50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Texaswarrior]

now that was quick.



thanks man

[IndigoWolfe]

I try to be an active member around here, but I'm not always on. Still, it's nice to see someone new! I love your sig!

Modifié par IndigoWolfe, 18 octobre 2010 - 11:20 .

[The_Numerator]

Alright, I've got a bit of a quandary here.



I'm not sure if this is the best place for it, though-- On the one hand, the most useful input would come from those those who have given Liara a lot of thought, which one naturally assumes everyone hanging about here has.



On the other hand, everyone here also already completely adores Liara, and that could possibly tend to skew responses.



But I'll cast my line, and see what bites, just the same.



So here's the rub:



ME1 concludes, Shepard dies. Everyone is sad.



Maybe you romanced Ashley, maybe you romanced Kaiden, maybe you romanced Liara. Maybe no one. Either way, everyone is still sad.



But somehow, Ashley goes on. And Kaiden goes on. And even Garrus and Tali'Zorah, they go on as well.



But Liara, she can't accept that Shepard is gone-- So first she goes to find where he's "hidden", or "hiding"-- or some such characterization-- because she still can't believe Shepard is actually dead. And then when she does discover that Shepard is really dead, what does she do? She accepts a pact with what is, as far as she knows, the worst collection of scum and villainy this side of Mos Eisley. And why? Because they make some nebulous promises to revive Shepard.



So to recap so far, she's been willing to sell her soul, as far as she's concerned, to the devil, in exchange for some faint and wildly implausible hope that somehow Shepard can be brought back.



Then, as if that weren't enough, in order to fulfill her end of the bargain, she risks her life to go off, basically alone, (alone + 1), and up against the most extensive, secretive, and shadowiest information trading network in the known galaxy.



And she succeeds!





So, and this is the point where I ask that you try and suspend your devotion to Liara for just a moment while you contemplate what's been nagging at me:



Regardless of your feelings for anyone else, regardless of your feelings for Liara-- What the **** are you supposed to do after someone does that for you?



Actually, let's not use "regardless"; let's look at the two most relevant alternatives. If you loved Liara in the first place, then it is uncomplicatedly the most touching, romantic, jaw-droppingly, bafflingly, stupidifying beautiful/horrible/insane thing ever.



But what if you and Liara were just the best of friends before? Then "What the **** are you supposed to do after someone does that for you?" becomes "What the **** happens now, after someone does that for you?"



And more complicated still, what if you wanted to be just the best of friends, but things happened, emotions were running high, and things got intense at Ilos, and you couldn't bring yourself to hurt her, so you kind of just got used to the idea of being more than friends, because she was happy... And then you died, but you came back, and you're still in two-years-ago feeling-mode, and she's endured untold psychological trauma, and it seems like now she just wants to be friends, and that's fine, because that was all you really wanted in the first place, but you're still her best friend and care for her tremendously, so you're still going to do whatever you can to help her. But then things happen and REAL romantic feelings develop for someone, only you find out about everything Liara did and why you're alive... I've got to end this thing before it becomes too much more an incomprehensible wall-of-text, but I trust you see where I'm going with this--



So again, "What the **** are you supposed to do with that?"



And uh, what I think began as a reasonably coherent post may have deteriorated considerably. Ah well. Can't win them all.

[SagaciousTien]

I love Liara. She was my Love Interest in ME1 and I have continued that relationship in ME2 Lair of the Shadow Broker. I am hopeful that she will play a large part in ME3, even if she doesn't become a squad member. I'm hopeful Bioware will keep her important.

[drwells123]

The_Numerator wrote...

Let's break the problem down:

Liara loves you, and you love her: great, no problem.
Liara does not love you, and you do not love her: Again no problem, she just *really* has your back.
Liara does not love you, but you do love her: That sucks. But maybe saving the entire galaxy will impress her sufficiently.
Liara does love you, but you do not love her: You're hosed, especially since she's already demonstrated her willingness to drag you back out of the grave if necessary. Maybe ME3 will have some kind of Fatal Attraction subplot if you break up with her in LotSB.

Edit:

"Honey, I'm home..."

"Hello, Shepard."

"Liara? Uh, good to see you. Hey, have you seen Kelly anywhere?"

(giggle) "She's feeding your fish, Shepard. Look."

"OH  MY  GOD!"

Modifié par drwells123, 19 octobre 2010 - 12:39 .

[IndigoWolfe]

The_Numerator wrote...

ME1 concludes, Shepard dies. Everyone is sad.

Maybe you romanced Ashley, maybe you romanced Kaiden, maybe you romanced Liara. Maybe no one. Either way, everyone is still sad.

But somehow, Ashley goes on. And Kaiden goes on. And even Garrus and Tali'Zorah, they go on as well.

But Liara, she can't accept that Shepard is gone-- So first she goes to find where he's "hidden", or "hiding"-- or some such characterization-- because she still can't believe Shepard is actually dead. And then when she does discover that Shepard is really dead, what does she do? She accepts a pact with what is, as far as she knows, the worst collection of scum and villainy this side of Mos Eisley. And why? Because they make some nebulous promises to revive Shepard.

So to recap so far, she's been willing to sell her soul, as far as she's concerned, to the devil, in exchange for some faint and wildly implausible hope that somehow Shepard can be brought back.

Then, as if that weren't enough, in order to fulfill her end of the bargain, she risks her life to go off, basically alone, (alone + 1), and up against the most extensive, secretive, and shadowiest information trading network in the known galaxy.

And she succeeds!


So, and this is the point where I ask that you try and suspend your devotion to Liara for just a moment while you contemplate what's been nagging at me:

Regardless of your feelings for anyone else, regardless of your feelings for Liara-- What the **** are you supposed to do after someone does that for you?

Actually, let's not use "regardless"; let's look at the two most relevant alternatives. If you loved Liara in the first place, then it is uncomplicatedly the most touching, romantic, jaw-droppingly, bafflingly, stupidifying beautiful/horrible/insane thing ever.

But what if you and Liara were just the best of friends before? Then "What the **** are you supposed to do after someone does that for you?" becomes "What the **** happens now, after someone does that for you?"

And more complicated still, what if you wanted to be just the best of friends, but things happened, emotions were running high, and things got intense at Ilos, and you couldn't bring yourself to hurt her, so you kind of just got used to the idea of being more than friends, because she was happy... And then you died, but you came back, and you're still in two-years-ago feeling-mode, and she's endured untold psychological trauma, and it seems like now she just wants to be friends, and that's fine, because that was all you really wanted in the first place, but you're still her best friend and care for her tremendously, so you're still going to do whatever you can to help her. But then things happen and REAL romantic feelings develop for someone, only you find out about everything Liara did and why you're alive... I've got to end this thing before it becomes too much more an incomprehensible wall-of-text, but I trust you see where I'm going with this--

So again, "What the **** are you supposed to do with that?"

And uh, what I think began as a reasonably coherent post may have deteriorated considerably. Ah well. Can't win them all.

Okay, is there any way you can put that in a nutshell? I have several ideas on how to respond, but I'm not sure I would be responding to the right point.

[Goodwood]

Goodwood understands what you're talking about. He suggests that it might be possible that LotSB allows someone whose Shepard did not romance anyone to initiate a Liara romance -- he hasn't tested this out, of course, but still, it's a hope. Or possibly ME3 will allow for an opening up of a Liara romance for those who, after two games, stayed single (yes, Goodwood knows how unlikely that is, but still...). Insofar as your question, however, all Goodwood can suggest is to help Liara out whenever possible, to be there for her when she needs support. Given the limitations of game mechanics, that's about all one can hope for at this point.

[ozsras]

The_Numerator wrote...

Alright, I've got a bit of a quandary here.

I'm not sure if this is the best place for it, though-- On the one hand, the most useful input would come from those those who have given Liara a lot of thought, which one naturally assumes everyone hanging about here has.

On the other hand, everyone here also already completely adores Liara, and that could possibly tend to skew responses.

But I'll cast my line, and see what bites, just the same.

So here's the rub:

ME1 concludes, Shepard dies. Everyone is sad.

Maybe you romanced Ashley, maybe you romanced Kaiden, maybe you romanced Liara. Maybe no one. Either way, everyone is still sad.

But somehow, Ashley goes on. And Kaiden goes on. And even Garrus and Tali'Zorah, they go on as well.

But Liara, she can't accept that Shepard is gone-- So first she goes to find where he's "hidden", or "hiding"-- or some such characterization-- because she still can't believe Shepard is actually dead. And then when she does discover that Shepard is really dead, what does she do? She accepts a pact with what is, as far as she knows, the worst collection of scum and villainy this side of Mos Eisley. And why? Because they make some nebulous promises to revive Shepard.

So to recap so far, she's been willing to sell her soul, as far as she's concerned, to the devil, in exchange for some faint and wildly implausible hope that somehow Shepard can be brought back.

Then, as if that weren't enough, in order to fulfill her end of the bargain, she risks her life to go off, basically alone, (alone + 1), and up against the most extensive, secretive, and shadowiest information trading network in the known galaxy.

And she succeeds!


So, and this is the point where I ask that you try and suspend your devotion to Liara for just a moment while you contemplate what's been nagging at me:

Regardless of your feelings for anyone else, regardless of your feelings for Liara-- What the **** are you supposed to do after someone does that for you?

Actually, let's not use "regardless"; let's look at the two most relevant alternatives. If you loved Liara in the first place, then it is uncomplicatedly the most touching, romantic, jaw-droppingly, bafflingly, stupidifying beautiful/horrible/insane thing ever.

But what if you and Liara were just the best of friends before? Then "What the **** are you supposed to do after someone does that for you?" becomes "What the **** happens now, after someone does that for you?"

And more complicated still, what if you wanted to be just the best of friends, but things happened, emotions were running high, and things got intense at Ilos, and you couldn't bring yourself to hurt her, so you kind of just got used to the idea of being more than friends, because she was happy... And then you died, but you came back, and you're still in two-years-ago feeling-mode, and she's endured untold psychological trauma, and it seems like now she just wants to be friends, and that's fine, because that was all you really wanted in the first place, but you're still her best friend and care for her tremendously, so you're still going to do whatever you can to help her. But then things happen and REAL romantic feelings develop for someone, only you find out about everything Liara did and why you're alive... I've got to end this thing before it becomes too much more an incomprehensible wall-of-text, but I trust you see where I'm going with this--

So again, "What the **** are you supposed to do with that?"

And uh, what I think began as a reasonably coherent post may have deteriorated considerably. Ah well. Can't win them all.

I think I know what you are asking Numerator or at least I hope so. If your Shepard has moved on and fallen in love with someone else then, you know what? That's totally cool. Liara didn't do it because she wants Shepard to feel obligated to love her back. Liara did it because she loves Shepard period. And yes, that's a huge thing but it's okay for Shepard to not want to start up a romance with her again.

Liara did what she did because Shepard she wanted too, not so Shep would feel like a heel for not returning or wanting to start up the relationship. What she did was huge, was just WOW, you know? But I think even if Shepard's not in a realtionship with her Shep can still be the best friend and support for Liara. Shepard just by being Shepard is enough for Li, so. Uh, yeah.

This got wall-of-text crazy. Sorry 'bout that.

[The_Numerator]

Yeah, sorry. I'm just a little overcome by the heaviness of it all. I need a point to let me brain mellow a bit.

[AlexMBrennan]

The_Numerator wrote...

"What the **** are you supposed to do with that?"

TALK about it. Liara made questionable/wrong decisions based on, ultimately, her inability to deal with Shepard's death.

Now, given that Shepard is likely to die before Liara does this issue will come up again. So TALK about it - death is just a part of life after all.



Unfortunately, in-game Shepard can't do that and has to stick to suggestive innuendos to continue the romance at all.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

The_Numerator wrote...

Soo.. You romanced Liara in ME1, even through you really just wanted to be friends. Then in ME2 you come back, see Liara. Thinks she just wants to be friends, which is okay to you, since thats what you really wanted in the first place. So you romance someone else, but then feel guilty because Liara did all those things for you?

If that's the case then just break up with her in LOTSB. AFAIK Liara did all those things in redemption because she cares about Shepard, no matter what. I doubt she intends to blackmail Shepard emotionally with her actions. 

[ozsras]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The_Numerator wrote...
"What the **** are you supposed to do with that?"

TALK about it. Liara made questionable/wrong decisions based on, ultimately, her inability to deal with Shepard's death.
Now, given that Shepard is likely to die before Liara does this issue will come up again. So TALK about it - death is just a part of life after all.

Unfortunately, in-game Shepard can't do that and has to stick to suggestive innuendos to continue the romance at all.

QFT, I would have loved to go in-depth about what happened to Shep and most importantly Liara. Remember Liara had never been in a relationship with anyone before Shepard. So she goes on what her mother and others have talked about (i assume) in regards to having relationships with other species. But then- boom the worst happens- Shepard dies and she has to *live* with that. And platitudes don't make the situation better, all those things she said in ME1 about relationships seem hollow to her (i'm just running with this idea bear with me) and she doesn't want to just live with it. If there's a way to bring Shep back or find him/her then Liara will do it.

Anyway fast forward to LotSB and her trying to deal with the fact that Shep is back but that she will have to eventually go through losing Shep all over again. That's just... *heavy* and overwhelming and really hard for her.

Anyway this is all me working it out in my head. But my point was I really wanted to sit down with her and *talk* for reals and not just about 'hey we gonna sex it up now?' but you know dealing with all the crap she's been through.


edited to add: I don't think she made the wrong choice though I am very happy she brought Shepard back.

Modifié par ozsras, 19 octobre 2010 - 01:33 .

[drwells123]

Texaswarrior wrote...

this one has been lurking liara threads for 7 months now and approves.

time to get active, i guess. hello everyone.

Good to have you here Tex

[pacer90]

What does the Galaxy do for Shepard after all he's done? There is no way they can repay him. He isn't doing it for repayment. Shepard is doing it for the galaxy to still exist.



Liara's reasons are the same. There is no repayment anyone can give her other than Shepard being alive. That is her reward. In a sense it is selfish, she is doing it so Shepard can be back in her life.

[pacer90]

Texaswarrior wrote...

this one has been lurking liara threads for 7 months now and approves.

time to get active, i guess. hello everyone.

There is a lot of talent in this thread, both in literary forms and artistic. I reccomend reading some of the newer stuff since LotSB much of it is very high quality.

Modifié par pacer90, 19 octobre 2010 - 01:59 .

[almostinsane]

Liara acts the way she does because she loves you, no matter what. Period.

If you love her back, then it's no problem, but if you don't have any romantic feelings for her, she still gives you the option to remain friends with her, which is true love in my opinion as she just wants you to be alive and happy. She wants Shepard, but she doesn't want him to be with her out of guilt.

Modifié par almostinsane, 19 octobre 2010 - 02:04 .

[drwells123]

Aislinn Trista wrote...

 Liara and FemShep - My Last Breath

Here is a video I just finished, dedicated to my FemShep (Constance Shepard) and Liara T'Soni.

It's high quality.  This is my first Mass Effect video.  Hope you guys like it.

Great work, thanks for sharing!

That makes me think that another good one (if angsty) would be "My Immortal", set after the funeral, with Liara moping/reminiscing. Would probably require custom animations though. Is it actually possible to do that with ME characters?

[pf17456]

The_Numerator wrote...
So again, "What the **** are you supposed to do with that?"

.

I'd say that no matter what your 'real' romantic feelings are for someone else or what your intent was before you've got to stop and consider that there isn't anyone past, present and likely future who would go through that for you.
It's a real stop dead in your tracks realizaton and a point to reconsider. I would suggest that it's time to make a decision and re evaluate your feelings but guilt and obligation should not be reasons to move toward, those should be reasons to keep a safe distance and be grateful unless you savor failure. Liara will be Liara regardless and she's happy Shepard is alive. 

My Shepard, Paragon, Renegade, Male or Female has always had a gut feeling about Liara from way back to their first meeting in ME1 and has always chosen Liara, remained faithful and never looked back because there is no one else who could ever measure up to or come close to Liara as Shepard's partner. To paraphrase Grunt, Liara is Shepard's mate..She has no match. 

Best of luck with your choice

Modifié par pf17456, 19 octobre 2010 - 05:18 .

[AndroLeonidas]

pf17456 wrote...

The_Numerator wrote...
So again, "What the **** are you supposed to do with that?"

.

I'd say that no matter what your 'real' romantic feelings are for someone else or what your intent was before you've got to stop and consider that there isn't anyone past, present and likely future who would go through that for you.
It's a real stop dead in your tracks realizaton and a point to reconsider. I would suggest that it's time to make a decision and re evaluate your feelings but guilt and obligation should not be reasons to move toward, those should be reasons to keep a safe distance and be grateful unless you savor failure. Liara will be Liara regardless and she's happy Shepard is alive. 

My Shepard, Paragon, Renegade, Male or Female has always had a gut feeling about Liara from way back to their first meeting in ME1 and has always chosen Liara, remained faithful and never looked back because there is no one else who could ever measure up to or come close to Liara as Shepard's partner. To paraphrase Grunt, Liara is Shepard's mate..She has no match. 

Best of luck with your choice

Here! Here!

I'll bloody drink to that!!!

[Gibb_Shepard]

The_Numerator wrote...
*snip*

There have already been many great and well thought out answers to this question. But really, it was just very poor writing in the redemption comics. They (Mac Walters) completely overhauled Liara's character, just to make a cool comic. They (Mac Walters) really FUBAR'd her, but at least now with LOTSB you can find RP reasons why Liara did what she did, which have been given thoroughly throughout this thread.

[AlexMBrennan]

I don't think she made the wrong choice though I am very happy she brought Shepard back.

A possibly slightly flawed real-life analogy - would you keep your husband/wife on life support of there is no realistic chance of recovery (or him/her ever regaining consciousness) and hope for a miracle?

I wouldn't want to be kept in such a state, and I wouldn't want my family desperately hoping for a miracle that isn't going to happen.

[Goodwood]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I don't think she made the wrong choice though I am very happy she brought Shepard back.

A possibly slightly flawed real-life analogy - would you keep your husband/wife on life support of there is no realistic chance of recovery (or him/her ever regaining consciousness) and hope for a miracle?
I wouldn't want to be kept in such a state, and I wouldn't want my family desperately hoping for a miracle that isn't going to happen.

While Goodwood is aware that you admit that your analogy is flawed, he would still like to remind you that Shepard actually did die. Given this sequence of events, Goodwood wonders just how Liara found out about Shepard's body, who was going after it, and why. He suggests that it could have been a simple case of her having gotten an anonymous extranet message informing her of Cerberus' or the Collectors' intentions. The point is, this is never illustrated either in the comic or in the game -- that is, to Goodwood's knowledge.

[Texaswarrior]

It's not a perfect analogy, but I don't think it is flawed, just inverted.

After all, Liara had no way of knowing that the Lazarus Project would be successful. It might well have happened that they "resurrected" Shep, got her/his vital functions working again, only to be unable to restore the brain's functions, unable to wake Shep from coma - ever. Until the machines are turned off.
I think this is indeed comparable.


She was desperate. Without Shepard, whether as lover or friend, she felt her life lacked meaning.

"It cannot be. Anything, but not you. Lost forever. No second chances. How am I ever supposed to accept this, and live another thousand years mourning you?"


I think we all know these feelings of loss. These are the feelings that keep the machines running in our world, even if it's futile. These are the feelings that made Liara give Shepard's body to Cerberus.
 

[ValerioN7]

drwells123 wrote...

Aislinn Trista wrote...

 Liara and FemShep - My Last Breath

Here is a video I just finished, dedicated to my FemShep (Constance Shepard) and Liara T'Soni.

It's high quality.  This is my first Mass Effect video.  Hope you guys like it.

Great work, thanks for sharing!

That makes me think that another good one (if angsty) would be "My Immortal", set after the funeral, with Liara moping/reminiscing. Would probably require custom animations though. Is it actually possible to do that with ME characters?

"My Immortal" is actually candidate (not sure) as the song for my next Liara's video, a tribute to LotSB only. Coming... i don't know

pf17456 wrote...

The_Numerator wrote...
So again, "What the **** are you supposed to do with that?"

.

My
Shepard, Paragon, Renegade, Male or Female has always had a gut feeling
about Liara from way back to their first meeting in ME1 and has always
chosen Liara, remained faithful and never looked back because there is
no one else who could ever measure up to or come close to Liara
as Shepard's partner. To paraphrase Grunt, Liara is Shepard's mate..She
has no match. 

Best of luck with your choice

I agree, entirely.

Texaswarrior wrote...


It's not a perfect analogy, but I don't think it is flawed, just inverted.

After
all, Liara had no way of knowing that the Lazarus Project would be
successful. It might well have happened that they "resurrected" Shep,
got her/his vital functions working again, only to be unable to restore
the brain's functions, unable to wake Shep from coma - ever. Until the
machines are turned off.
I think this is indeed comparable.


She was desperate. Without Shepard, whether as lover or friend, she felt her life lacked meaning.

I don't think that Liara's life was all about Shepard. Don't forget that she is 106 (107 in 19 days), 3 times Shepard's age, and she surely traveled a lot for her archeologist's work. So, i just can see an extreme feeling of loyalty and love behind the Shepard's body rescue, not only a desperate need of anything. And she surely thought that if TIM asked her to save Shepard he was sure of the Lazarus Project's success, no one will risk billions of credits only for a chance to bring someone back.

He was SURE of the success of the project, and Liara probably thought that TIM's offer was worth the fight and the risk. It's not like "an Alliance medical team will try to save Shepard's body with charity donations", it's "the most powerful human in the galaxy is ready to spend billions of credits for bringing Shepard back to life. And why, if they're not sure that he will be able to fight again for reaching the organization's goals?"

Modifié par ValerioN7, 19 octobre 2010 - 07:50 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Snippety snip snipper snippyson.

First of all, i will explain my situation with regards to Liara. I romanced her in ME1 because, as a man-shep, it was the least distasteful option. Ash was a xenophobe in a game where the coolest characters are aliens (Garrus, Wrex, Tali). 

Liara to me was more of a completionist quest. I didn't really like her character in ME1 because it just felt too awkward for me (I have an overactive guilt reflex, I hate awkward). Come ME2 I almost always romanced Tali (but, indicative of my previously mention guilt reflex and hate of awkward, I skipped through it the first time).

After hearing Liara's story about my body i was pretty disturbed and very turned off from her character. Seriously, what she did was borderline insane, definitely obsessive, definitely depressing, and all around revolting. I personally would have rather stayed dead, the galaxy be damned.

So I simply didn't have the problem you are describing. But then Lair of the Shadow broker came out and boy did my opinion of her change. She was now the most developed and most realized character in the entire game, and I honestly liked her character and what it represented. Yeah I was still a little creeped out by what she did, but like any unstable person, there was a stable person underneath. She may have acted in a way that I found offputting, but in LotSB she shows that she knew it was rash.

She learned from her mistake (IMO) and became a better person, which is why one of my carryover games has her as an exclusive romance.