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[Mox Ruuga]

Erinlana wrote...

what you guys talking about ?

Does it matter?

There's life to this old thread yet!

Even though I fear I will end up being tarred and feathered and carried out of the fandom on a rail. Still, it was worth it.

[adneate]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Getting people killed, including that guy in the Trade Center, plus becoming an Information Broker, and doing jobs where the bodies still smell, for one man she knew for a day (and also beat the crap out of) is insane. That's small reward, big price (though getting the Shadow Broker base makes that BIG, BIG REWARD!). But I love her for it, even if it is insane. It's better then all that for petty revenge. Knowing that, and that she was willing to throw revenge away to save Feron, was what I liked. 

How is it better than petty revenge though, aren't both equally insane? You've said she's insane for going after Feron but casting aside revenge makes it okay. I can't seem to follow the jump in logic here, especially since at the end you still kill the shadow broker so technically she got revenge. In fact she got revenge before knowing that Feron wouldn't be insta-fried by the chair when the Shadow Broker died. So did she really cast revenge aside or was there just a minor change in priority?

[Nodarius]

pf17456 wrote...

The way I see it is that Liara throughout ME2 and much of LotSB was trying very hard to protect her broken heart.

Good point

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I didn't get that, remember? Also, that's for killing Feron, and trying to sell Shepard's body. Not to try and save him, and forget the Shadow Broker.

What are you talking about?  She says....

"I don't know if he's dead or being interrogated.  But I need to find him (Feron).  I owe him my life.  And I need to make the Shadow Broker pay for what he did."

Seems to me, there are two different things she's referring to here...one, finding Feron.  Two, making the Shadow Broker pay for what he did with the Collectors.  The first being the 'honorable' one (feeling she must save Feron out of honor or some type of life debt as he saved her).

Yeah, but she thinks he's pretty much dead at that point. And for what the Shadow Broker did was what I always had a problem with. It was vague, with not much details. Before the DLC turn the Shadow Broker into an actual monster (literally), I didn't see a reason for the anger (at least not that type of anger) or killing him, and everyone he had under his employment. It didn't feel like justice, but revenge for something she and Feron did on there own free will (they stole the body from him, and she left Feron behind). And that "maybe" he had more deals with the Reapers. I didn't like it at all. But the fact that she was willing to throw it all away proves it was always more about Feron. That she was willing to skip killing the Shadow Broker in order to save Feron was something I loved.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 21 octobre 2010 - 11:32 .

[TMA LIVE]

adneate wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Getting people killed, including that guy in the Trade Center, plus becoming an Information Broker, and doing jobs where the bodies still smell, for one man she knew for a day (and also beat the crap out of) is insane. That's small reward, big price (though getting the Shadow Broker base makes that BIG, BIG REWARD!). But I love her for it, even if it is insane. It's better then all that for petty revenge. Knowing that, and that she was willing to throw revenge away to save Feron, was what I liked. 

How is it better than petty revenge though, aren't both equally insane? You've said she's insane for going after Feron but casting aside revenge makes it okay. I can't seem to follow the jump in logic here, especially since at the end you still kill the shadow broker so technically she got revenge. In fact she got revenge before knowing that Feron wouldn't be insta-fried by the chair when the Shadow Broker died. So did she really cast revenge aside or was there just a minor change in priority?

Saving a life matter more then taking a life as the end goal. That's what I liked.

[CheesesackIII]

The way I see it, Liara was definately in over her head in ME 2. Now, before people start flaming me, I want to clarify that this is no stain on her character. I mean, she's an information broker who's been going for 2 years. Compare that with the Shadow Broker's vast network of contacts, agents and even a private army. Liara did exceptionally well for herself given the situation; a testemant to her natural aptitude for that kind of work...but no one in the galaxy could hope to challenge the Shadow Broker at his own game; not even Cerberus. What I'm trying to say is that anyone trying to do what Liara was doing would be 'in over their head', even if they'd had a lifetime's experience at it (which Liara doesn't).

This is also why she needed Shepard's help. A lot of people talk about how she's her own person, with her own goals, and she doesn't need to rely on Shepard to get things done. Parts of this are true, however I am certain that without Shepard's intervention, Liara would never have succeeded in taking down the Broker and would have quite possibly been killed. Again, let me clarify myself before anyone takes offense.

Shepard and Liara compliment each other perfectly. Liara has a natural aptitude for research and information management. She's a competant fighter who can definately handle herself; but it's not her area of expertise, so to speak. Shepard is the opposite. She (my Shep's female) is most probably the biggest badass in the galaxy when it comes to fighting (as the PC usually is in these games). This is why Liara and Shepard depended on each other to kill the Shadow Broker. Liara may be a good fighter, but she was just one woman (Asari) with nothing but an information network to back her up. All the data in the galaxy doesn't help you when an assassin's got you targeted. Liara survived several attempts on her life, but it was probably only a matter of time before one of her assailants got lucky, or she slipped up. To go after the Broker, she needed backup from some of the toughrst SOB's in the galaxy; in this case Shepard and her team.

On the flip side, Shepard would never have been able to do it without Liara. Although Cerberus provides the vital peice of the puzzle intel-wise, you rely on Liara's contacts and natural intuition throughout the course of the mission. In this way, I'd argue that they're both 'in over their heads' (when is Shepard ever not in this situation?), and that individually they would have failed. What made the DLC so great was that Shepard and Liara relied on each other in equal measures to get the job done.

People say that Liara is independant; that she has her own goals unrelated to Shepard and that she doesn't need Shepard's help to achieve them. I say that's cr*p, to use a rather crude term. A relationship of equals doesn't mean two separate nations who happen to have feeling for each other. It means two people who are so deeply comitted that they know they can rely on the other for help and vice-versa. In such a commitment, every part of one persons life is going to affect the other's to some degree. You don't hold anything back...that's the definition of love, and you most certainly don't go 'screw what you think, this is what I want and I'm my own person'. It's about comprimise, and finding a solution that works for both people.

I hope that made sense

[jlb524]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Does it matter?

There's life to this old thread yet!

Even though I fear I will end up being tarred and feathered and carried out of the fandom on a rail. Still, it was worth it.

It's been a fun discussion, at least.  And, actually on topic!  :innocent:

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

That she was willing to skip killing the Shadow Broker in order to save Feron was something I loved.

How do you figure that?  It was never made clear that she wouldn't also kill the Shadow Broker after rescuing Feron.

She just mentions that the mission is now a rescue mission, but I don't think that means it still isn't also one for revenge.

[Erinlana]

jlb524 wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Does it matter?

There's life to this old thread yet!




Even though I fear I will end up being tarred and feathered and carried out of the fandom on a rail. Still, it was worth it.

It's been a fun discussion, at least.  And, actually on topic!  :innocent:

Question 

Do you still run  your Liara group Disscusion  ?

[tmk]

Erinlana wrote...
Question 

Do you still run  your Liara group Disscusion  ?

Yep, she does! Hi Erin btw 

[adneate]

TMA LIVE wrote...
Saving a life matter more then taking a life as the end goal. That's what I liked.

But you already said her attachement to that life doesn't make any sense. So why is it better to save someone who's relationship to you is nonsensical rather than seek vengence for your own reasons that do in fact make sense?

The Shadow Broker is in league with the Collectors who are agents of the Reapers isn't trying to remove that individual more noble than trying to save someone who's relationship to you is nonsensical?

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

That she was willing to skip killing the Shadow Broker in order to save Feron was something I loved.

How do you figure that?  It was never made clear that she wouldn't also kill the Shadow Broker after rescuing Feron.

She just mentions that the mission is now a rescue mission, but I don't think that means it still isn't also one for revenge.

"I've spent two years plotting revenge. Now I can make it a rescue." "But for now on, things will be simple. Get Feron, Get out. And kill whoever tries to stop us." "That's it."

[jlb524]

CheesesackIII wrote...
*snip*

yes, that makes sense.  I never said that partners being 'equal' means 100% independence for both.  Of course they will rely on each other for some things.  I don't believe that Liara didn't need Shepard's help either, or vice versa.  But simply needing help from someone does not make one interdependent, weak-willed, meek, etc.  Those latter traits were the things I was arguing against.

Erinlana wrote...

Question [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Do you still run  your Liara group Disscusion  ?

Yes.

[tmk]

TMA LIVE wrote...
"I've spent two years plotting revenge. Now I can make it a rescue." "But for now on, things will be simple. Get Feron, Get out. And kill whoever tries to stop us." "That's it."

Well, she knows quite well that Shadow Broker will try to stop them, so... 

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

"I've spent two years plotting revenge. Now I can make it a rescue." "But for now on, things will be simple. Get Feron, Get out. And kill whoever tries to stop us." "That's it."

Yeah, that's what she says, but that contradicts other things she said earlier.  Plus, again, you are simplifying Liara's motivations to a binary...I don't think it's that simple...people's motives are complex and involve many different desires mixing together.

Also, IIRC, she does, in fact, willingly kill the Shadow Broker.  This involved no attempts at a diplomatic solution...she pulled a gun on him as soon as she walked in the door.

[TMA LIVE]

adneate wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
Saving a life matter more then taking a life as the end goal. That's what I liked.

But you already said her attachement to that life doesn't make any sense. So why is it better to save someone who's relationship to you is nonsensical rather than seek vengence for your own reasons that do in fact make sense?

The Shadow Broker is in league with the Collectors who are agents of the Reapers isn't trying to remove that individual more noble than trying to save someone who's relationship to you is nonsensical?

Saving Feron because she owes him her life, and that mattering more, is what I liked. Not trying to kill the Shadow Broker, because Liara got Feron captured or killed, or because he's "maybe" doing more deals with Collectors beside trying to sell Shepard, as the reason he should "PAY!" (though we learn he is doing more deals, but we learn this later). I believe she was willing to throw that away to save Feron. That's just what I believe.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 21 octobre 2010 - 11:53 .

[Erinlana]

hai tmk , wow I need to play me2 again , I have lost track of so much since I left.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

"I've spent two years plotting revenge. Now I can make it a rescue." "But for now on, things will be simple. Get Feron, Get out. And kill whoever tries to stop us." "That's it."

Yeah, that's what she says, but that contradicts other things she said earlier.  Plus, again, you are simplifying Liara's motivations to a binary...I don't think it's that simple...people's motives are complex and involve many different desires mixing together.

Also, IIRC, she does, in fact, willingly kill the Shadow Broker.  This involved no attempts at a diplomatic solution...she pulled a gun on him as soon as she walked in the door.

You could ask for a diplomatic solution I believe. Shepard can tell the Shadow Broker to release Feron or else.

[only1sgop]

adneate wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Getting people killed, including that guy in the Trade Center, plus becoming an Information Broker, and doing jobs where the bodies still smell, for one man she knew for a day (and also beat the crap out of) is insane. That's small reward, big price (though getting the Shadow Broker base makes that BIG, BIG REWARD!). But I love her for it, even if it is insane. It's better then all that for petty revenge. Knowing that, and that she was willing to throw revenge away to save Feron, was what I liked. 

How is it better than petty revenge though, aren't both equally insane? You've said she's insane for going after Feron but casting aside revenge makes it okay. I can't seem to follow the jump in logic here, especially since at the end you still kill the shadow broker so technically she got revenge. In fact she got revenge before knowing that Feron wouldn't be insta-fried by the chair when the Shadow Broker died. So did she really cast revenge aside or was there just a minor change in priority?

Good Question! I wish I could come up with a good answer! I still think Liara is a little young and had alienated feelings how she handle the whole saving Feron rescue mission & feelings toward Shepard. The whole situation was super unusual for her. If it was me, I might have broken down when I saw Fem Shepard again for the first time.

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

You could ask for a diplomatic solution I believe. Shepard can tell the Shadow Broker to release Feron or else.

Shepard =/= Liara

[tmk]

only1sgop wrote...
Good Question! I wish I could come up with a good answer! I still think Liara is a little young and had alienated feelings how she handle the whole saving Feron rescue mission & feelings toward Shepard. The whole situation was super unusual for her. If it was me, I might have broken down when I saw Fem Shepard again for the first time.

She almost did. She couldn't just totally lose herself in the middle of a trade center, but the way she said "Shepard!" when she first saw her was about as close as you could reasonably expect. And I think she handled the whole saving Feron quite well considering all the circumstances...

[Nodarius]

tmk wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
"I've spent two years plotting revenge. Now I can make it a rescue." "But for now on, things will be simple. Get Feron, Get out. And kill whoever tries to stop us." "That's it."

Well, she knows quite well that Shadow Broker will try to stop them, so... 

Yes, but it's a question of priorities, there were no way of knowing whether he would try to stop them personally or not. So, it became "get out once we got Feron" instead of "lets look for SB and be done with him anyway".

On the whole it seems plausible that one tries to become rather "hardened" after a psychological trauma and then tries to defend that protective shell at least out of a reflex. There was a comment about Liara protecting her broken heart, which also fits the picture, it would appear.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

You could ask for a diplomatic solution I believe. Shepard can tell the Shadow Broker to release Feron or else.

Shepard =/= Liara

I don't see Liara saying "LET'S KILL HIM! WHY ARE WE TALKING?" lol

[tmk]

Nodarius wrote...
Yes, but it's a question of priorities, there were no way of knowing whether he would try to stop them personally or not. So, it became "get out once we got Feron" instead of "lets look for SB and be done with him anyway".

If I recall correctly, the Cerberus data was technically about Feron in the first place. If there was no guarantee they would actually find the Shadow Broker, then it would make sense to get out as soon as they recover Feron, and possibly come back to fight SB himself some other day, rather than find Feron only to get him killed in trying to find the SB as well. It doesn't mean she gave up all thoughts of killing Shadow Broker, but this particular operation was first and foremost about rescuing Feron. Killing the SB could be slightly postponed in favor of that.

[Nodarius]

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

"I've spent two years plotting revenge. Now I can make it a rescue." "But for now on, things will be simple. Get Feron, Get out. And kill whoever tries to stop us." "That's it."

Yeah, that's what she says, but that contradicts other things she said earlier.  Plus, again, you are simplifying Liara's motivations to a binary...I don't think it's that simple...people's motives are complex and involve many different desires mixing together.

Also, IIRC, she does, in fact, willingly kill the Shadow Broker.  This involved no attempts at a diplomatic solution...she pulled a gun on him as soon as she walked in the door.

You could ask for a diplomatic solution I believe. Shepard can tell the Shadow Broker to release Feron or else.

There is an option to say, if I recall correctly, "Be smart. Let us walk away with Feron". Strangly enough, SB disagrees, saying something like "you won't be walking away at all"