the fact, that the emotional depth (or lack thereof) of ME2 was unacceptable.

I think the former.  Honestly they've had so much success with ME2 (financially, reviews, etc.) that my guess is they don't take much criticism to heart.  Honestly how can they?  ME2 was a winner from every standpoint that counts.

That said, they may acknowledge that ME2 didn't please everyone, and maybe they are taking steps to address that.  Or maybe someone just did some really great writing.  Who was the lead on LotSB?  Do we know?

[Yeled]

bjdbwea wrote...

Someone above said that they could now play through ME 2 and appreciate it a lot more. I agree with that, I even bought several other DLCs, only because I now have a reason to still play ME 2, which I would certainly not have done without LotSB.

However, it is also correct that LotSB does not fix any of the numerous other flaws of ME 2. The main game is still a big disappointment in my opinion. I am hopeful though that the developers will look at LotSB and the general praise it has received, and that they will not only continue Liara's story in this way, but also ME 3 as a whole.

My concern is that they will continue to release meaningful content that resonates emotionally with true fans only through DLC.

[bjdbwea]

Yeled wrote...

My concern is that they will continue to release meaningful content that resonates emotionally with true fans only through DLC.

Yeah, and make additional money with content that should always have been in the main game. I am quite opposed to the whole concept of DLC anyway. On the other hand, Liara now has a lengthy mission and a very beautiful continuation of her romance.

ME 1 would have been worth double the price in my opinion. Likewise, for the "real" ME 2, an ME 2 that would have continued the story from ME 1 in the same style and quality, I would have been willing to pay double the price. So a few bucks for a DLC as great as LotSB, is okay too in my opinion. Better to pay for meaningful content, than to get none at all.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 07 octobre 2010 - 08:20 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Yeled wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Bioware is implementing in the game, through DLC, what players have been asking for. Either that, or they realized, after the fact, that the emotional depth (or lack thereof) of ME2 was unacceptable.

I think the former.  Honestly they've had so much success with ME2 (financially, reviews, etc.) that my guess is they don't take much criticism to heart.  Honestly how can they?  ME2 was a winner from every standpoint that counts.

That said, they may acknowledge that ME2 didn't please everyone, and maybe they are taking steps to address that.  Or maybe someone just did some really great writing.  Who was the lead on LotSB?  Do we know?

That's a slightly cynical viewpoint that I might share. Bioware does seem all "la-la-la ME2 is perfect!". 

I just hope they realise what went wrong with ME2, and the lessons learned from ME1,ME2, LOTSB will give them the know-how to create an epic conclusion that this trilogy deserves.

[OldMan91]

I just hope they realise what went wrong with ME2, and the lessons learned from ME1,ME2, LOTSB will give them the know-how to create an epic conclusion that this trilogy deserves.

Give Liara 10 minutes and she'll start a war with your hope.

[CM26617]

Ha ha; that comment counjures up the image of a weary Liara leaning over a holo-table depicting some far-flung battle with the Reapers' lackeys.

[morrie23]

Yeled wrote...
Who was the lead on LotSB?  Do we know?

Patrick Weekes

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

morrie23 wrote...

Yeled wrote...
Who was the lead on LotSB?  Do we know?

Patrick Weekes

That man deserves a medal.

Why isn't he a lead writer?

OldMan91 wrote...

I just
hope they realise what went wrong with ME2, and the lessons learned from
ME1,ME2, LOTSB will give them the know-how to create an epic conclusion
that this trilogy deserves.

Give Liara 10 minutes and she'll start a war with your hope.

So erhhh.... Is that a good thing or a bad thing? 

Modifié par Lizardviking, 08 octobre 2010 - 01:24 .

[morrie23]

Indeed he does.



Mac Walters was lead writer for ME2 as a whole, he isn't listed as a writer for LotSB, so I believe he had little involvement in the DLC. Patrick wasn't a 'lead' writer on ME2, but I believe he was responsible for writing Tali and Mordin among other things. He was definitely a lead on LotSB. The man has talent, I hope he carries on writing Liara in the future.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

morrie23 wrote...

Indeed he does.

Mac Walters was lead writer for ME2 as a whole, he isn't listed as a writer for LotSB, so I believe he had little involvement in the DLC. Patrick wasn't a 'lead' writer on ME2, but I believe he was responsible for writing Tali and Mordin among other things. He was definitely a lead on LotSB. The man has talent, I hope he carries on writing Liara in the future.

So Patrick only writes characters hmm? Perhaps he just isn't strong at writing plots on a large scale. But I wouldn't mind giving him a chance.