50907 réponses à ce sujet

[adneate]

Mox Ruuga wrote...
I admit, I lost hope for the character after the double Walters whammy of ME2 and Redemption. I still think the character was damaged by those "stories", and I'm not sure if the damage can ever be fully repaired. But I continued to like Liara as she was in ME1. And I like her again now.

And though I might have said so in anger (can't recall), I didn't dump her (as much as you can "dump" a video game character) for another LI. I just took single Shepards through ME1 before ME2's bad features overwhelmed me and I gave up on the game for half a year or so. It took Liara being born anew in LotSB to pull me back. Guess I just couldn't let her go...  How's that for cheesiness?

Well I'll have to say she doesn't really change in LotSB, she still acts exactly the same way the only difference is she wants Shepard to be a part of life rather than trying to pursue her goals all by herself for the time being. In fact the ME2 Liara (if you can call her that) has always existed in some capacity since ME1. The fact of the matter is many people have become "Fans" of a mythical construct rather than who Liara really is. They've inferred a series of qualities on her that largely stem from sexist views about virginity and women. LotSB does nothing to address these concerns, as invalid as they may be, she's still not this virginal paragon of innocence she still becomes the Shadow Broker and she does whatever it takes to accomplish that goal. The only difference is that now you can take her back to the Normandy and have sex with her again, so the goals that apparently were so heinous are now all forgiven.

[Foley2222]

Never mind...

Modifié par Foley2222, 21 octobre 2010 - 09:14 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

rynluna wrote...

I've come across many people who now appreciate Liara's character after the DLC.  I have no problem with those people and think it's awesome that they've given Liara a chance.

It's the cheaters who disgust me. 

Cheater:  Oh, you won't come on the Normandy with me, Liara?!  You're obsessed!  You should have let me die but since you didn't, I'm going to sleep with Miri/Tali/Jack.  I hope you come to your senses.

After LotSB...

Cheater:  Liara cares about me again and she's trying to help me with her new network!  And she'll let me have sex with her too!  I'm THE BIGGEST LIARA FAN EVAR!

Couldn't have said it better myself. That's the attitude that makes me facepalm.

[kraidy1117]

rynluna wrote...

I've come across many people who now appreciate Liara's character after the DLC.  I have no problem with those people and think it's awesome that they've given Liara a chance.

It's the cheaters who disgust me. 

Cheater:  Oh, you won't come on the Normandy with me, Liara?!  You're obsessed!  You should have let me die but since you didn't, I'm going to sleep with Miri/Tali/Jack.  I hope you come to your senses.

After LotSB...

Cheater:  Liara cares about me again and she's trying to help me with her new network!  And she'll let me have sex with her too!  I'm THE BIGGEST LIARA FAN EVAR!

This is my issue too. You like liara after LotSB? That's great, but if you  where always bashing her and now all of a sudden you love her and act liek you where always a Liara fan, nuh uh. I don't buy that.

[Mox Ruuga]

fortunesque wrote...

But it's unfair. Just sayin' Good to see you taking it in stride I guess. 

I liked her in LotSB. At least *someone* wanted to be Shepard's friend 

Well, they were here when I was rather harsh on the state of her character (due to the writing), before finally giving up. And I wasn't the only one. I won't begrudge them taking a few shots at me.

It's funny, LotSB was the first bit of ME2 that actually felt as cool as some of the best bits of ME1 did. And I hadn't actually realized how much I liked Liara as a character, and how great it was that she didn't suck any longer (pardon the expression). In ME2, that is.

But I'm still not hopeful for ME3. And large parts of ME2 continue to suck. The continued deliberate dev silence on the VS being one of the bigger irritants. I liked Ash pretty much just as well in ME1 as Liara, and Kaidan was a fine character as well.

[Captain Iglo]

Just wonder how do you know who is who...which fan stayed faithfull? You guys have a list of names with the categories: Faithfull, Cheated, New one?

Anyway...Liara question: You guys think ya can first time romance her in ME3? Because I picked up my only female Shepard again and I havent romanced anyone with her...so would like to test with her if you could do romance Liara in ME3...had hopes you could do it in LOTSB...but sadly not.

Modifié par Captain Iglo, 21 octobre 2010 - 09:22 .

[Mox Ruuga]

Lizardviking wrote...

I used the "it's the writers fault" excuse. Mostly because how OOC both Shepard and Liara acted in the scene, it made abseloutly no sense at all for why Shepard acted like he did during the scene.

Also, I discovered a magic potion that makes you forget about bad works of fiction (ME:Redemption , star wars prequel, the happening).

It's called bleach.

Heh, yeah, I bet most people use that method in coping with bad writing.

I envy you, things get more easily ruined for me. Luckily, sometimes "the ruination" can be fixed. I admit, I didn't see how they could fix her (given their priorities and displayed quality of writing in ME2), and fully expected the eventual "Liara" DLC to turn out to be yet another shooting gallery rampage against color coded merc bands, where Liara would give us the mission, and make a small appearance at the end.

[fortunesque]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

But it's unfair. Just sayin' Good to see you taking it in stride I guess. 

I liked her in LotSB. At least *someone* wanted to be Shepard's friend 

Well, they were here when I was rather harsh on the state of her character (due to the writing), before finally giving up. And I wasn't the only one. I won't begrudge them taking a few shots at me.

It's funny, LotSB was the first bit of ME2 that actually felt as cool as some of the best bits of ME1 did. And I hadn't actually realized how much I liked Liara as a character, and how great it was that she didn't suck any longer (pardon the expression). In ME2, that is.

But I'm still not hopeful for ME3. And large parts of ME2 continue to suck. The continued deliberate dev silence on the VS being one of the bigger irritants. I liked Ash pretty much just as well in ME1 as Liara, and Kaidan was a fine character as well.

Then I must have walked in here at the wrong moment. I'm thread browsing today. 

And the freaking VS. So much I could say. That's important and vital to dangling ME2 strings and off-topic so I take my leave lol

[Foley2222]

Well we can pretty much guarantee a dlc for the VS ever since they brought back liara in LOTSB..might be far off though because it was first suspected that there was a shadow broker dlc coming out ages ago

Modifié par Foley2222, 21 octobre 2010 - 09:27 .

[Mox Ruuga]

adneate wrote...

Well I'll have to say she doesn't really change in LotSB, she still acts exactly the same way the only difference is she wants Shepard to be a part of life rather than trying to pursue her goals all by herself for the time being. In fact the ME2 Liara (if you can call her that) has always existed in some capacity since ME1. The fact of the matter is many people have become "Fans" of a mythical construct rather than who Liara really is. They've inferred a series of qualities on her that largely stem from sexist views about virginity and women. LotSB does nothing to address these concerns, as invalid as they may be, she's still not this virginal paragon of innocence she still becomes the Shadow Broker and she does whatever it takes to accomplish that goal. The only difference is that now you can take her back to the Normandy and have sex with her again, so the goals that apparently were so heinous are now all forgiven.

Hm. Are you inferring that I (we apostates?) now like Liara because she put out again at the end of the DLC? Is that what you're saying here?

Lol, how crude!

[TMA LIVE]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Does anyone know if Mac ever went on record of writing Liara's scene in ME2? Like is there a link to a credit or something? Or did people just assume he wrote the scene because he wrote the story for Redemption?

I think it was stated that he took over Liara from Drew in the old forums... I'm burrowing through there, if I come upon it I'll post the relevant quote here. But there are thousands upon thousands of posts...

Hmm, if that's the case, I could argue that Mac might have not even written her dialogue, and was more of just controlling her story. Aka, he didn't write the scenes, but he wrote "Liara is an information broker, and will give Shepard information on squadmates. She is hunting the Shadow Broker in order to find her friend. You write the rest".

The reason why I want to find out is that a lot of the time the wrong writer is being blamed or praised. I want to find out if there's anything posted from Mac or Bioware to confirm things. 

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 21 octobre 2010 - 09:30 .

[Mox Ruuga]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Hmm, if that's the case, I could argue that Mac might have not even written her dialogue, and was more of just controlling her story. Aka, he didn't write the scenes, but he wrote "Liara is an information broker, and will give Shepard information on squadmates. She is hunting the Shadow Broker in order to find her friend. You write the rest".

The reason why I want to find out is that a lot of the time the wrong writer is being blamed or praised. I want to find out if there's anything posted from Mac or Bioware to confirm things. 

You might very well be right.

I've actually mellowed a bit on poor Mac lately (tho that might be hard to tell). Even felt sorry for the poor bastard in the News Forum thread that derailed into a bash fest... The way he described Redemption in that interview was rather... careful. I guess he knows the fanbase wasn't thrilled with it, even though it supposedly sold pretty decently.

[jlb524]

adneate wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...
I admit, I lost hope for the character after the double Walters whammy of ME2 and Redemption. I still think the character was damaged by those "stories", and I'm not sure if the damage can ever be fully repaired. But I continued to like Liara as she was in ME1. And I like her again now.

And though I might have said so in anger (can't recall), I didn't dump her (as much as you can "dump" a video game character) for another LI. I just took single Shepards through ME1 before ME2's bad features overwhelmed me and I gave up on the game for half a year or so. It took Liara being born anew in LotSB to pull me back. Guess I just couldn't let her go...  How's that for cheesiness?

Well I'll have to say she doesn't really change in LotSB, she still acts exactly the same way the only difference is she wants Shepard to be a part of life rather than trying to pursue her goals all by herself for the time being. In fact the ME2 Liara (if you can call her that) has always existed in some capacity since ME1. The fact of the matter is many people have become "Fans" of a mythical construct rather than who Liara really is. They've inferred a series of qualities on her that largely stem from sexist views about virginity and women. LotSB does nothing to address these concerns, as invalid as they may be, she's still not this virginal paragon of innocence she still becomes the Shadow Broker and she does whatever it takes to accomplish that goal. The only difference is that now you can take her back to the Normandy and have sex with her again, so the goals that apparently were so heinous are now all forgiven.

This is pretty much it, in a nutshell...plus, whay rynluna said.

fortunesque wrote...

Yeah, but shouldn't you be happy then that your ranks have been added to? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/blushing.png[/smilie]

I guess I'm just a 'quality over quantity' type of gal.

Modifié par jlb524, 21 octobre 2010 - 09:36 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

I used the "it's the writers fault" excuse. Mostly because how OOC both Shepard and Liara acted in the scene, it made abseloutly no sense at all for why Shepard acted like he did during the scene.

Also, I discovered a magic potion that makes you forget about bad works of fiction (ME:Redemption , star wars prequel, the happening).

It's called bleach.

Heh, yeah, I bet most people use that method in coping with bad writing.

I envy you, things get more easily ruined for me. Luckily, sometimes "the ruination" can be fixed. I admit, I didn't see how they could fix her (given their priorities and displayed quality of writing in ME2), and fully expected the eventual "Liara" DLC to turn out to be yet another shooting gallery rampage against color coded merc bands, where Liara would give us the mission, and make a small appearance at the end.

Which method? The magic potion or the excuse?

But really. ****ty writing is the only justification for the illium cameo scene.

Shepard acts OOC (no mention of romance, lame replies when Liara tells the trurth)
Liara acts OOC (no mention of Miranda, Garrus or Tali if they are in the party)

I get that Bioware wanted to portray the dark second chapter of the love story, where both character are due to tragic events that have happend, unsure of where the relationship is, or even if they have a relationship at all left. And I think that was a decent goal.

But instead we get a scene thats way too short to explain one the character's major changes, and where the other character acts like a ****ing brick. 

[Foley2222]

Maybe they were gonna include something but once again like in Mass Effect 1 (with Liara being moved from Caleston and the scenery use for that asteriod mission) their deadline arrived and they decided to cut the liara content...again, that would expliain the audio files.

Im just glad they fixed it..took em long enough

Modifié par Foley2222, 21 octobre 2010 - 09:46 .

[TMA LIVE]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

adneate wrote...

Well I'll have to say she doesn't really change in LotSB, she still acts exactly the same way the only difference is she wants Shepard to be a part of life rather than trying to pursue her goals all by herself for the time being. In fact the ME2 Liara (if you can call her that) has always existed in some capacity since ME1. The fact of the matter is many people have become "Fans" of a mythical construct rather than who Liara really is. They've inferred a series of qualities on her that largely stem from sexist views about virginity and women. LotSB does nothing to address these concerns, as invalid as they may be, she's still not this virginal paragon of innocence she still becomes the Shadow Broker and she does whatever it takes to accomplish that goal. The only difference is that now you can take her back to the Normandy and have sex with her again, so the goals that apparently were so heinous are now all forgiven.

Hm. Are you inferring that I (we apostates?) now like Liara because she put out again at the end of the DLC? Is that what you're saying here?

Lol, how crude!

I just wanted Liara to talk to me, and explain why she needed to do all this (still seems insane just for one guy she knew for a day, but I understand she went through 2 years alone trying to do an impossible job, and it took over her life. A breakdown and unhealthy obsession happened.). But even then, I wasn't happy with the relationship since ME1, and thought Tali might be more of the one to be with. Still, I made a character who was faithful, and didn't do a romance with my main Shep for 5 months after hearing the "I couldn't let you go" line. When I played Liara's DLC, because of the jokes in the car, talking about old times, I felt like she was my Shepard's wife, and we simply haven't married yet. I felt like I finally got to know her, without having to analyze her.

[jlb524]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

The writing improved. The voice acting improved. Even the presentation improved. They gave us what many of us wanted, what we deserved, all the fanservice we were left without when we had the two cold fishes talking to each other like it was another day at the office, between hacking missions. It felt like Liara and Shepard again.

Presentation and continuity matters to me, I was never one to excuse poor writing as "it's not the character's fault if she has a poor writer". The character is the character. If you assing a poor writer to a character, then the character suffers. I can't "wish away" Redemption or blather about "coffee cups".

For me, it was as if Liara finally woke up in LotSB. Or snapped out from a bout of madness. Changed, but now recognizably Liara. There was credible emotion in LotSB, when there was none in ME2. And there is still none in the vanilla ME2 content.

Besides, I can't say I "hated" hated her character. I just considered her a total loss. And I never stopped appreciating the ME1 era Liara, even though I might have said that in anger as well. That might sound contradictory with the above, but it's like having fond memories of someone who was a lovely person a few years ago, but went insane and unrecognizable in later days, and your friendship was destroyed because of that. You care for the person that the maniac used to be.

And yes, Shepard improved in LotSB as well. For one s/he was no longer a cold fish.

I just don't see Liara as 'waking up' in LotSB.  Honestly, she was very much the same cold, 'ME2 Liara' throughout the majority of LotSB.  There's only really one difference...the love scene.  I just find it odd that some feel she's 'back to normal'' only b/c she's willing to enter into a romance with Shepard again.  There's much more to Liara than Shepard, or her relationship to them.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

The writing improved. The voice acting improved. Even the presentation improved. They gave us what many of us wanted, what we deserved, all the fanservice we were left without when we had the two cold fishes talking to each other like it was another day at the office, between hacking missions. It felt like Liara and Shepard again.

Presentation and continuity matters to me, I was never one to excuse poor writing as "it's not the character's fault if she has a poor writer". The character is the character. If you assing a poor writer to a character, then the character suffers. I can't "wish away" Redemption or blather about "coffee cups".

For me, it was as if Liara finally woke up in LotSB. Or snapped out from a bout of madness. Changed, but now recognizably Liara. There was credible emotion in LotSB, when there was none in ME2. And there is still none in the vanilla ME2 content.

Besides, I can't say I "hated" hated her character. I just considered her a total loss. And I never stopped appreciating the ME1 era Liara, even though I might have said that in anger as well. That might sound contradictory with the above, but it's like having fond memories of someone who was a lovely person a few years ago, but went insane and unrecognizable in later days, and your friendship was destroyed because of that. You care for the person that the maniac used to be.

And yes, Shepard improved in LotSB as well. For one s/he was no longer a cold fish.

I just don't see Liara as 'waking up' in LotSB.  Honestly, she was very much the same cold, 'ME2 Liara' throughout the majority of LotSB.  There's only really one difference...the love scene.  I just find it odd that some feel she's 'back to normal'' only b/c she's willing to enter into a romance with Shepard again.  There's much more to Liara than Shepard, or her relationship to them.

I don't remember Liara saying lines like "So's the dead Spectre who's now working for Cerberus", quoting her mother (which seems to go nowhere), and not explaining things if you didn't hit certain things in the right order. Or talk about how she must fit the Shadow Broker into a coffee cup because "I need to make the Shadow Broker pay for what he did" (and then ditch getting revenge after discovering that Feron was alive). Bad enough there was more of this in her original cut dialogue.

[Mox Ruuga]

jlb524 wrote...

I just don't see Liara as 'waking up' in LotSB.  Honestly, she was very much the same cold, 'ME2 Liara' throughout the majority of LotSB.  There's only really one difference...the love scene.  I just find it odd that some feel she's 'back to normal'' only b/c she's willing to enter into a romance with Shepard again.  There's much more to Liara than Shepard, or her relationship to them.

Really?

I for one saw much more emotion from them both. How many "Paragon" interrupts did Shepard get? Three, four? S/he could question Liara about her odd behaviour, show anger about the hacking quests. There was a growing camaraderie between them throughout the mission, as if they were unconsciously clicking back into "squad" mode, only something more familiar than between most other characters and Shep.

Yes, the "coldness" was there, but it wasn't against Shepard. And it wasn't badly acted, written, or presented either, unlike ME2 and Redemption.

I have, I think, on this very thread (few pages back), advocated that Liara should prove more resistant to Shepard's powers of persuasion from LotSB onwards. Like Miranda, she is now more of an equal to Shepard, whether as a friend or as a lover. She is now credible as a poweful woman with her own powerbase. Is it really that hard to believe that at least for me the quality of the writing, voice acting, and "cinematic" presentation made all the difference? The short jump from a meek archeologist into a respected information broker still jars for me, for example.

Sure, the intent in vanilla ME2 and Redemption was to make us believe Liara was "different" now. I didn't buy it until LotSB, it wasn't Liara to me.

You long term loyalists will do yourselves a disservice, if you reduce us apostates to a band of chauvinistic cave men looking for "pure" women to possess.

Modifié par Mox Ruuga, 21 octobre 2010 - 10:10 .

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

I don't remember Liara saying lines like "So's the dead Spectre who's now working for Cerberus", quoting her mother (which seems to go nowhere), and not explaining things if you didn't hit certain things in the right order. Or talk about how she must fit the Shadow Broker into a coffee cup because "I need to make the Shadow Broker pay for what he did" (and then ditch getting revenge after discovering that Feron was alive). Bad enough there was more of this in her original cut dialogue.

No, she just showed no remorse over innocents getting killed by the Shadow Broker agents running through Ilium, or having to throw Saket to the dogs to get what she needed.  Also, 'Get in, get out.  Kill everyone who tries to stop us.' sounds pretty damn rutheless to me.  If your problem is just that her ME2 lines sound 'cheesier' then I can't help you there.  Liara is very much ME2 Liara throughout 85% of LotSB.  Kind of like how she was in ME2 (cold, a bit ruthless, but then you have the 'couldn't let you go' line).

Face it, Liara isn't magically back to ME1 Liara, she's different, and they showed this change in ME2.  The only thing different now is that she's willing to get into a relationship with Shepard again.  That's about it.

I bet money that had the Shepard/Liara relationship not been rekindeld in LotSB (with everything else happening the exact same), we wouldn't be having this conversation now,   She wouldn't be getting fans coming back to her, and they'd still think of her as a 'cold-hearted biatch' and would stick with Tali or Miranda or whomever. 

Modifié par jlb524, 21 octobre 2010 - 10:14 .

[jlb524]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Really?

I for one saw much more emotion from them both. How many "Paragon" interrupts did Shepard get? Three, four? S/he could question Liara about her odd behaviour, show anger about the hacking quests. There was a growing camaraderie between them throughout the mission, as if they were unconsciously clicking back into "squad" mode, only something more familiar than between most other characters and Shep.

Yes, the "coldness" was there, but it wasn't against Shepard. And it wasn't badly acted, written, or presented either, unlike ME2 and Redemption.

I have, I think, on this very thread (few pages back), advocated that Liara should prove more resistant to Shepard's powers of persuasion from LotSB onwards. Like Miranda, she is now more of an equal to Shepard, whether as a friend or as a lover. She is now credible as a poweful woman with her own powerbase. Is it really that hard to believe that at least for me the quality of the writing, voice acting, and "cinematic" presentation made all the difference? The short jump from a meek archeologist into a respected information broker still jars for me, for example.

Sure, the intent in vanilla ME2 and Redemption was to make us believe Liara was "different" now. I didn't buy it until LotSB, it wasn't Liara to me.

Shepard was better, yes...but I'm merely talking about Liara, since this discussion is about her.

She was cold to Shepard in both ME2/LotSB, but also warm, though, in only a few small instances in ME2.  It was still there, though.  Enough for me to keep the faith, at least.

I also never saw Liara as being anything lesser than Shepard's equal.  I think she was always credible as a powerful woman, even in ME2.  Probably b/c I never saw her as a 'meek' young innocent to begin with.

Mox Ruuga wrote...
You long term loyalists will do yourselves a disservice, if you reduce us apostates to a band of chauvinistic cave
men looking for "pure" women to possess.

Well, by reading some of the recent comments in this thread and in other places, that does very much seem to be the case with some.

I also don't see that as a disservice to myself if it's the truth.

Modifié par jlb524, 21 octobre 2010 - 10:22 .