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[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I don't remember Liara saying lines like "So's the dead Spectre who's now working for Cerberus", quoting her mother (which seems to go nowhere), and not explaining things if you didn't hit certain things in the right order. Or talk about how she must fit the Shadow Broker into a coffee cup because "I need to make the Shadow Broker pay for what he did" (and then ditch getting revenge after discovering that Feron was alive). Bad enough there was more of this in her original cut dialogue.

No, she just showed no remorse over innocents getting killed by the Shadow Broker agents running through Ilium, or having to throw Saket to the dogs to get what she needed.  Also, 'Get in, get out.  Kill everyone who tries to stop us.' sounds pretty damn rutheless to me.  If your problem is just that her ME2 lines sound 'cheesier' then I can't help you there.  Liara is very much ME2 Liara throughout 85% of LotSB.  Kind of like how she was in ME2 (cold, a bit ruthless, but then you have the 'couldn't let you go' line).

Face it, Liara isn't magically back to ME1 Liara, she's different, and they showed this change in ME2.  The only thing different now is that she's willing to get into a relationship with Shepard again.  That's about it.

I bet money that had the Shepard/Liara relationship not been rekindeld in LotSB (with everything else happening the exact same), we wouldn't be having this conversation now,   She wouldn't be getting fans coming back to her, and they'd still think of her as a 'cold-hearted biatch' and would stick with Tali or Miranda or whomever. 

The thing that change with Liara was that she was cold, but she wasn't doing it out of anger towards the Shadow Broker. This wasn't petty revenge, with lots of dead people to get pointless information, because "HE MUST PAY!". She was simply trying to redeem herself to Feron. She put her need for revenge away just to rescue him. That was the change that I cared about. That was the change that made me understand and like her again. And when Shepard talks about her being cold, she explains herself. They actually talked as friends. No stupid business.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 21 octobre 2010 - 10:28 .

[jlb524]

IIRC, some stated that Liara's quest against the Shadow Broker wouldn't even be justified if she was only doing it solely for Feron. They see that as a 'waste' as he's just some drell she met and tried to backstab her at various times. I'm not sure if that was you, TMA, but I'm just leaving that there. That 'change' you speak of was very convenient and last minute....'oh, by the way, Feron's alive'. Personally, I still think vengeance motivated Liara to some extent in LotSB, it's just that they seemed to want to focus more on Feron.



And, of course, there's more dialog and exposition in LotSB than there was in Liara's tiny little cameo...the 'feeling' and mood is very much the same. Liara doesn't want to talk to Shepard about their past relationship...doesn't want to get involved with the Commander.

[adneate]

TMA LIVE wrote...
I just wanted Liara to talk to me, and explain why she needed to do all this (still seems insane just for one guy she knew for a day, but I understand she went through 2 years alone trying to do an impossible job, and it took over her life. A breakdown and unhealthy obsession happened.). But even then, I wasn't happy with the relationship since ME1, and thought Tali might be more of the one to be with. Still, I made a character who was faithful, and didn't do a romance with my main Shep for 5 months after hearing the "I couldn't let you go" line. When I played Liara's DLC, because of the jokes in the car, talking about old times, I felt like she was my Shepard's wife, and we simply haven't married yet. I felt like I finally got to know her, without having to analyze her.

So you're complaint against the character is primarily content based? There wasn't enough content so the character was bad. So therefore you don’t object to her hunt for the Shadow Broker and her hunt for Shepard’s body since given enough content to explain them those two actions should be perfectly fine. I'm curious about the statement that Liara only knew Shepard for one day. Now of course I know that's hyperbole but it's an interesting hyperbole to make, since it connotes that Liara is not mentally stable and her search for Shepard was in fact an unhealthy and damaging obsession on her part. This sentiment seems to stem from the myth that many people look at ME1 Liara as fragile and in need for protection. It ignores the in game dialogue and the facts surrounding the character that she doesn't need someone to look after her and she is more than capable of taking care of herself since she's been doing it since before Shepard was born. Again she's not a spineless character to be molded and pushed around like Tali, she has her own goals and they mean a great deal to her. I imagine when someone tells your Shepard that what they're doing is stupid and pointless and you should just do what they want you to do, you get a little angry. When you do the same to Liara and she gets upset, suddenly she's a weak little doll that's in over it's head only she doesn't know it yet so we have to save her.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

IIRC, some stated that Liara's quest against the Shadow Broker wouldn't even be justified if she was only doing it solely for Feron. They see that as a 'waste' as he's just some drell she met and tried to backstab her at various times. I'm not sure if that was you, TMA, but I'm just leaving that there. That 'change' you speak of was very convenient and last minute....'oh, by the way, Feron's alive'. Personally, I still think vengeance motivated Liara to some extent in LotSB, it's just that they seemed to want to focus more on Feron.

And, of course, there's more dialog and exposition in LotSB than there was in Liara's tiny little cameo...the 'feeling' and mood is very much the same. Liara doesn't want to talk to Shepard about their past relationship...doesn't want to get involved with the Commander.

I do still think it's insane that she did all that for Feron. That's a lot of dead people, and 2 years of work and service. But I think there's honor in that, then when she was just trying to get revenge for small reasons. It's that change that they did that made me understand and like her more.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 21 octobre 2010 - 10:39 .

[Mox Ruuga]

jlb524 wrote...

Shepard was better, yes...but I'm merely talking about Liara, since this discussion is about her.

She was cold to Shepard in both ME2/LotSB, but also warm, though, in only a few small instances in ME2.  It was still there, though.  Enough for me to keep the faith, at least.

I also never saw Liara as being anything lesser than Shepard's equal.  I think she was always credible as a powerful woman, even in ME2.  Probably b/c I never saw her as a 'meek' young innocent to begin with.

Hm. To me she was clearly an inexperienced, rather shy character. The meek "young" wizardess, who nonetheless powerful. Perhaps instead of "meek" I might say "shy", since she never had any problems speaking her mind... The power balance between Shep and her was in Shep's "favor". But then, not every pair need to be equals.

She is clearly not meek or shy any longer, but there's a gap between ME1 and the start of LotSB, where I can't recognize her. The reunion was like a cold meeting between co workers. Or a job interview. I would have loved some credible tension or awkwardness there, but both of them were worse than robotic.

I still don't quite get why she "couldn't get over" any Shep, tho... whether the Shep in question was her Paragon first love or the harsh Renegade who ridiculed her, threatened her, and rescued her only just before Ilos (I have a Shep like that too).

Ah well, forget it Mox, it's the ME2 script...

Well, by reading some of the recent comments in this thread and in other places, that does very much seem to be the case with some.

I also don't see that as a disservice to myself if it's the truth.

Well then!

It will be interesting to see, if this becomes the prominent, dismissive "loyalist" characterization of returning Liara fans and their motives.

[TMA LIVE]

adneate wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
I just wanted Liara to talk to me, and explain why she needed to do all this (still seems insane just for one guy she knew for a day, but I understand she went through 2 years alone trying to do an impossible job, and it took over her life. A breakdown and unhealthy obsession happened.). But even then, I wasn't happy with the relationship since ME1, and thought Tali might be more of the one to be with. Still, I made a character who was faithful, and didn't do a romance with my main Shep for 5 months after hearing the "I couldn't let you go" line. When I played Liara's DLC, because of the jokes in the car, talking about old times, I felt like she was my Shepard's wife, and we simply haven't married yet. I felt like I finally got to know her, without having to analyze her.

So you're complaint against the character is primarily content based? There wasn't enough content so the character was bad. So therefore you don’t object to her hunt for the Shadow Broker and her hunt for Shepard’s body since given enough content to explain them those two actions should be perfectly fine. I'm curious about the statement that Liara only knew Shepard for one day. Now of course I know that's hyperbole but it's an interesting hyperbole to make, since it connotes that Liara is not mentally stable and her search for Shepard was in fact an unhealthy and damaging obsession on her part. This sentiment seems to stem from the myth that many people look at ME1 Liara as fragile and in need for protection. It ignores the in game dialogue and the facts surrounding the character that she doesn't need someone to look after her and she is more than capable of taking care of herself since she's been doing it since before Shepard was born. Again she's not a spineless character to be molded and pushed around like Tali, she has her own goals and they mean a great deal to her. I imagine when someone tells your Shepard that what they're doing is stupid and pointless and you should just do what they want you to do, you get a little angry. When you do the same to Liara and she gets upset, suddenly she's a weak little doll that's in over it's head only she doesn't know it yet so we have to save her.

I meant Feron. She only knew him for one day. That was a breakdown and unhealthy obsession when trying to kill the Shadow Broker in order to redeem herself to Feron. I still have problems with it (because it's insane), but the fact that Liara was willing to throw revenge away to save him did a lot for me. And that it was always about saving or redeeming herself to Feron. Revenge and hate was just what she had to do in order to make her go through with it for 2 years.

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

I do still think it's insane that she did all that for Feron. That's a lot of dead people, and 2 years of work and service. But I think there's honor in that, then when she was just trying to get revenge for small reasons. It's that change that they did that made me understand and like her more.

I still think you are simplifying her motivations for going after the SB to being single-minded.  Like, she went from 'KILL SHADOW BROKER, KILL' to 'Oh, must save Feron' with a flip of the switch.  I feel that both of these have always been motivators for Liara....the Feron one just became a bit stronger and more obvious to us when she found out he was alive.

I honestly don't see much of a difference between ME2 Illium Liara and LotSB Liara (until the very very end after her hunt is over).  She showed warmth towards Shepard back on Illium, smiled, kissed once, gave the heartwrenching 'couldn't let you go' line...very touching, IMO.

[jtav]

I don't find her behavior strange. She feels she did something immoral when she chose to save Shepard's corpse over a living Feron. She feels she has to atone for that.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I do still think it's insane that she did all that for Feron. That's a lot of dead people, and 2 years of work and service. But I think there's honor in that, then when she was just trying to get revenge for small reasons. It's that change that they did that made me understand and like her more.

I still think you are simplifying her motivations for going after the SB to being single-minded.  Like, she went from 'KILL SHADOW BROKER, KILL' to 'Oh, must save Feron' with a flip of the switch.  I feel that both of these have always been motivators for Liara....the Feron one just became a bit stronger and more obvious to us when she found out he was alive.

I honestly don't see much of a difference between ME2 Illium Liara and LotSB Liara (until the very very end after her hunt is over).  She showed warmth towards Shepard back on Illium, smiled, kissed once, gave the heartwrenching 'couldn't let you go' line...very touching, IMO.

Jlb, if you know they change the focus to Feron in the DLC, then you know it wasn't always apart of motivation. It was revenge, and it was horribly written. They "flip the switch" in her DLC.

[Erinlana]

Hey Hey

[jlb524]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Hm. To me she was clearly an inexperienced, rather shy character. The meek "young" wizardess, who nonetheless powerful. Perhaps instead of "meek" I might say "shy", since she never had any problems speaking her mind... The power balance between Shep and her was in Shep's "favor". But then, not every pair need to be equals.

She is clearly not meek or shy any longer, but there's a gap between ME1 and the start of LotSB, where I can't recognize her. The reunion was like a cold meeting between co workers. Or a job interview. I would have loved some credible tension or awkwardness there, but both of them were worse than robotic.

I still don't quite get why she "couldn't get over" any Shep, tho... whether the Shep in question was her Paragon first love or the harsh Renegade who ridiculed her, threatened her, and rescued her only just before Ilos (I have a Shep like that too).

Ah well, forget it Mox, it's the ME2 script...

meek

adjective, -er, -est.

1.humbly patient or docile, as under provocation from others.
2.overly submissive or compliant; spiritless; tame.
3.Obsolete . gentle; kind.

Really, you think Liara was meek?

I admit she was a bit inexperienced in certain areas (like, interacting with people, especially humans) but this does not make one meek, or really even shy.  Though, I do think she is an introvert that prefers solitude most of the time.  That also doesn't make one meek or shy.  

Plus, how was the ME1 power balance in Shep's favor?  As for the relationship, Liara was the one that set the pace for the romance, told an eager Shepard that 'Willing doesn't mean ready' as far as sex goes.  She was the one that initated physical contact, either at the locker scene or during the love scene.  As far as careers go, both were successful (Liara as an archaeologist and Shep as a military person).  I'm not sure one is more powerful in the relationship than the other. 

I know that relationships aren't often equal in real life, and I find that only leads to problems, so I believe they ideally should be, and I personally wouldn't get into one if I felt it was unequal, nor would I enjoy a fictional romance (like, Shep/Liara) if I ever felt it was unequal.  

Modifié par jlb524, 21 octobre 2010 - 10:55 .

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524, please tell me Liara's DLC did more for you then just a love scene with Liara. Because if it didn't, then I don't know what to tell you. Because it was more then that for me.

[adneate]

TMA LIVE wrote...
I meant Feron. She only knew him for one day. That was a breakdown and unhealthy obsession when trying to kill the Shadow Broker in order to redeem herself to Feron. I still have problems with it (because it's insane), but the fact that Liara was willing to throw revenge away to save him did a lot for me. And that it was always about saving or redeeming herself to Feron. Revenge and hate was just what she had to do in order to make her go through with it for 2 years.

So trying to rescue Feron, who she only knew for one day, makes her insane yet at the same time makes her quest for vengeance legitimate. It seems like you're trying to have it both ways, that there is no good reason for her to go after Feron yet at the same time going after Feron makes the character much more reasonable to you. Can you explain how these two contradictory statements justify Liara's actions in LotSB?

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I do still think it's insane that she did all that for Feron. That's a lot of dead people, and 2 years of work and service. But I think there's honor in that, then when she was just trying to get revenge for small reasons. It's that change that they did that made me understand and like her more.

I still think you are simplifying her motivations for going after the SB to being single-minded.  Like, she went from 'KILL SHADOW BROKER, KILL' to 'Oh, must save Feron' with a flip of the switch.  I feel that both of these have always been motivators for Liara....the Feron one just became a bit stronger and more obvious to us when she found out he was alive.

I honestly don't see much of a difference between ME2 Illium Liara and LotSB Liara (until the very very end after her hunt is over).  She showed warmth towards Shepard back on Illium, smiled, kissed once, gave the heartwrenching 'couldn't let you go' line...very touching, IMO.

Jlb, if you know they change the focus to Feron in the DLC, then you know it wasn't always apart of motivation. It was revenge, and it was horribly written. They "flip the switch" in her DLC.

Here...listen.

[pf17456]

The way I see it is that Liara throughout ME2 and much of LotSB was trying very hard to protect her broken heart.

[TMA LIVE]

adneate wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
I meant Feron. She only knew him for one day. That was a breakdown and unhealthy obsession when trying to kill the Shadow Broker in order to redeem herself to Feron. I still have problems with it (because it's insane), but the fact that Liara was willing to throw revenge away to save him did a lot for me. And that it was always about saving or redeeming herself to Feron. Revenge and hate was just what she had to do in order to make her go through with it for 2 years.

So trying to rescue Feron, who she only knew for one day, makes her insane yet at the same time makes her quest for vengeance legitimate. It seems like you're trying to have it both ways, that there is no good reason for her to go after Feron yet at the same time going after Feron makes the character much more reasonable to you. Can you explain how these two contradictory statements justify Liara's actions in LotSB?

Getting people killed, including that guy in the Trade Center, plus becoming an Information Broker, and doing jobs where the bodies still smell, for one man she knew for a day (and also beat the crap out of) is insane. That's small reward, big price (though getting the Shadow Broker base makes that BIG, BIG REWARD!). But I love her for it, even if it is insane. It's better then all that for petty revenge. Knowing that, and that she was willing to throw revenge away to save Feron, was what I liked. 

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 21 octobre 2010 - 11:06 .

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524, please tell me Liara's DLC did more for you then just a love scene with Liara. Because if it didn't, then I don't know what to tell you. Because it was more then that for me.

Of course it did for me...I'm not talking about myself, though.   I thought that was obvious.

My hypothesis is that if LotSB did not contain a love scene, the fans that thought Liara was a 'cold-hearted crazy biatch' in ME2 (but now have returned to the romance only recently) would still think this and continue to bash and belittle her around these forums. They would not continue to romance her, sticking with their ME2 LI. 

However, it did contain a great romance scene, and now Liara's their number one again (for now at least).  This makes me think that all they care about Liara for is for her romance/sex appeal/whatever.

I think LotSB could have worked without a love scene...Liara could have simply told Shepard that she wanted to remain friends for the time being, delaying any romance reconciliation until ME3.  Do you think those that took her back in LotSB and had a change of heart would have waited until ME3 for the romance?  I doubt it.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I do still think it's insane that she did all that for Feron. That's a lot of dead people, and 2 years of work and service. But I think there's honor in that, then when she was just trying to get revenge for small reasons. It's that change that they did that made me understand and like her more.

I still think you are simplifying her motivations for going after the SB to being single-minded.  Like, she went from 'KILL SHADOW BROKER, KILL' to 'Oh, must save Feron' with a flip of the switch.  I feel that both of these have always been motivators for Liara....the Feron one just became a bit stronger and more obvious to us when she found out he was alive.

I honestly don't see much of a difference between ME2 Illium Liara and LotSB Liara (until the very very end after her hunt is over).  She showed warmth towards Shepard back on Illium, smiled, kissed once, gave the heartwrenching 'couldn't let you go' line...very touching, IMO.

Jlb, if you know they change the focus to Feron in the DLC, then you know it wasn't always apart of motivation. It was revenge, and it was horribly written. They "flip the switch" in her DLC.

Here...listen.

I didn't get that, remember? Also, that's for killing Feron, and trying to sell Shepard's body. Not to try and save him, and forget the Shadow Broker.

[Erinlana]

what you guys talking about ?

[IndigoWolfe]

Erinlana wrote...

what you guys talking about ?

I've been watching for a little while, it has something to do with cheaters coming back to Liara after LotSB.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524, please tell me Liara's DLC did more for you then just a love scene with Liara. Because if it didn't, then I don't know what to tell you. Because it was more then that for me.

Of course it did for me...I'm not talking about myself, though.   I thought that was obvious.

My hypothesis is that if LotSB did not contain a love scene, the fans that thought Liara was a 'cold-hearted crazy biatch' in ME2 (but now have returned to the romance only recently) would still think this and continue to bash and belittle her around these forums. They would not continue to romance her, sticking with their ME2 LI. 

However, it did contain a great romance scene, and now Liara's their number one again (for now at least).  This makes me think that all they care about Liara for is for her romance/sex appeal/whatever.

I think LotSB could have worked without a love scene...Liara could have simply told Shepard that she wanted to remain friends for the time being, delaying any romance reconciliation until ME3.  Do you think those that took her back in LotSB and had a change of heart would have waited until ME3 for the romance?  I doubt it.

For some. But if they went the friendship path the way it's designed for Default Shep, I know I would have still broke up with Tali and waited. I understand her now, and I now I'd wait for ME3, no longer feeling like I was trapped with someone I didn't love anymore, or that there would never be a real romance (I felt a lot of that happened during the month after ME1, and I never experienced it). Because that changed.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 21 octobre 2010 - 11:16 .

[pf17456]

Erinlana wrote...

what you guys talking about ?

I believe the discussion is centered around loyal vs fairweathered Liara fans

[Erinlana]

IndigoWolfe wrote...

Erinlana wrote...

what you guys talking about ?

I've been watching for a little while, it has something to do with cheaters coming back to Liara after LotSB.

oh cool , I haven't been on in a while and was just wondering heh 

[jlb524]

mashavasilec wrote...

People are complex things with
complex motivations, they shift and change constantly, expecially with
such groundshaking events that Liara went through. maybe she just needed
a purpose in her life, something to take her mind off the Shepard
situation, or she just considered SB a threat to everything and
everyone. Whe worst thing you can do while analyzing the character is to
oversimplify. Try to use different approaches, to interpret things from
different points of view. Right now it just looks like people are
staring at the wall and don't want to see that it can be passed by both
sides

I agree...her motivations are very complex...it wasn't one thing, then the other at the flip of a switch.

We have discussed Liara's potential motivations ad nauseum in this thread before, and I think all of them are valid to an extent.

TMA LIVE wrote...

I didn't get that, remember? Also, that's for killing Feron, and trying to sell Shepard's body. Not to try and save him, and forget the Shadow Broker.

What are you talking about?  She says....

"I don't know if he's dead or being interrogated.  But I need to find him (Feron).  I owe him my life.  And I need to make the Shadow Broker pay for what he did."

Seems to me, there are two different things she's referring to here...one, finding Feron.  Two, making the Shadow Broker pay for what he did with the Collectors.  The first being the 'honorable' one (feeling she must save Feron out of honor or some type of life debt as he saved her).

TMA LIVE wrote...

For some. But if they went the
friendship path the way it's designed for Default Shep, I know I would
have still broke up with Tali and waited. I understand her now, and I
now I'd wait for ME3, no longer feeling like I was trapped with someone I
didn't love anymore, or that there would never be a real romance (I
felt a lot of that happened during the month after ME1, and I never
experienced it). Because that changed.

That's fine...I wasn't speaking about you in particular...just in general.

Modifié par jlb524, 21 octobre 2010 - 11:17 .