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[onelifecrisis]

Lizardviking wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...
Actually I liked the picture scene much better with LotSB completed. There's no dialogue in that scene, so I think it's quite open to interpretation.

May I ask why? Not that I have a problem with it, I would just like to know your reason.

Certainly

If Shepard has had - or even just arranged - the date with Liara, then him looking at the picture before hitting the relay can be interpreted as him strengthening his resolve to come back and see her again. This is uplifting.

If LotSB has not yet been done then Shepard staring at the photo is, to me, a guy struggling with a broken heart or, worse, a guy in denial (Liara at this point has shown zero interest in him). This is depressing.

Why is why I prefer LOTSB post-suicide mission. ME2 is the second the chapter. And the second chapter is usually the darkest one. With the characters at their lowest point and nothing is going smooth, resulting in the possiblility that the story's romance sub-plot might have a tragic ending.

Yeah, second chapters should be dark. A hero must overcome despair. In ME1 (taken as a standalone game) this happens when the Normandy is grounded. And how does Shepard overcome that despair? With the help and support of his LI! I'm not attacking your POV here, but hear me out.

Heroes (or well written heroes at least) must be shown to be fallible, to need support once in a while, otherwise they are not human. This support typically comes from a love interest, though it can come from any other person really. If Shepard receives no such support in ME2 - the dark chapter - and succeeds regardless, then he comes off as superhuman, able to weather any storm without help or encouragement. This makes him rather unrelatable IMO.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...
Actually I liked the picture scene much better with LotSB completed. There's no dialogue in that scene, so I think it's quite open to interpretation.

May I ask why? Not that I have a problem with it, I would just like to know your reason.

Certainly

If Shepard has had - or even just arranged - the date with Liara, then him looking at the picture before hitting the relay can be interpreted as him strengthening his resolve to come back and see her again. This is uplifting.

If LotSB has not yet been done then Shepard staring at the photo is, to me, a guy struggling with a broken heart or, worse, a guy in denial (Liara at this point has shown zero interest in him). This is depressing.

Why is why I prefer LOTSB post-suicide mission. ME2 is the second the chapter. And the second chapter is usually the darkest one. With the characters at their lowest point and nothing is going smooth, resulting in the possiblility that the story's romance sub-plot might have a tragic ending.

Yeah, second chapters should be dark. A hero must overcome despair. In ME1 (taken as a standalone game) this happens when the Normandy is grounded. And how does Shepard overcome that despair? With the help and support of his LI! I'm not attacking your POV here, but hear me out.

Heroes (or well written heroes at least) must be shown to be fallible, to need support once in a while, otherwise they are not human. This support typically comes from a love interest, though it can come from any other person really. If Shepard receives no such support in ME2 - the dark chapter - and succeeds regardless, then he comes off as superhuman, able to weather any storm without help or encouragement. This makes him rather unrelatable IMO.

Sure Shepard succeds... Against the Collectors.

But on a personal level? He's pretty much broken and defeated on that field. Try lose someone on the suicide mission and pick specific dialog options during the cabin reunion scene, and you will see what I mean. Shepard isn't weathering the storm and coming out fine, he's clearly suffering.

[onelifecrisis]

Lizardviking wrote...

Sure Shepard succeds... Against the Collectors.

But on a personal level? He's pretty much broken and defeated on that field.

If he succeeded despite being broken then why does it matter that he was broken? What difference did it make? More relevant to this thread: what difference does Liara make?

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 24 novembre 2010 - 04:02 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Sure Shepard succeds... Against the Collectors.

But on a personal level? He's pretty much broken and defeated on that field.

If he succeeded despite being broken then why does it matter that he was broken? What difference did it make? More relevant to this thread: what difference does Liara make?

Shepard (atleast mine) wasn't completely alone. He had two good friends with him, Garrus and Tali. And made a few more with Samara and Miranda.

I always imagined that they were one making him able to get through the entire ordeal.

I know it isn't shown in the game, and ME2-maingame Shepard's complete lack of humanity is also one of my criticism.

[onelifecrisis]

Lizardviking wrote...

Shepard (atleast mine) wasn't completely alone. He had two good friends with him, Garrus and Tali. And made a few more with Samara and Miranda.

I always imagined that they were one making him able to get through the entire ordeal.

I know it isn't shown in the game, and ME2-maingame Shepard's complete lack of humanity is also one of my criticism.

Fair point. At least having them on board lets you imagine that. This was (and still is) a gripe I have with Liara being the SB - I can't do that same imagining! Dagnammit.

[Nodarius]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

asari should keep the population stable; I can't imagine the average being anywhere near two children per asari (population would double every generation...)

Well, considering that maiden years are usually spent as mercenaries...

onelifecrisis wrote...
But for them a generation is a thousand years. No biggy.

It seems to be a wrong assumption. Usualy a generation is considered to be the number of time units required for females to mature enough to have children. it is not an academic definition, obviously, but I hope the meaning is clear. So, if maiden period is considered to last roughly three centuries, then an asari generation is about three or four hundreds of years as well. That assuming that asari start to reproduce more or less shortly after they enter matron stage, of course. BTW, the same formula apllies to human generation -- it is roughly 20 years as women have children at about that age. On average.

I am no sociologist, though, correct me if I am wrong, please.

[onelifecrisis]

Nodarius wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

asari should keep the population stable; I can't imagine the average being anywhere near two children per asari (population would double every generation...)

Well, considering that maiden years are usually spent as mercenaries...

onelifecrisis wrote...
But for them a generation is a thousand years. No biggy.

It seems to be a wrong assumption. Usualy a generation is considered to be the number of time units required for females to mature enough to have children. it is not an academic definition, obviously, but I hope the meaning is clear. So, if maiden period is considered to last roughly three centuries, then an asari generation is about three or four hundreds of years as well. That assuming that asari start to reproduce more or less shortly after they enter matron stage, of course. BTW, the same formula apllies to human generation -- it is roughly 20 years as women have children at about that age. On average.

I am no sociologist, though, correct me if I am wrong, please.

Okay, so 300 years. But at 2 kids each that would mean their population would double every 300 years, which is a lot slower than our own population has grown over the centuries.

[AlexMBrennan]

Well, considering that maiden years are usually spent as mercenaries...

I assumed that they normally suffer fewer casualties, i.e. when not fighting Shepard & friends.

[danteliveson]

Is there anyway to break the romance with Liara without romancing someone else??? I went through ME1 without romancing anyone and rejected to sleep with Liara, but still ended up with her.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

danteliveson wrote...

Is there anyway to break the romance with Liara without romancing someone else??? I went through ME1 without romancing anyone and rejected to sleep with Liara, but still ended up with her.

Just tell her to go away during the locker scene (ME1) or break up with her after you completed LOTSB.

And no offence. But how the hell did you manage to get ninja romanced with Liara? There's a pretty clear "Yes/No" moment.

[danteliveson]

Lizardviking wrote...

danteliveson wrote...

Is there anyway to break the romance with Liara without romancing someone else??? I went through ME1 without romancing anyone and rejected to sleep with Liara, but still ended up with her.

Just tell her to go away during the locker scene (ME1) or break up with her after you completed LOTSB.

And no offence. But how the hell did you manage to get ninja romanced with Liara? There's a pretty clear "Yes/No" moment.

I rejected her both times but still ended up being the romance option.

Modifié par danteliveson, 24 novembre 2010 - 07:22 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

danteliveson wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

danteliveson wrote...

Is there anyway to break the romance with Liara without romancing someone else??? I went through ME1 without romancing anyone and rejected to sleep with Liara, but still ended up with her.

Just tell her to go away during the locker scene (ME1) or break up with her after you completed LOTSB.

And no offence. But how the hell did you manage to get ninja romanced with Liara? There's a pretty clear "Yes/No" moment.

I rejected her both times but still ended up being the romance option.

Sounds like your import file is bugged then.

[danteliveson]

DAMN!!

[Nodarius]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Well, considering that maiden years are usually spent as mercenaries...

I assumed that they normally suffer fewer casualties, i.e. when not fighting Shepard & friends.

Were they figthing Shepard&Co all the time, there would hardly be any asari left, it would seem
More to the point, I don't think your assumption is correct, because a) there will be enough casualties as there would be asari mercenaries on all sides (talking about normal mercenary activities), presumably there are accidents of all kinds, which could disable or kill, c) we do not know how many children an average asari could phisiologically have, and d) if each and every one of them is able and wants to have some.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

The talk about the picture scene made me wonder how other people view it.

Anyone willing to share their thoughts?

[Nerdage]

Lizardviking wrote...

The talk about the picture scene made me wonder how other people view it.

Anyone willing to share their thoughts?

Well with regards to LotSB, my last playthrough had the picture scene in between storming the broker's base and the meeting in Shepard's cabin (which I only did after the suicide mission). The way I saw it, helping Liara was Shepard's 'loyalty mission' thing, something that had to be cleared up before she could focus on the mission, but reuniting and talking about the relationship was something that had to come after the collectors were dealt with (by that point everyone else's loyalty missions were done and the IFF mission was next, which was pretty dangerous).

Though when the picture scene came up I wondered if Shepard would be any more focused for having helped Liara if the relationship was still up in the air.

[Auzden]

i just wanna say that i liara... (and miranda and tali)...... quite the girl..... er alien....

[TheNexus]

I miss ME1 Liara

[Nerdage]

TheNexus wrote...

I miss ME1 Liara

For what it's worth, I imagine that ME3 Liara (here's to hoping!) will be more like she was in ME1 than in main-game ME2, that is, she'll probably be as she was at the end of LotSB. Which would be good, surely?

[TheNexus]

nerdage wrote...

TheNexus wrote...

I miss ME1 Liara

For what it's worth, I imagine that ME3 Liara (here's to hoping!) will be more like she was in ME1 than in main-game ME2, that is, she'll probably be as she was at the end of LotSB. Which would be good, surely?

Yeah after LotSB she was more like ME1, but can you imagine how much pressure being the Shadow Broker is going to be? She may get stressed out again.

[bjdbwea]

Lizardviking wrote...

The talk about the picture scene made me wonder how other people view it.

Anyone willing to share their thoughts?

Until LotSB, the picture scene was on top of the short list of scenes in ME 2 that I actually really liked. Of course I didn't like the fact that the writers artificially prevented Shepard from, you know, just travelling to Illium and saying goodbye to Liara in person. Or at least calling her or writing an email. And of course I also didn't like the fact that instead of a "rocky" second chapter to the romance, there was virtually no second chapter at all.

But the scene itself is quite beautiful. It's not as great as the locker scene for example, but I would say that the picture scene alone feels more romantic and real than any of the actual romances and love scenes in the main game of ME 2.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 25 novembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

bjdbwea wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

The talk about the picture scene made me wonder how other people view it.

Anyone willing to share their thoughts?

Until LotSB, the picture scene was on top of the short list of scenes in ME 2 that I actually really liked. Of course I didn't like the fact that the writers artificially prevented Shepard from, you know, just travelling to Illium and saying goodbye to Liara in person. And of course I also didn't like the fact that instead of a "rocky" second chapter to the romance, there was virtually no second chapter at all.

But the scene itself is quite beautiful. It's not nearly as great as the locker scene for example, but I would say that the picture scene alone feels more romantic and real than any of the actual romances and love scenes in the main game of ME 2.

It was certainly one of the more well done scenes from ME2-maingame and another reason why ME1 LI's>ME2 LI's.

But perhaps I worded my question wrong. I meant it more on what you want the scene to mean.

Do you like Onelifecrisis want it to be a more positive scene, with Shepard reminding himself whats waiting for him to return. Or do you see it to more like I do. A Shepard struggleing with a slightly broken heart, wondering if there's anything between them.

Or perhaps something completly else?

Modifié par Lizardviking, 25 novembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[bjdbwea]

The Shepard in the main game of ME 2 is often not my Shepard from ME 1. There's simply no way that my Shepard would have acted that way when meeting Liara again, or at least not have tried to properly talk with her later. Therefore my Shepard would not have been wondering about the relationship, because it would have been clear either way. And in my own Mass Effect story canon, Shepard and Liara belong together.

Therefore I for one always had to assume that they'd have talked about everything before Shepard left for the final mission, even if the game didn't show it. And therefore I always saw the picture scene as primarily Shepard gathering strength for a difficult task.

But the scene of course would also make sense as part of a "rocky" chapter of the relationship, if the writers had actually implemented something like that. And now with LotSB, it probably makes more sense to interpret it like that, even though the actual content is still missing from the main game.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 25 novembre 2010 - 09:03 .

[Nerdage]

TheNexus wrote...

Yeah after LotSB she was more like ME1, but can you imagine how much pressure being the Shadow Broker is going to be? She may get stressed out again.

Well she really has a mind for data, which seems to be what being the shadow broker is largely about, that and deligating subordinates. It'll almost certainly will be stressful, but moreso than being an independant information broker hunting the shadow broker? Plus that business with Feron is dealt with, she should be more calm than before LotSB.

[Nerdage]

Also, the my last playthrough the other day was the first time I waited until the start of LotSB to have Liara explain what happened with Cerberus, I'd recommend it. The way she just starts explaining it all and Shepard's just standing around going "Wait.. What?", much more fun.

Modifié par nerdage, 25 novembre 2010 - 09:16 .