50907 réponses à ce sujet

[morrie23]

I think Patrick knows what fans want. (Mac is good at characters too, Wrex, Aria, Garrus are his I believe.) I heard he (Patrick) even pushed for some lines to be added at the start of ME2 so Shep could at least say something about not wanting to work for Cerberus, the initial plan was apparently for Shep to just join up with no questions asked.

Modifié par morrie23, 08 octobre 2010 - 01:37 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

morrie23 wrote...

I think Patrick knows what fans want. (Mac is good at characters too, Wrex, Aria, Garrus are his I believe.) I heard he even pushed for some lines to be added at the start of ME2 so Shep could at least say something about not wanting to work for Cerberus, the initial plan was apparently for Shep to just join up with no questions asked.

I know Mac is good with characters, I just doubt his ability to make a good plot.

And I admire that Patrick pushed to have Shepard say something about it, too bad that in the end it was futile.

[morrie23]

Lizardviking wrote...
I know Mac is good with characters, I just doubt his ability to make a good plot.

Indeed, but the ability of Mac to produce a coherent plot is a discussion for another thread.

Modifié par morrie23, 08 octobre 2010 - 01:44 .

[Mox Ruuga]

Lizardviking wrote...

I know Mac is good with characters, I just doubt his ability to make a good plot.

And I admire that Patrick pushed to have Shepard say something about it, too bad that in the end it was futile.

Walters seems to be good with certain kinds of characters. Attempting to give Liara lines that would have fit Wrex was clearly a mistake... And he didn't seem to "get" the character as Weekes obviously did. But then Weekes already took one of Drew's other characters, Tali, and probably in most peoples' opinion did a stellar job. I am not a Tali fan by any measure so I won't comment there.

Hopefully Weekes will retain "control" of Liara for ME3 as well.

It's Ash and Kaidan I'm more worried about, especially poor Ash. The original writer went to great lengths to dispel the BS about her being a racist, and then whoever wrote her for ME2 had her saying stuff like "You know me skipper, I don't like aliens either... but Cerberus?" Or words to effect.  Like something from a Ash bashing fanfic...

[morrie23]

Yeah Mox, even if you're not a fan of Tali, you can't disagree that her loyalty mission was well done, with plenty of emotion. Same goes for Mordin's loyalty mission, that too is very well written with some very emotional stuff. Both are the work of Weekes, I'm starting to see a pattern with those missions and LotSB.

I'm hopeful that Ash and Kaidan will get what they and their fans deserve in any future VS DLC. I don't think you can write the characters off completely based on vanilla ME2, not after Liara and LotSB.

Modifié par morrie23, 08 octobre 2010 - 02:12 .

[bjdbwea]

Lizardviking wrote...

So Patrick only writes characters hmm? Perhaps he just isn't strong at writing plots on a large scale. But I wouldn't mind giving him a chance.

No offense to anyone, but I don't think that his plot for ME 2 could have been any worse than the plot that is there now.

The writing for LotSB showed great skill on the part of the writer(s), especially of course as far as the writing for Liara is concerned, but the conversations with for example the enemy spectre were very good too. As was the writing for Shepard, which is also a welcome change from much of the main game.

Writing as bad as during the Liara scene on Illium is simply not acceptable, for any important character. If it was inability on the part of the writer, then that writer needs to take some lessons before being allowed to write any important content. If it was because of a dislike for the character, then that is quite unprofessional and must not be allowed either.

Anyway, ME 2 is done. Hopefully, the writing in ME 3 will be up to the standards known from BioWare before. If it's true that Mr. Weekes is responsible for the writing of LotSB and Tali in ME 2 (which was quite well done indeed, even though I don't care about the character), then it should be obvious that he deserves to have a much more prominent role in the writing for ME 3. And of course in the writing of any future Liara content.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 08 octobre 2010 - 02:22 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Mox Ruuga wrote...
It's Ash and Kaidan I'm more worried about, especially poor Ash. The original writer went to great lengths to dispel the BS about her being a racist, and then whoever wrote her for ME2 had her saying stuff like "You know me skipper, I don't like aliens either... but Cerberus?" Or words to effect.  Like something from a Ash bashing fanfic...

I'm not an Ashley fan (nor am I a hater) but that didn't seem OOC of her, she didn't state that she hated aliens. But then I don't have the biggest understanding of the character, and she's KIA in most of my playthroughs, so I proberly never will.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 08 octobre 2010 - 02:14 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

bjdbwea wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

So Patrick only writes characters hmm? Perhaps he just isn't strong at writing plots on a large scale. But I wouldn't mind giving him a chance.

No offense to anyone, but I don't think that his plot for ME 2 could have been any worse than the plot that is there now.

The writing for LotSB showed great skill on the part of the writer(s), especially of course as far as the writing for Liara is concerned, but the conversations with for example the enemy spectre were very good too. As was the writing for Shepard, which is also a welcome change from much of ME 2.

Writing as bad as during the Liara scene on Illium is simply not acceptable, for any important character. If it was inability on the part of the writer, then that writer needs to take some lessons before being allowed to write any important content. If it was because of a dislike for the character, then that is quite unprofessional and must not be allowed either.

Anyway, ME 2 is done. Hopefully, the writing in ME 3 will be up to the standards known from BioWare so far. If it's true that Mr. Weekes is responsible for the writing of LotSB and Tali in ME 2 (which was quite well done indeed, even though I don't care about the character), then it should be obvious that he deserves to have a much more prominent role in the writing for ME 3.

I didn't say I think Patrick is bad, just that perhaps he simply prefer to work with characters because thats what he's good at.

But I agree. If I had a timemachine, then I wouldn't mind checking out how ME2 was handled if Patrick was in charge.

[Mox Ruuga]

Lizardviking wrote...

I'm not an Ashley fan (nor am I a hater) but that didn't seem OOC of her, she didn't state that she hated aliens. But then I don't have the biggest understanding of the character, and she's KIA in most of my playthroughs, so I proberly never will.

It wasn't a question of like or not like with Ash, she simply didn't fully trust their governments and though that it wouldn't be wise to be a Pollyanna about their long term goals. That "Bear and Dog" metaphor that caused a lot of people to simply label her a racist was actually made in defense of the Council, she wasn't talking about her own motivations, simply that the Council would sacrifice humans rather than their own species, and that she understood why they would do it.

Having her actually say something like "I don't like aliens" in the sequel was just gross mishandling of the character from whomever was responsible. Chris L'Etoile (Ash's ME1 writer) was active on the wiki, and had listed the characters whom he had written content for in ME2 before he left Bioware. IIRC Ash wasn't among them (Thane, Legion, and EDI were his, wholly or in part).

Sorry for the tangent.

So how about that Liara? One thing I do hope we'll end up seeing is some sort of interaction between her and Aethyta. Liara's "other mom" is a great character... perhaps she could move in with her daughter to live at the Broker ship? Give that stinking desert lizard a few biotic slams for good measure...

[Yeled]

Well Patrick is my new favorite writer. Honestly I found Tali somewhat boring in ME1, but her loyalty mission might have been my favorite in ME2. The issues that exist between the geth and the quarians are complex and filled with all kinds of gray areas when it comes to morality, and Patrick did an exemplary job highlighting that. And Mordin's stuff was excellent as well.



Hopefully Patrick will continue to handle Liara and other crucial characters...and who knows, maybe they'll hand him the keys to the car and let him drive ME3 overall. His success on LotSB can't hurt his cause.

[bjdbwea]

As far as I know though, the Mass Effect series would never have become so great in the first place without the work of Drew Karpyshyn. It was a very bad move to withdraw him from the series and assign him to work on that MMO. I'm sure the MMO will be better because of it, but is the Mass Effect series not important too?

[Yeled]

bjdbwea wrote...

As far as I know though, the Mass Effect series would never have become so great in the first place without the work of Drew Karpyshyn. It was a very bad move to withdraw him from the series and assign him to work on that MMO. I'm sure the MMO will be better because of it, but is the Mass Effect series not important too?

I guess they decided it was a well established IP, and therefore didn't need the love and care Drew heaped upon it.  And judging from their financial success I doubt they feel they were wrong.

[bjdbwea]

Yeled wrote...

I guess they decided it was a well established IP, and therefore didn't need the love and care Drew heaped upon it.  And judging from their financial success I doubt they feel they were wrong.

I don't know about that. Certainly they did not change the game so much, just to get about the same sales numbers as ME 1. Did you notice how much the price for ME 2 has dropped already? Even below the price for DA. And then the release of a demo, months after the game was already available in stores. I wonder just how much of a commercial success ME 2 really was.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 08 octobre 2010 - 07:58 .

[TMA LIVE]

Yeled wrote...

In response to MR and LV, I maybe overstated the case when I said it redeemed ME2 overall for me. It didn't. The underlying story of building a team in preparation for the suicide mission, and all the holes in the plot that came along with that, are still a problem. But by playing through ME2 with the LotSB material included from the get go, the emotional hole that Liara romancers would have felt never exists. Therefore the game itself doesn't ring quite so false to me, and the other problems don't feel as severe.

Maybe I'm just too focused on the romance aspect of the game, but ultimately the emotional part of the shep character is more important to me than action sequences in which I kill loki mechs by the droves.

That's why I think part of ME2's version of Liara is justified. Though Liara lost a lot of fans because of ME2, it had to be done for drama. You had to feel frustrated with how Liara was treating you, and how she seemed like a completely different person. Because by adding that drama, it makes the get together a more emotionally rewarding experience. As David Gaider said on the DA2 podcast, "We do want to make them upset. Emotional engagement is what we're looking at here. That what we're hoping for. If we wrote something, and we meant for it to cause anguish, and they respond and say, "Ahh, I hated that plot! It caused me so much anguish!" Well, I'd say that's a win for us." 

Sometimes you're suppose to be frustrated, in order for things to have a better story and a better payoff.

However, not everything was planned. As you can see here, this was the original plan (cut-audio).



Though the basic plot still remained the same, a lot of things changed. They also probably cut it out because they weren't happy with it, and wanted to save it for later.

However, because this was DLC, they added and changed things based on feedback. People who wanted to move on to someone else finally got a "just friends" option. People that wanted to argue with Liara got a chance to argue with her about her actions. People that wanted a romance scene got a romance scene. etc. Non fans wanted a chance for Shepard to express his feelings, and they got exactly that.

Other fan suggestions include asking for Liara to be a temp character, which happened. People thought her anger towards the Shadow Broker was lacking a real motive, so they changed the focus to saving Feron. They also joked around with the criticisms. Example, people argued why the Shadow Broker doesn't try to snipe Liara, and in LOTSB, she's sniped at, and saved by hidden shields. People argued why the Shadow Broker doesn't bomb her office, and in LOTSB, the building Liara's in gets bombed, and she survives. 

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 08 octobre 2010 - 09:26 .

[Yeled]

TMA LIVE wrote...


That's why I think part of ME2's version of Liara is justified. Though Liara lost a lot of fans because of ME2, it had to be done for drama. You had to feel frustrated with how Liara was treating you, and how she seemed like a completely different person. Because by adding that drama, it makes the get together a more emotionally rewarding experience. As David Gaider said on the DA2 podcast, "We do want to make them upset. Emotional engagement is what we're looking at here. That what we're hoping for. If we wrote something, and we meant for it to cause anguish, and they respond and say, "Ahh, I hated that plot! It caused me so much anguish!" Well, I'd say that's a win for us." 

Sometimes you're suppose to be frustrated, in order for things to have a better story and a better payoff.

I disagree wholeheartedly with David Gaider on that one.  I think that sentiment is a cop out and an excuse for bad writing.  Sure, its fine for people to be emotionally frustrated if the writing is good and there is payoff in the end.  I got frustrated with Neil Gaimen's American Gods because I wanted the main character to be stronger and stand up for himself (especially with his wife).  But I wasn't frustrated because the writing was poor.  I was frustrated by an intentional character flaw.

And that's what people have wanted all along.  But do you really want to frustrate your audience to the point where they feel no emotional connection to the entire story?

What they did in ME2 regarding Liara (and ash/kaiden) was a hack job, plain and simple.  LotSB fixed that by adding in quality writing, even while incorporating those changes to Liara's character and the emotional distance between her and Shepard.  LotSB may have accomplished what David Gaider was getting at, but ME2, by itself, did not.  It left you slack jawed and feeling you'd somehow been cheated.  That's not a win.

Modifié par Yeled, 08 octobre 2010 - 08:05 .

[bjdbwea]

There is definitely a huge difference between "good writing that frustrates the audience for some time, only to make the happy end more pleasing" and simply "bad writing".

If the Liara scene on Illium in the main game was supposed to be a rocky chapter in the relationship between Shepard and Liara, then that would not have been the worst idea from a story telling perspective. But none of it actually happened. It was bad writing, and that's all there is to it.

It never managed to make me angry at Liara, because the game didn't deliver the context nor the explanations for her behaviour. All it made me angry at were the writers, for the bad job they did. Certainly that's not the "emotional engagement" that Mr. Gaider wants to create. If it is, I wonder what he thinks he can accomplish with it, if it makes people stop buying their games.

How Liara behaved in the beginning of LotSB, was an example of good writing: Shepard wants to talk about the relationship, but Liara is only interested in her mission. This is explained properly and portrayed in a believable way. And the game hints at the chance for a talk later, which indeed happens. That's how you can write such a story. But if, like on Illium, you only have so little time and so few sentences between the characters to begin with, then you don't introduce such a complex change in character in the first place. That should be obvious enough to any good writer.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 08 octobre 2010 - 09:59 .

[pf17456]

I can agree that the ME2 Illium scene left a lot to be desired and seemed pieced together without much concern to having it make any sense. It was frustrating and I'm sure it was the reason many who romanced Liara in ME1 decided to move on. Perhaps that was the intent, to measure the attraction to the Liara character. I suppose if there had been a plausable explanation provided for Liara's behavior in ME2 then more would have remained faithful which would have meant that all of the alternate LI options would have gone un noticed dispite their seductive qualities. I am however giving the writing staff the benifit of the doubt.

In retrospect IMO the frustration experienced initially on Illium was relative to the elation experienced in LotSB and I'm glad I opted to remain faithful to Liara even though my ability to comprehend Liara's behavior clouded by conflicting messages.

[TMA LIVE]

David wasn't talking about the scene with Liara (he was talking about writing plots in general. He doesn't have anything to do with ME. Just Dragon Age.) But I'm just saying the Liara situation was needed, where you're dealing with someone who has completely changed (including her voice), and she won't talk to you. "What's going on Liara? Can't you just talk to me?" "Don't you think I want to, Shepard?" "Damn it Liara, I came to talk to you! Not to help with your petty vendettas." Or how Shepard feels like the relationship is in trouble, but still looks at the picture with sadness before the final battle.

I'm not saying bad writing wasn't involved. It's completely bull**** that neither talked about their relationship till after a fight scene (and possibly months later since when they first met on Illium). And Liara's anger toward the Shadow Broker is completely off (I must make him PAY! They must all PAY! You don't know what he did! I must DESTROY HIM!) since he only tried to sell Shepard, and imprisoned a friend she knew for one day. That doesn't sound like a "I MUST FIT HIM INTO A COFFEE CUP!" kind of motive.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 08 octobre 2010 - 10:14 .

[bjdbwea]

pf17456 wrote...

In retrospect IMO the frustration experienced initially on Illium was relative to the elation experienced in LotSB and I'm glad I opted to remain faithful to Liara even though my ability to comprehend Liara's behavior clouded by conflicting messages.

I think that the initial disappointment with Liara's role in ME 2, the waiting for and the price of the DLC were worth it, considering how beautiful LotSB is. That fixes the disappointment with ME 2 as far as Liara's role in it is concerned. It doesn't improve the rest of the game, but it gives me something to look forward to during that rest of the game, and therefore a reason to still play ME 2 at all.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 08 octobre 2010 - 10:25 .

[pf17456]

bjdbwea wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

In retrospect IMO the frustration experienced initially on Illium was relative to the elation experienced in LotSB and I'm glad I opted to remain faithful to Liara even though my ability to comprehend Liara's behavior clouded by conflicting messages.

I think that the initial disappointment with Liara's role in ME 2, the waiting for and the price of the DLC were worth it, considering how beautiful LotSB is. That fixes the disappointment with ME 2 as far as Liara's role in it is concerned. It doesn't improve the rest of the game, but it gives me something to look forward to during that rest of the game, and therefore a reason to still play ME 2 at all.

So I did a playthrough where LotSB is the first mission after Horizon ( after completing Liara's hacking quests and talking with the relevant contacts to start the Thane and Samara recruitments ) and save after exploring the SB base but before talking with Liara. Then talk with her and have drinks on the Normandy afterwhich I reload and proceed to the next mission. This way I can visit with Liara after each subsequent mission. In doing so I notice that Liara's conversation changes slightly depending on what stage of the game you're in  to reflect that. I thought this was very thorough on the part of the writing staff.

[bjdbwea]

Could you be a bit more specific? I know that the dialogue on board of the Normandy takes into account whether or not you have completed the main game, but are there any other differences?

Modifié par bjdbwea, 08 octobre 2010 - 11:37 .

[TMA LIVE]

bjdbwea wrote...

Could you be a bit more specific? I know that the dialogue on board of the Normandy takes into account whether or not you have completed the main game, but are there any other differences?

If you never got Liara's "I couldn't let you go" dialogue scene, there's a different version of how she tells you about Feron, and how they saved your body.

Shepard: Who's Feron?

Liara: He was a friend. He helped me recover your body from the Shadow Broker.

Shepard: Why did the Shadow Broker want my corpse?

Liara: He was going to sell you to the Collectors, but Feron and I stopped him. Feron sacrificed himself to save me.

Shepard: So you rescued me? Then how did I end up with Cerberus?

Liara: Well, they gave me intel to help recover you. They actually put Feron with me in the first place. After I got out, I gave you to them. They said they could bring you back.

OPTIONS: You saved me/Thanks for telling me/Why give me to Cerberus?

Why give me to Cerberus?:

Shepard: So you're the one responsible for me ending up with Cerberus? Why?

Liara: Was I suppose to let my friend die when someone offered a silver of hope? (looks at the picture of Feron) They brought you back. And now they're giving me a chance to find Feron.

You saved me:

Shepard: You kept me out of the Collector's hands. Without you, I wouldn't have been able to come back. Thank you.

Liara: You don't know what that means to me, Shepard. I didn't know what you'd be when you came back. If you'd feel... (looks at the picture of Feron) They brought you back. And now they're giving me a chance to find Feron.

[pf17456]

bjdbwea wrote...

Could you be a bit more specific? I know that the dialogue on board of the Normandy takes into account whether or not you have completed the main game, but are there any other differences?

Her dialogue changes slightly with each major event occurring in the game.

After Horizon she'll reference your visions of the beacon on Eden Prime while at the base.

During the crew abduction she will not mention having spoken with Chakwas.

After the CB she'll acknowledge the Reaper attack, Prior she references going through the Omega relay

There are others as well

[drwells123]

Lizardviking wrote...

So Patrick only writes characters hmm? Perhaps he just isn't strong at writing plots on a large scale. But I wouldn't mind giving him a chance.

I'll add my vote that he did a great job and should be given a bigger chunk of the work in the future.

I'd also add that what made LotSB great was the character interactions, not the plot. I could poke fun at a few things about the plot, but it does its job - it serves as a vehicle for some well-written moments between you and Liara, which is what the fans wanted. The scene on the Normandy isn't merely the epilogue, but the payoff of the whole thing, even though it's irrelevant plot-wise.

Also, I think the best thing he did was to show the depth of the relationship not with flashbacks, which any number of "good" writers have blundered into, but through the story, the car chase scene being the best example.

Orson Scott Card has a great book on this subject called "Characters and  Viewpoint". He divides stories into groups under an acronym called MICE, for Milieu, Idea, Character, and Event. He helped me to realize that, for example, you don't HAVE to have great characterization if your story is a milieu, idea, or event story. Or, if your characters are really compelling, you can be forgiven a lot in terms of the other areas, as long as they serve the characters. And so on.

[drwells123]

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm not saying bad writing wasn't involved. It's completely bull**** that neither talked about their relationship till after a fight scene (and possibly months later since when they first met on Illium). And Liara's anger toward the Shadow Broker is completely off (I must make him PAY! They must all PAY! You don't know what he did! I must DESTROY HIM!) since he only tried to sell Shepard, and imprisoned a friend she knew for one day. That doesn't sound like a "I MUST FIT HIM INTO A COFFEE CUP!" kind of motive.

I've been thinking that the end of Redemption would make more sense if Liara had actually abandoned Feron in order to save Shepard, rather than Feron sacrificing himself. Out of character for her? Yes, but suppose she had to choose one or the other.

After that, I think things make more sense. Every time she looks at Shepard, she's going to be sick with guilt, so of course she seems standoffish. She wants to serve up the SB while wearing a Starbucks apron? Displaced guilt is a terrific fountain of hate. She's obsessed? Yes, with righting a terrible wrong she was driven to commit (by love, if you like).

Edit: For fun, try replacing Picard and Lily with Liara and Shepard in this scene:

Modifié par drwells123, 09 octobre 2010 - 04:00 .