50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I'm not offended. But I just fail to see how it's in any shape or form that one is mentally unstable or insane for wanting to bring someone back from the dead, especially if they cared about them.

[GuardianAngel470]

Lizardviking wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I'm not offended. But I just fail to see how it's in any shape or form that one is mentally unstable or insane for wanting to bring someone back from the dead, especially if they cared about them.

There's wanting and doing. Most people going through the grieving process would say they want to bring back the dead, but Liara did it. She obsessed over recoving his body to begin with, and then when she found it she gave it to Cerberus to reanimate. There's a threshold there between imagining what it would be like to have the person back and then saying, "To heck with nature, lets do it".

I didn't say she was completely out of her mind, but she certainly wasn't fully in her right mind.

Her behavior in the face of loss was typical for someone like her. She didn't really have any close friends and then out of the blue she is attacked and then rescued by a handsome (or pretty) Commander and invited to rescue the Galaxy.

She is on something of a euphoria high having saved the Galaxy when her ship and the person who introduced her to the wider galaxy (and possibly romanced her) are destroyed and killed. The symbol of her new life thus destroyed, she obsesses over bringing them back. First, (as I've heard it) simply for the sake of having found the body and gotten closure but then later to bring the person back to life.

The ethical implications of reanimating the dead as well as the philosophical ones are what disturb me about the concept. Liara just seems to not be completely in her right mind to me, both because of those reasons and in spite of them.

[almostinsane]

It's fine with me,Guardian. You are just expressing your opinion. Just note that this is a Liara-fan forum. People are going to be threatened when they perceive a slight against the character they love. It's just human nature, I suppose. Sorry if you felt uncomfortable here.

hamtyl07 wrote...

almostinsane wrote...

Okay, to offset some of the tension....

Wrex: (to Liara) So, you had to bring him back.

Liara: Yes.

Wrex: Is he really that good of a lover?

Liara: (flushes red) Wrex!!!







this bring back a memory of funny comic........i hope we all get which one im hinting at

LOL. You got me. I don't read many comic books.

Wrex: So he's a bad lover?

Liara: No! He's incredible! (blushes purple) I mean...

Joker: We heard some biotic banging earlier, but EDI wouldn't let us watch with the cameras.

Wrex: Pfft, females. You're whipped, Joker.

Modifié par almostinsane, 19 octobre 2010 - 11:16 .

[IndigoWolfe]

Texaswarrior wrote...
By the way, did anyone else think that the in-combat mini conversations between Shepard and Liara in LoTSB seemed a bit .. weird? As if a different writer had been at work?
Shep called her T'Soni instead of Liara, sounded strange. I really don't know where that came from.
Considering that she's his/her (girl)friend, and all.

Well, to be fair, Shepard calls her T'soni only once, as I recall. And Shepard calls Ashley or Kaidan "Williams" or "Alenko" all the time, even if they're in a romance.

[tmk]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
There's wanting and doing. Most people going through the grieving process would say they want to bring back the dead, but Liara did it. She obsessed over recoving his body to begin with, and then when she found it she gave it to Cerberus to reanimate. There's a threshold there between imagining what it would be like to have the person back and then saying, "To heck with nature, lets do it".

Um... you realize "most people" don't bring their loved ones back from the dead for the simple reason they have zero chance to do it? And it's pretty natural to try and give the remains a proper burial, there are these areas called graveyards specifically for that reason.

As for "nature"... well, at some point in the past, a person was considered dead when their heart stopped. Is bringing someone back from clinical death sick and "against nature"?

Modifié par tmk, 19 octobre 2010 - 11:36 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

yorkj86 wrote...

Liara does act decidedly un-asari-like in wanting to see Shepard alive again, but that may be because Shepard rubbed off on her.  Also, he's the only person who sees what's coming.

If we're going to get back in to the "Is Liara obsessed" debate, I'll just throw in my two cents and say that a character having an obsessive personality is an imperfect character.   Imperfect characters are the best characters.   Perfect characters are the worst characters   I don't know why people who dislike Liara think that Liara having an obsessive personality makes her a bad person and bad character.   I don't know why people who like Liara are opposed to Liara having believable flaws.  That's all I'm saying.

I don't find it un-asari. Shepard didn't excatly die of old-age. He was taken from her in an unexpected turn of events.

[hamtyl07]

almostinsane wrote...

It's fine with me,Guardian. You are just expressing your opinion. Just note that this is a Liara-fan forum. People are going to be threatened when they perceive a slight against the character they love. It's just human nature, I suppose. Sorry if you felt uncomfortable here.

hamtyl07 wrote...

almostinsane wrote...

Okay, to offset some of the tension....

Wrex: (to Liara) So, you had to bring him back.

Liara: Yes.

Wrex: Is he really that good of a lover?

Liara: (flushes red) Wrex!!!

gjust bing search or google wrex top hat and you will get the comic im talking about






this bring back a memory of funny comic........i hope we all get which one im hinting at

LOL. You got me. I don't read many comic books.

Wrex: So he's a bad lover?

Liara: No! He's incredible! (blushes purple) I mean...

Joker: We heard some biotic banging earlier, but EDI wouldn't let us watch with the cameras.

Wrex: Pfft, females. You're whipped, Joker.

bing or google search "tophat wrex"

Modifié par hamtyl07, 19 octobre 2010 - 11:54 .

[tmk]

yorkj86 wrote...
Liara does act decidedly un-asari-like in wanting to see Shepard alive again, but that may be because Shepard rubbed off on her.  Also, he's the only person who sees what's coming.

How is she acting un-asari-like? That whole thing with the asari "long view" is about not concentrating on inevitable loss while the partner is still alive. It doesn't mean they just shrug it off and move on when that person actually dies.

yorkj86 wrote...
I don't know why people who dislike Liara think that Liara having an obsessive personality makes her a bad person and bad character.   I don't know why people who like Liara are opposed to Liara having believable flaws.  That's all I'm saying.

"Obsessive personality" isn't a way to make a great character. It's a way to make shallow characters who act the way writer wants "just because", rather than for some understandable motivation of their own. However, I don't think the way Liara acts shows her to be an "obsessive character". She has reasons for wanting to bring back Shepard, as well as stopping the Shadow Broker. Calling her "obsessive" is just a cheap way to explain her behaviour without giving it much though.

Modifié par tmk, 19 octobre 2010 - 11:58 .

[drwells123]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

There's wanting and doing. Most people going through the grieving process would say they want to bring back the dead, but Liara did it. She obsessed over recoving his body to begin with, and then when she found it she gave it to Cerberus to reanimate. There's a threshold there between imagining what it would be like to have the person back and then saying, "To heck with nature, lets do it".

I didn't say she was completely out of her mind, but she certainly wasn't fully in her right mind.

Her behavior in the face of loss was typical for someone like her. She didn't really have any close friends and then out of the blue she is attacked and then rescued by a handsome (or pretty) Commander and invited to rescue the Galaxy.

She is on something of a euphoria high having saved the Galaxy when her ship and the person who introduced her to the wider galaxy (and possibly romanced her) are destroyed and killed. The symbol of her new life thus destroyed, she obsesses over bringing them back. First, (as I've heard it) simply for the sake of having found the body and gotten closure but then later to bring the person back to life.

The ethical implications of reanimating the dead as well as the philosophical ones are what disturb me about the concept. Liara just seems to not be completely in her right mind to me, both because of those reasons and in spite of them.

Fortunately, we have Calvin and Hobbes to guide us here:
http://marcel-oehler...01/19900110.gif

[pacer90]

She's not obsessive at all. She's absurdly loyal to those that make a difference in her life for the better.



Loyalty like that will lead to her wanting to help them, much like they helped her.



The reason she seems obsessed is that she wears her heart on her sleeve. She has no sense of holding in emotion or being calm and cool. SHE IS NOT SHEPARD.



That doesn't mean she isn't developing. ME1 she couldn't even hold in how much she was after you. ME2 it's the big stuff she's having trouble with.

[ValerioN7]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I'm not offended. But I just fail to see how it's in any shape or form that one is mentally unstable or insane for wanting to bring someone back from the dead, especially if they cared about them.

There's wanting and doing. Most people going through the grieving process would say they want to bring back the dead, but Liara did it. She obsessed over recoving his body to begin with, and then when she found it she gave it to Cerberus to reanimate. There's a threshold there between imagining what it would be like to have the person back and then saying, "To heck with nature, lets do it".

I didn't say she was completely out of her mind, but she certainly wasn't fully in her right mind.

Her behavior in the face of loss was typical for someone like her. She didn't really have any close friends and then out of the blue she is attacked and then rescued by a handsome (or pretty) Commander and invited to rescue the Galaxy.

She is on something of a euphoria high having saved the Galaxy when her ship and the person who introduced her to the wider galaxy (and possibly romanced her) are destroyed and killed. The symbol of her new life thus destroyed, she obsesses over bringing them back. First, (as I've heard it) simply for the sake of having found the body and gotten closure but then later to bring the person back to life.

The ethical implications of reanimating the dead as well as the philosophical ones are what disturb me about the concept. Liara just seems to not be completely in her right mind to me, both because of those reasons and in spite of them.

But where is all this "obsession"? Who whouldn't want to bring someone who cares about back to life? It's not like she recovered Shepard's body and then went all over the galaxy like an obsessed searching someone for bringing him back, she had an offer of having Shepard back from a powerful organization, whit a lot of power, resources and money. An organization famous all over the galaxy especially for medical (illegal) experiments.

And she thought it was worth the risk.  Better to have one chance, than nothing. And i'm sure that she knew that the Collectors were trying to get Shepard's body. At least, he could have a funeral.

Where is the "obsession" in this?

tmk wrote...
"Obsessive personality" isn't a way to make a
great character. It's a way to make shallow characters who act the way
writer wants "just because", rather than for some understandable
motivation of their own. However, I don't think the way Liara acts shows
her to be an "obsessive character". She has reasons for wanting to
bring back Shepard, as well as stopping the Shadow Broker. Calling her
"obsessive" is just a cheap way to explain her behaviour without giving
it much though.

^This.

Modifié par ValerioN7, 20 octobre 2010 - 10:24 .

[Texaswarrior]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Her behavior in the face of loss was typical for someone like her. She didn't really have any close friends and then out of the blue she is attacked and then rescued by a handsome (or pretty) Commander and invited to rescue the Galaxy. 

She is on something of a euphoria high having saved the Galaxy when her ship and the person who introduced her to the wider galaxy (and possibly romanced her) are destroyed and killed. The symbol of her new life thus destroyed, she obsesses over bringing them back. First, (as I've heard it) simply for the sake of having found the body and gotten closure but then later to bring the person back to life.

There is quite some truth to this, imo.

Don't get me wrong, Liara is my favorite female character in ME. I agree that her behavior can be described as obsessive. It was one hell of a stunt, but that's what people do in the ME universe. 
I disagree on that what she did was a bad thing. It's all just a matter of opinion and mindset.


My Shep was fine with having been brought back, both to save the galaxy and to see her again.

Obsessing over dead people is bad. That's what the psycho docs tell us, and in today's world, they're right.
She brought him back because she could. Present day humans only don't bring back loved ones because they can't, so the only thing they can do is find closure and live with it.



Yes, I know, some wouldn't. Moral reasons. Mindset, n' all.

[Mox Ruuga]

Liara was so poorly written in the release version of ME2 and the Redemption comic, that I would actually agree in questioning her mental state based on those "depictions" (more like character derailment by Mac Walters).

Lair of the Shadow Broker rescued her from the scrap heap of derailed and destroyed characters. But it doesn't change the fact that her character shift is still very jarring...

Modifié par Mox Ruuga, 20 octobre 2010 - 02:54 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Liara was so poorly written in the release version of ME2 and the Redemption comic, that I would actually agree in questioning her mental state based on those "depictions" (more like character derailment by Mac Walters).

Lair of the Shadow Broker rescued her from the scrap heap of derailed and destroyed characters. But it doesn't change the fact that her character shift is still very jarring...

I don't think the shift was that big. It's just that the Illium cameo was written horibly.

The changes made sense given the circumstances, it's just that such drastic changes demanded some explaination, and it also demands that Shepard doesn't act like an idiot. Which he unfortunely did (throughout the entire game).

Like alot of other things in ME2, it's a good idea executed horribly.

"EDIT"

But yeah, the Redemption comic sucked. Let's all do our best and try to forget it.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 20 octobre 2010 - 03:49 .

[KendallX23]

Liara was well written in LOTSB and...and...that's about it....she does seem obsessed with Shepard...i get it we saved her life...but the fact that after SHep dead she went after the body and told no one else about her plan or what she knew makes me think she wanted SHep just for her....Shep got other friends..why didn't Liara call them for help ?

Modifié par KendallX23, 20 octobre 2010 - 03:54 .

[Babli]

Lizardviking wrote...
But yeah, the Redemption comic sucked. Let's all do our best and try to forget it.

What has been seen, cannot be unseen.

Sadly.

They ruined Liara for me with ME 2. It´s hard to not romance her in first ME for me but in second it was easy to cheat her with Garrus lol. LotSB didnt repair anything for me. It isnt character from ME1 and it definitely isnt any kind of her development. Its like completely new character which I cant like.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

KendallX23 wrote...

Liara was well written in LOTSB and...and...that's about it....she does seem obsessed with Shepard...i get it we saved her life...but the fact that after SHep dead she went after the body and told no one else about her plan or what she knew makes me think she wanted SHep just for her....Shep got other friends..why didn't Liara call them for help ?

She didn't call for help because...

Garrus is either busy working for C-sec or training as a spectre, during the events of Redemption.

Wrex was uniting the krogan clans.

Tali returned to the migrant fleet.

Ash/Kaidan was still with the Alliance, they were presumebly stationed elsewhere after the SR-1 destruction.

So basicly, all the others had other duties to attend to.

And the reason she didn't tell anyone else is because theres a good chance they wouldn't react well to it.

[KendallX23]

Lizardviking wrote...

KendallX23 wrote...

Liara was well written in LOTSB and...and...that's about it....she does seem obsessed with Shepard...i get it we saved her life...but the fact that after SHep dead she went after the body and told no one else about her plan or what she knew makes me think she wanted SHep just for her....Shep got other friends..why didn't Liara call them for help ?

She didn't call for help because...

Garrus is either busy working for C-sec or training as a spectre, during the events of Redemption.

Wrex was uniting the krogan clans.

Tali returned to the migrant fleet.

Ash/Kaidan was still with the Alliance, they were presumebly stationed elsewhere after the SR-1 destruction.

So basicly, all the others had other duties to attend to.

And the reason she didn't tell anyone else is because theres a good chance they wouldn't react well to it.

       so they were to busy to help their commander ?someone who helped them...sounds well let's say unlikely....
        well we don't know how they would react knowing there is a chance to get Shep back alive...look at Anderson in ME2...he dosen't like who u are working with but dosen't go overboard..and is actually still quite friendly...Garrus and tali don't like it but they still go with SHep when he came to them later..
       let's just call it an issue where the writers made it wrong for the sake of keeping the comic neutral from all player choices...

[Mox Ruuga]

Lizardviking wrote...

But yeah, the Redemption comic sucked. Let's all do our best and try to forget it.

Too late!

That filthy worm Feron has now made his first appearance in the game.

There's no escape!

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

KendallX23 wrote...
       so they were to busy to help their commander ?someone who helped them...sounds well let's say unlikely....
        well we don't know how they would react knowing there is a chance to get Shep back alive...look at Anderson in ME2...he dosen't like who u are working with but dosen't go overboard..and is actually still quite friendly...Garrus and tali don't like it but they still go with SHep when he came to them later..
       let's just call it an issue where the writers made it wrong for the sake of keeping the comic neutral from all player choices...

Shepard was dead!

They weren't too busy to help their commander, they were too busy to retrieve a corpse.

And i'm pretty sure that Garrus, Tali and Ash/Kaidan would get pretty angry that Liara sent the corpse of their idol/hero/friend/lover to a terrorist organisation that are known for their inhuman and unethical experiments, in some vain hope that s/he can return.

[Mox Ruuga]

KendallX23 wrote...

Liara was well written in LOTSB and...and...that's about it....she does seem obsessed with Shepard...i get it we saved her life...but the fact that after SHep dead she went after the body and told no one else about her plan or what she knew makes me think she wanted SHep just for her....Shep got other friends..why didn't Liara call them for help ?

Liara sadly contracted the dread disease called Macwaltersitis, which made her addled until around the time Shepard brought her the info that led to the events of LotSB. She wasn't responsible for her actions.

[KendallX23]

Lizardviking wrote...

KendallX23 wrote...
       so they were to busy to help their commander ?someone who helped them...sounds well let's say unlikely....
        well we don't know how they would react knowing there is a chance to get Shep back alive...look at Anderson in ME2...he dosen't like who u are working with but dosen't go overboard..and is actually still quite friendly...Garrus and tali don't like it but they still go with SHep when he came to them later..
       let's just call it an issue where the writers made it wrong for the sake of keeping the comic neutral from all player choices...

Shepard was dead!

They weren't too busy to help their commander, they were too busy to retrieve a corpse.

And i'm pretty sure that Garrus, Tali and Ash/Kaidan would get pretty angry that Liara sent the corpse of their idol/hero/friend/lover to a terrorist organisation that are known for their inhuman and unethical experiments, in some vain hope that s/he can return.

       right..well let's leave this here...as we can go at it for another hour and get nowhere....all is good when it ends well...Liara got Shepard back,saved Feron and is the new SB...got all she wanted..Shep is alive and can save the galaxy...again

       on another subject...dunno if it was talked about but...i think Liara will be a primary target if not the first for the Reapers...she has a lot of info on the galaxy now...and i doubt the Reapers would have a hard time finding that ship...

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

But yeah, the Redemption comic sucked. Let's all do our best and try to forget it.

Too late!

That filthy worm Feron has now made his first appearance in the game.

There's no escape!

Atleast you don't want to strangle in-game Feron as much as his comic-book counterpart.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

KendallX23 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

KendallX23 wrote...
       so they were to busy to help their commander ?someone who helped them...sounds well let's say unlikely....
        well we don't know how they would react knowing there is a chance to get Shep back alive...look at Anderson in ME2...he dosen't like who u are working with but dosen't go overboard..and is actually still quite friendly...Garrus and tali don't like it but they still go with SHep when he came to them later..
       let's just call it an issue where the writers made it wrong for the sake of keeping the comic neutral from all player choices...

Shepard was dead!

They weren't too busy to help their commander, they were too busy to retrieve a corpse.

And i'm pretty sure that Garrus, Tali and Ash/Kaidan would get pretty angry that Liara sent the corpse of their idol/hero/friend/lover to a terrorist organisation that are known for their inhuman and unethical experiments, in some vain hope that s/he can return.

       right..well let's leave this here...as we can go at it for another hour and get nowhere....all is good when it ends well...Liara got Shepard back,saved Feron and is the new SB...got all she wanted..Shep is alive and can save the galaxy...again

Very well, I still stand by my point. I doubt all the other characters would drop all of their duties just to chase after a corpse.