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[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

You could ask for a diplomatic solution I believe. Shepard can tell the Shadow Broker to release Feron or else.

Shepard =/= Liara

I don't see Liara saying "LET'S KILL HIM! WHY ARE WE TALKING?" lol

Does everything have to be made so obvious?

[Nodarius]

tmk wrote...

Nodarius wrote...
Yes, but it's a question of priorities, there were no way of knowing whether he would try to stop them personally or not. So, it became "get out once we got Feron" instead of "lets look for SB and be done with him anyway".

If I recall correctly, the Cerberus data was technically about Feron in the first place. If there was no guarantee they would actually find the Shadow Broker, then it would make sense to get out as soon as they recover Feron, and possibly come back to fight SB himself some other day, rather than find Feron only to get him killed in trying to find the SB as well. It doesn't mean she gave up all thoughts of killing Shadow Broker, but this particular operation was first and foremost about rescuing Feron. Killing the SB could be slightly postponed in favor of that.

Yes, some intercepted transmission, which implied that Feron is still alive, I believe

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

You could ask for a diplomatic solution I believe. Shepard can tell the Shadow Broker to release Feron or else.

Shepard =/= Liara

I don't see Liara saying "LET'S KILL HIM! WHY ARE WE TALKING?" lol

Does everything have to be made so obvious?

Look, if you want to believe killing the Shadow Broker was more important then saving Feron then that's what you want to believe. Or if you believe after saving Feron they were going to hunt down and execute the Shadow Broker out of petty revenge, even if he left his base, then believe that. I believe something else, and I have reasons for what I believe. If they did hunt down the Shadow Broker, it would only be because he'd be hunting them till they get to him first. Not out of stupid revenge. 

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 22 octobre 2010 - 12:11 .

[pf17456]

Nodarius wrote...

tmk wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
"I've spent two years plotting revenge. Now I can make it a rescue." "But for now on, things will be simple. Get Feron, Get out. And kill whoever tries to stop us." "That's it."

Well, she knows quite well that Shadow Broker will try to stop them, so... 

Yes, but it's a question of priorities, there were no way of knowing whether he would try to stop them personally or not. So, it became "get out once we got Feron" instead of "lets look for SB and be done with him anyway".

On the whole it seems plausible that one tries to become rather "hardened" after a psychological trauma and then tries to defend that protective shell at least out of a reflex. There was a comment about Liara protecting her broken heart, which also fits the picture, it would appear.

People often become 'task oriented' when faced with a devistating loss. It's not obsessive or insane nor does it mean the person has become 'hardened' , a word commonly used to describe Liara's behavior.
Doesn't it become clear when Liara's tears begin to flow that all the while she's simply protecting her heart ?
" I've spent two years mourning you so if we're going to try this I need to know you're always coming back "

Modifié par pf17456, 22 octobre 2010 - 12:19 .

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Look, if you want to believe killing the Shadow Broker was more important then saving Feron then that's what you want to believe. Or if you believe after saving Feron they were going to hunt down and execute the Shadow Broker out of petty revenge, even if he left his base, then believe that. I believe something else, and I have reasons for what I believe. If they did hunt down the Shadow Broker, it would only be because he'd be hunting them till they get to him first. Not out of stupid revenge. 

I never said that I believe that...I do think that saving Feron was more important to her.  I'm arguing that she also retained motivations for revenge...this is what I believe.  It seems you think her motives were always either one or the other, 'KILL KILL KILL' then 'Need to save Feron!' and changed at the flip of a switch.  I think they are both, amongst other things, but saving Feron ultimately was the most important one.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Look, if you want to believe killing the Shadow Broker was more important then saving Feron then that's what you want to believe. Or if you believe after saving Feron they were going to hunt down and execute the Shadow Broker out of petty revenge, even if he left his base, then believe that. I believe something else, and I have reasons for what I believe. If they did hunt down the Shadow Broker, it would only be because he'd be hunting them till they get to him first. Not out of stupid revenge. 

I never said that I believe that...I do think that saving Feron was more important to her.  I'm arguing that she also retained motivations for revenge...this is what I believe.  It seems you think her motives were always either one or the other, 'KILL KILL KILL' then 'Need to save Feron!' and changed at the flip of a switch.  I think they are both, amongst other things, but saving Feron ultimately was the most important one.

And Feron being more important is what I liked. I think in ME2 they were the same, because she had nothing else. She didn't even know he was still alive. But once she learned he was still alive, that's when she wanted to hurry. Willing to kill those Shadow Broker agents in ME2 I've always thought was unnecessary, but she did it because she was trying to hurry. It's been 2 years, and every day meant less time for him to live, or another day for him to be tortured. She did it because she needed to get it done now, or else she might be too late. And if she was already to late, she needed to kill the Shadow Broker to make up for getting Feron captured and killed. And for that, she had to make herself hate him, and built that for 2 years.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 22 octobre 2010 - 12:27 .

[tmk]

TMA LIVE wrote...
Look, if you want to believe killing the Shadow Broker was more important then saving Feron then that's what you want to believe. Or if you believe after saving Feron they were going to hunt down and execute the Shadow Broker out of petty revenge, even if he left his base, then believe that. I believe something else, and I have reasons for what I believe. If they did hunt down the Shadow Broker, it would only be because he'd be hunting them till they get to him first. Not out of stupid revenge. 

There was never a direct choice between saving Feron and killing the Shadow Broker (for which I'm, frankly, thankful, cause I'm a bit sick of those "dramatic moral choices" on every corner). Then there's an issue of him working with the Collectors (though that point is a bit moot if you do LotSB after the SM). Then there's an issue of blowing up three floors of civilians to get to one person. Then we don't know how much more Liara has learned about the Shadow Broker during those two years. Yea, it sounds nice and cool that he has been all neutral and kept balance in the galaxy, always selling information to the highest bidder. On the other hand there's, say, Thane's wife...

As I said, saving Feron was the short-term goal, but it was unclear how much precedence it had if weighted directly against shutting down the Shadow Broker. But then, Mass Effect story is written in such a way as to leave quite some room for speculation, which on one hand allows it to accommodate wide audience, and on the other hand makes arguments like this kinda moot.

[TMA LIVE]

tmk wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
Look, if you want to believe killing the Shadow Broker was more important then saving Feron then that's what you want to believe. Or if you believe after saving Feron they were going to hunt down and execute the Shadow Broker out of petty revenge, even if he left his base, then believe that. I believe something else, and I have reasons for what I believe. If they did hunt down the Shadow Broker, it would only be because he'd be hunting them till they get to him first. Not out of stupid revenge. 

There was never a direct choice between saving Feron and killing the Shadow Broker (for which I'm, frankly, thankful, cause I'm a bit sick of those "dramatic moral choices" on every corner). Then there's an issue of him working with the Collectors (though that point is a bit moot if you do LotSB after the SM). Then there's an issue of blowing up three floors of civilians to get to one person. Then we don't know how much more Liara has learned about the Shadow Broker during those two years. Yea, it sounds nice and cool that he has been all neutral and kept balance in the galaxy, always selling information to the highest bidder. On the other hand there's, say, Thane's wife...

Well, I could argue the Shadow Broker did that because he was trying to survive, since his location was compromised. I can understand why he did it (though I don't like him for it. I can say the same about Vasir, though I like her a lot more oddly). 

[tmk]

He didn't seem to even stop and try to think of some other way to do it. Ironically, as much as it was overkill, it didn't actually kill neither Liara nor Sekat.



Sure I can understand why he did that. I can understand why Saren acted the way he did too. Doesn't mean you should just give up and let him do whatever the hell he's doing.

[Nodarius]

tmk wrote...

He didn't seem to even stop and try to think of some other way to do it. Ironically, as much as it was overkill, it didn't actually kill neither Liara nor Sekat.

There were no time to stop and think lest Liara gets the data from Sekat and runs away with it

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

And Feron being more important is what I liked. I think in ME2 they were the same, because she had nothing else. She didn't even know he was still alive. But once she learned he was still alive, that's when she wanted to hurry. Willing to kill those Shadow Broker agents in ME2 I've always thought was unnecessary, but she did it because she was trying to hurry. It's been 2 years, and every day meant less time for him to live, or another day for him to be tortured. She did it because she needed to get it done now, or else she might be too late. And if she was already to late, she needed to kill the Shadow Broker to make up for getting Feron captured and killed. And for that, she had to make herself hate him, and built that for 2 years.

OK, that's fine...it seemed like you were hard set against Feron not being a motivation before LotSB.  I don't agree with that.

Still, I also think taking down the Shadow Broker is also a noble goal, as he was corrupt.

[tmk]

Nodarius wrote...

tmk wrote...
He didn't seem to even stop and try to think of some other way to do it. Ironically, as much as it was overkill, it didn't actually kill neither Liara nor Sekat.

There were no time to stop and think lest Liara gets the data from Sekat and runs away with it

You realize that planting bombs all over three floors is probably going to take longer than finding whoever you're trying to kill and just shooting him (which, again, is what happened in the end anyways)? TSB had a whole platoon of mercs in there already. It almost seems like the explosion was there just to slightly up the chances.

Modifié par tmk, 22 octobre 2010 - 01:08 .

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

And Feron being more important is what I liked. I think in ME2 they were the same, because she had nothing else. She didn't even know he was still alive. But once she learned he was still alive, that's when she wanted to hurry. Willing to kill those Shadow Broker agents in ME2 I've always thought was unnecessary, but she did it because she was trying to hurry. It's been 2 years, and every day meant less time for him to live, or another day for him to be tortured. She did it because she needed to get it done now, or else she might be too late. And if she was already to late, she needed to kill the Shadow Broker to make up for getting Feron captured and killed. And for that, she had to make herself hate him, and built that for 2 years.

OK, that's fine...it seemed like you were hard set against Feron not being a motivation before LotSB.  I don't agree with that.

Still, I also think taking down the Shadow Broker is also a noble goal, as he was corrupt.

Well, after they turned the Shadow Broker into an actual monster who was trying to kill Tali, tortured Feron while giving him a suit, blew up a building, sold people to the Collectors, killed his original boss, and wouldn't surrender and planned on killing you anyways, they kind of overkill it when justifying why he should die in Lair of the Shadow Broker.

But most of this we know now. We didn't know then. We just knew he either killed or imprison Feron, tried to sell Shepard's body, may have done more deals with the Collectors, and that's it.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 22 octobre 2010 - 01:13 .

[TMA LIVE]

tmk wrote...

Nodarius wrote...

tmk wrote...
He didn't seem to even stop and try to think of some other way to do it. Ironically, as much as it was overkill, it didn't actually kill neither Liara nor Sekat.

There were no time to stop and think lest Liara gets the data from Sekat and runs away with it

You realize that planting bombs all over three floors is probably going to take longer than finding whoever you're trying to kill and just shooting him (which, again, is what happened in the end anyways)? TSB had a whole platoon of mercs in there already. It almost seems like the explosion was there just to slightly up the chances.

I do wonder how they did all that seconds after Vasir found out. Also, how did she set this up with Shepard in the car with her???

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Well, after they turned the Shadow Broker into an actual monster who was trying to kill Tali, tortured Feron while giving him a suit, blew up a building, sold people to the Collectors, killed his original boss, and wouldn't surrender and planned on killing you anyways, they kind of overkill it when justifying why he should die in Lair of the Shadow Broker.

But most of this we know now. We didn't know then. We just knew he either killed or imprison Feron, tried to sell Shepard's body, may have done more deals with the Collectors, and that's it.

How did they turn him into a monster?  He was an unknown in ME1.  Anything they did with him is valid and doesn't contradict our previous knowledge of him (which was extrememly small). 

The Shadow Broker as an ideal, as a 'position' is pretty neutral, but the individuals that fill it can bring whatever morals they have to the table.  The yahg was not a nice dude...was selfish and greedy....willing to throw a war hero under the bus to save his own hide.  Liara will hopefully do something better with the position.

[tmk]

TMA LIVE wrote...
I do wonder how they did all that seconds after Vasir found out. Also, how did she set this up with Shepard in the car with her???

Frankly, there comes a point when the more you think about this stuff, the less sense it makes. I assume Vasir had some sort of recording device on her, and TSB didn't need her to specifically tell him what to do because he deduced that from what he heard/saw.

Of course that makes Liara saying "he'll know about Vasir before long" make no sense, because he would have known right away. Oh well, the rules of dramatic scene writing.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Well, after they turned the Shadow Broker into an actual monster who was trying to kill Tali, tortured Feron while giving him a suit, blew up a building, sold people to the Collectors, killed his original boss, and wouldn't surrender and planned on killing you anyways, they kind of overkill it when justifying why he should die in Lair of the Shadow Broker.

But most of this we know now. We didn't know then. We just knew he either killed or imprison Feron, tried to sell Shepard's body, may have done more deals with the Collectors, and that's it.

How did they turn him into a monster?  He was an unknown in ME1.  Anything they did with him is valid and doesn't contradict our previous knowledge of him (which was extrememly small). 

The Shadow Broker as an ideal, as a 'position' is pretty neutral, but the individuals that fill it can bring whatever morals they have to the table.  The yahg was not a nice dude...was selfish and greedy....willing to throw a war hero under the bus to save his own hide.  Liara will hopefully do something better with the position.

She will.

But anyways, I'm just kind of wish he didn't turn into "just another bad guy. He had it coming. No regrets". He seemed more neutral, and didn't pick sides. I wish they focused on the fact that he was just trying to survive by working with the Collectors because it was the only way he knew how. Maybe they found him, and he was forced to work for them, or die. But no, he's just an bad ogre.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 22 octobre 2010 - 01:32 .

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

She will.

Then, it was worth it, right?

TMA LIVE wrote...
But anyways, I'm just kind of wish he didn't turn into "just another bad guy. He had it coming. No regrets". He seemed more neutral, and didn't pick sides. I wish they focused on the fact that he was just trying to survive by working with the Collectors because it was the only way he knew how. Maybe they found him, and he was forced to work for them, or die. But no, he's just an bad ogre.

They do this alot...like with the vorcha...just more canon fodder bad guys.  He was neutral in the sense that he was just looking out for his own hide, and wasn't out to necessarily harm anyone else.  Of course, this was at the expense of others (as it usually is), even the galaxy if need be.  I would rather have a Shadow Broker in place that is looking out for the best interest of the greater whole.

He didn't seem willing to give up the postition at all, or work with Shep/Liara.  Perhaps it could have been better/more interesting if he did, but they didn't go that route for some reason.

[jtav]

The second chapter of Persistence of Memory is up for those interested.

Summary: Liara has information critical to restoring Shepard. Miranda will do anything to get it. She'll even teach Liara how not to get killed. Facing her own past-and her attraction to Liara-was never part of the bargain. (Miranda/Liara)

Modifié par jtav, 22 octobre 2010 - 01:58 .

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

She will.

Then, it was worth it, right?

Of course. Unless something in ME3 says otherwise. But I think everything is going to be alright. Or better then usual.

[jlb524]

jtav wrote...

The second chapter of Persistence of Memory is up for those interested.

Summary: Liara has information critical to restoring Shepard. Miranda will do anything to get it. She'll even teach Liara how not to get killed. Facing her own past-and her attraction to Liara-was never part of the bargain. (Miranda/Liara)

I'm very interested.....I shall read it tomorrow and leave feedback.

Thanks, jtav!

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Of course. Unless something in ME3 says otherwise. But I think everything is going to be alright. Or better then usual.

Well, I hope it doesn't....I would hate it if they pulled the cliche 'Liara becomes corrupted with power' crap.

I think they won't, and things will be good. 

I don't think all Shadow Broker's necessarily become 'bad' or 'evil and corrupt', and I think Liara's heart is in the right place, so I have no worries.

[tmk]

nm

Modifié par tmk, 22 octobre 2010 - 02:37 .

[drwells123]

fortunesque wrote...

Really? Is this really the elitist attitude of ME1 Liara fans? I certainly hope not. 

So you dislike me, along with a bunch of people who didn't particularly care for Liara in ME1 for one reason or another that ended up liking her in ME2, most notably from her LotSB dlc. 

And if someone comes back to Liara because of the dlc, then shouldn't people be glad that they finally get to share with others now much they like her?

I can't speak for anyone else here but I don't judge anyone by when or under what circumstances they saw the light

I played ME2 first and didn't have the experience of knowing Liara from ME1 and then seeing her as being derailed. It sounds like it was a long and seemingly unheeded period for the people who did, and it caused some resentment toward other fans whom they saw as not sticking around to fight the good fight. I'm very glad there are people who are strongly supportive of her and always have been - I assume they're among the people BioWare listened to when it created LotSB, which is what sold me on her character - but I'd hate to see some kind of schism caused over how consistently dedicated people have been.

Just my $.02 and no intention of rubbing anyone's rhubarb here.

[jlb524]

The worry is that we will only be 'sharing with others how much we like Liara' for a time, before they get fed up with her again for some reason and ditch her again in ME3.



If that's 'elitist', well, then I'm elitist.



But, yes, the fans that did stick with her did influence BW in the making of LotSB, so take that as you will.