50907 replies to this topic

[Corti78]

And so a new Liara thread is born. Woo really went to town on all the relationship threads what time I was gone.

Ah well I will continue to show my support for Liara regardless of how many threads we will have to make.

[Taritu]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Speculation: the Asari feel like their race is stagnant.
Liara is one of their most accomplished daughters. By the end of ME3, Shepard will be pretty much the most accomplished being in the galaxy. So they want lots of offspring.
A bonus is that the pro-human groups then can get really angry at Shepard for turning his/her back on the human race. Then the more reasonable people can say "Well, Shepard did save all life in the galaxy, so you can't really claim he/she didn't do enough..."

Hahaha.  I was thinking what a slap in the face to the "pro-humans" it would be for all of Shepard's kids to be Asari.  Of course, for a paragon "galactic community" Shepard, it makes total sense.

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...


Certainly, it should play out differently if Shepard was faithful, but I don't think it should preclude a reunion. I'd argue that it makes sense for a Shepard that did not romance Liara in ME1 to start a romance with her in ME3 (if there is no other romance active), as she clearly cares deeply about Shepard.

Agreed, if you didn't romance her in 1 she should be available in 3 but with a lesser ending than someone who had Liara for all 3.  Someone who cheated in 2 should be stuck with that new person or another new romance that is not the ME1 romance.

Cheaters made their bed, now lay in it.

[yeldarbnotned]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...


Certainly, it should play out differently if Shepard was faithful, but I don't think it should preclude a reunion. I'd argue that it makes sense for a Shepard that did not romance Liara in ME1 to start a romance with her in ME3 (if there is no other romance active), as she clearly cares deeply about Shepard.

Agreed, if you didn't romance her in 1 she should be available in 3 but with a lesser ending than someone who had Liara for all 3.  Someone who cheated in 2 should be stuck with that new person or another new romance that is not the ME1 romance.

Cheaters made their bed, now lay in it.

Agreed!  I think Liara clearly loves Shepard, even if Shepard has not YET shown a love for her.

[JPfanner]

General Stubbs wrote...



I guess the romantic ending would need to be permanent in the sense of Shepard and Liara doing something to express their love as it is the conclusion to the game and hopefully will solve the relationship problem in some type of DLC. Marriage could be a option if we were faithful, perhaps? (Do Asari even have a type of marriage)?

Yes, that's the bondmate that you hear some of the asari talking about. The asari that lost the pendant, the bartender, and the Memories of Illium asari being courted by the Krogan all talk about it some. So they seem to be pretty much like humans in that you have casual relationships or long term significant other relationships.



That'd be nice to have that for Shepard really. Quite frankly it was hard enough to leave Liara's office to go do less important stuff like stopping the Collectors this time around. I think Shepard deserves some snuggly time after saving all life in the galaxy multiple times and increasing the psychological well-being of half the population along the way.

[Nozybidaj]

Just a little something from the Devs dropped the ball thread:

morrie23 wrote...

Well it could of been much worse, there
are audio files that indicate that the Liara/SB mission was once much
bigger in ME2. Long story short, Shep seems to kill the SB, Liara gets
his data (and might of become the new SB) and still won't come with
Shep because she has 'too much reading to do'.

Looks like my guess that they are setting her up to be the next Shadow Broker wasn't that far off.  While they did say the romance would conclude in ME3 they never said happily.

I think there is A LOT more disappointment in store for Liara fans than they are willing to admit even if she is in ME3.  I just don't understand why the felt the need to take such a great and lovable character as the Liara from ME1 and completely break her down.  

[Eddie-Hawke]

Dropping in to show my support for the good Dr T'Soni

[Corti78]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Just a little something from the Devs dropped the ball thread:

morrie23 wrote...

Well it could of been much worse, there
are audio files that indicate that the Liara/SB mission was once much
bigger in ME2. Long story short, Shep seems to kill the SB, Liara gets
his data (and might of become the new SB) and still won't come with
Shep because she has 'too much reading to do'.

Looks like my guess that they are setting her up to be the next Shadow Broker wasn't that far off.  While they did say the romance would conclude in ME3 they never said happily.

I think there is A LOT more disappointment in store for Liara fans than they are willing to admit even if she is in ME3.  I just don't understand why the felt the need to take such a great and lovable character as the Liara from ME1 and completely break her down.  

Hopefully it wasn't cut just for future DLC purposes but to redo it. Though it seems Mac Walters is hell bent on destroying Liara's character and the Shepards that love her so at this point I can only fear for the worst.

[Nozybidaj]

Corti78 wrote...

Hopefully it wasn't cut just for future DLC purposes but to redo it. Though it seems Mac Walters is hell bent on destroying Liara's character and the Shepards that love her so at this point I can only fear for the worst.

Just going to say, agreed.  

I was going to say something else instead but it probably would have gotten me banned.

[morrie23]

Here are two pieces of cut Liara dialogue (found by jlb524):



'I found one interesting thing though. One of the Shadow Broker's top agents survived our attack. It's someone called 'The Observer'. Taking down the Observer will tie up most of the last loose ends the Shadow Broker left behind.'



'I don't even have access to all of it yet. I could use your help, hacking some of the security points around Illium. That might unlock new data.'



As you can see these were cut from the game and the ideas repurposed into what we see in ME2, BW probably decided that a large Liara/SB story didn't fit, so cut it and moved it in the comic and possible DLC. I don't think said DLC will play out as what is suggested in this cut dialogue, only time will tell.



See Ashley, Kaidan and Liara Fans Unite Here! for evidence if you're a member.

[MoSa09]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Just a little something from the Devs dropped the ball thread:

morrie23 wrote...

Well it could of been much worse, there
are audio files that indicate that the Liara/SB mission was once much
bigger in ME2. Long story short, Shep seems to kill the SB, Liara gets
his data (and might of become the new SB) and still won't come with
Shep because she has 'too much reading to do'.

Looks like my guess that they are setting her up to be the next Shadow Broker wasn't that far off.  While they did say the romance would conclude in ME3 they never said happily.

I think there is A LOT more disappointment in store for Liara fans than they are willing to admit even if she is in ME3.  I just don't understand why the felt the need to take such a great and lovable character as the Liara from ME1 and completely break her down.  

Actually, i don't see where you see they set her up as the next Shadow Broker. The possible fact that Liara can't join you cause of reading all of the secret information the Shadow Broker has gathered (about the Collector'S maybe) does not imply that imo.
What we have to accept that BioWare seems to have decided pretty early in the process of producing ME 2, maybe even during ME 1, that the surviving former squadmates won't join your team in Me 2.
Therefore, they had to come up with some reasons for their behaviour: some were good, some weren't. But we should not read and interpret too much into the reasons.
I'm sure they had some ideas with there story reasons, and i'm sure that Liaras information business will not simply be scraped and ignored in ME3, but we always have to keep in mind that foremost, all former squadmates reasons to not join you serve nothing but one purpose: and that is to give them a reason for refusing to join your team and be alive in ME 3 because BioWare wanted them so, and not cause their personal story demanded it.
After the suicide mission, the main reason why BioWare decided to keep them out of your team is gone, so there is absolutely no reason to believe that her story reason (they can't plainly tell you in-game: sorry, i'd like to be alive for the final story can they ) will remain unchanged after it has become useless.
SB is a mysterious, rather dark entitiy stealing and selling information and more to the highest bidder. The Liara in ME 3 might have an information background and more contacts than others, but she will not replace the SB, neither as an equally bad or dark one nor as Pragaon edition of an information broker. I'm willing to take a bet on this.

[Driveninhifi]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Just a little something from the Devs dropped the ball thread:

morrie23 wrote...

Well it could of been much worse, there
are audio files that indicate that the Liara/SB mission was once much
bigger in ME2. Long story short, Shep seems to kill the SB, Liara gets
his data (and might of become the new SB) and still won't come with
Shep because she has 'too much reading to do'.

Looks like my guess that they are setting her up to be the next Shadow Broker wasn't that far off.  While they did say the romance would conclude in ME3 they never said happily.

I think there is A LOT more disappointment in store for Liara fans than they are willing to admit even if she is in ME3.  I just don't understand why the felt the need to take such a great and lovable character as the Liara from ME1 and completely break her down.  

I noticed that in the TLK. She basically says that most of the Shadow Broker agents report to her now, whether they know it or not. Although I don't know if it implies Shep actually takes down the SB. There's also dialogue where she says she'll keep going through the information to find the SB, and that it may take years.

Even that doesn't make a lot of sense though - since the Reapers are coming Liara and Shep don't have years to sift through data. I'm not sure what the plan is, or if that's just leftover cruft.

But, yeah, like MoSa09 said: it doesn't make sense to keep her alive if she's not going to rejoin Shepard.

Edited by Driveninhifi, 18 February 2010 - 11:26 PM.

[Nozybidaj]

MoSa09 wrote...
we always have to keep in mind that foremost, all former squadmates reasons to not join you serve nothing but one purpose: and that is to give them a reason for refusing to join your team and be alive in ME 3

Not to be rude but that, and what Casey said, is all a load of horse****. 

They weren't in ME2 simply becaues BW didn't want them to be.  Simple as that. 

If they had wanted to continue these character's stories they would have been in ME2.  There is no good reason they couldn't have been included in the game aside from the simple fact that the devs DID NOT WANT THEM THERE.  It is just as easy to come up with excuses to include them as it is to exclude them, and that is all they are, excuses.  

Why they didn't want them there is the important question people should be asking themselves.

[Driveninhifi]

Ah, just looked at the post. Interesting. It does seem like it was cut/changed during development. I missed a bunch of that when I dumped the file out.



The way it's presented in that file doesn't really make it seem like she's being set up to be the next Shadow Broker. It makes it seem like she's staying behind for the express purpose of helping Shepard fight the Collectors by going through the data. One of the lines actually says that - she wants to find something that helps you in the coming battle. That's actually quite reasonable - if she did find a big weakness then it would be more helpful than having her on the Normandy.



I do think that she needs to rejoin Shepard - and I think it makes sense for it to happen sooner rather than later. Like I said before, they have lots of issues to work out together and I would think both of them would be eager to do so (depending on Shepard's reaction to her confession, of course).

[morrie23]

Driveninhifi wrote...

The way it's presented in that file doesn't really make it seem like she's being set up to be the next Shadow Broker. It makes it seem like she's staying behind for the express purpose of helping Shepard fight the Collectors by going through the data. One of the lines actually says that - she wants to find something that helps you in the coming battle. That's actually quite reasonable - if she did find a big weakness then it would be more helpful than having her on the Normandy.

I do think that she needs to rejoin Shepard - and I think it makes sense for it to happen sooner rather than later. Like I said before, they have lots of issues to work out together and I would think both of them would be eager to do so (depending on Shepard's reaction to her confession, of course).

True, there is dialogue there suggesting that the SB had a lot of information regarding the collectors, that Liara comes into possession of it and is going to check for weakness to exploit against the collectors. Obvisously as ME2 is presented now this function of Liara was deemed superfluous by BW and cut. She also basically says she can't come with Shepard because she has too much data to go through (pretty weak reason, I'm sure EDI would of been a great help), in some ways this is worse than the reason finally used in game (i.e to rescue Feron).

I agree, she needs to rejoin Shepard, for a multitude of reasons.

Edited by morrie23, 18 February 2010 - 11:43 PM.

[bjdbwea]

Found anything romance related that got cut? Though one would think they've learned to sort and clean their files before release by now. 

Let's just hope that the possible DLC does not play out that way, otherwise people will again suggest that content has been cut out during production, only to sell it as DLC later.

[MoSa09]

Nozybidaj wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...
we always have to keep in mind that foremost, all former squadmates reasons to not join you serve nothing but one purpose: and that is to give them a reason for refusing to join your team and be alive in ME 3

Not to be rude but that, and what Casey said, is all a load of horse****. 

They weren't in ME2 simply becaues BW didn't want them to be.  Simple as that. 

If they had wanted to continue these character's stories they would have been in ME2.  There is no good reason they couldn't have been included in the game aside from the simple fact that the devs DID NOT WANT THEM THERE.  It is just as easy to come up with excuses to include them as it is to exclude them, and that is all they are, excuses.  

Why they didn't want them there is the important question people should be asking themselves.

That's what i mean. Liara, Ash and Kaidan were not part of ME 2 because BioWare didn't want them to be. That's why we shouldn't pay too much attention to the story reasons they present us to hide/mask this fact. Because after ME 2 is done now, they can simply drop and ignore the stories they made up for covering they wanted them out of this game. I doubt they will be this brutal, but they could. The whole purpose was to keep them out of ME 2, that's why they came up with this stories. That job is done, no further need to stick to this cover up story, they can move it on, and that's what i expect they do.

And for reasons: first guess is to keep them alive, i can hardly argue against that.

Some people tend to believe here that ME 2 is s**t in regard to the old romances and especially Liara, and i can't agree. Sure, the way they handled especially Shepard's part of the reunion was incredibly clumsy, but there was no damage done that can't be repeaired in further stuff.
For Liara't change, two years of suffering can be a long time, and we didn't even know the whole story yet, so i delay my judgement until i know everything.
For her behaviour being out of character: what do we really know about her character? We did know her from some time in ME 1 and she presented herself as a shy and insecure woman, and you can still see glimpses of that in ME 2. But apart from we loved each other, we're in no position to determine what her character is. How does she react to stress, losses, and all this? The person we get to know we pulled out of a social hole and thrusted her forward into a world where she feels insecure and helpless, brought her into a relationship for the first time in her life, then to die and leave her alone for two years. How can one claim to really know her personality after such a short time and how she reacts to such an extreme situation she has never experienced before?

Her romance continuance was surely not handled in the best possible manner, and yeah, Casey brought up some marketing talk pre release (BioWare is still abut making money in the end), but there was no real damage done that cannot be easily repaired in ME 3 or dlc, and apart from how superficial, you still have that relationship.
So all reasons point out there will be a good conclusion to the romance in ME 3 WAY better than they handled ME 2, and the dev's say the same, so until the game itself proves me wrong, what i doubt, i see no reason to be overly pessimistic.

[Driveninhifi]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Not to be rude but that, and what Casey said, is all a load of horse****. 

They weren't in ME2 simply becaues BW didn't want them to be.  Simple as that. 

If they had wanted to continue these character's stories they would have been in ME2.  There is no good reason they couldn't have been included in the game aside from the simple fact that the devs DID NOT WANT THEM THERE.  It is just as easy to come up with excuses to include them as it is to exclude them, and that is all they are, excuses.  

Why they didn't want them there is the important question people should be asking themselves.

Not sure if this is totally fair. Yeah, the implementation of the ME1 LIs sucks in ME2, it's handled poorly and is very clumsy. Sure, we agree on that.

However, if they have ideas for them to play a big part in ME3 the options are either:
a) not let them join
make them invulnerable

I'd say making certain characters invulnerable is much worse than not allowing them to join. The reasons in-game are quite contrived, but imagine how bad it would be if everyone could die except the love interests...

[morrie23]

bjdbwea wrote...

Found anything romance related that got cut? Though one would think they've learned to sort and clean their files before release by now. 

Let's just hope that the possible DLC does not play out that way, otherwise people will again suggest that content has been cut out during production, only to sell it as DLC later.

Nope, no romance related dialogue found as of yet. Also note there is no mention of Feron, likely dialogue was written before comic was conceived. Hopefully the reason BW cut this Liara/SB subplot is was because they were not happy with it, and decided to take it in a different direction in the future. That or they wanted to milk us with the comic and DLC.

[Driveninhifi]

MoSa09 wrote...

For her behaviour being out of character: what do we really know about her character? We did know her from some time in ME 1 and she presented herself as a shy and insecure woman, and you can still see glimpses of that in ME 2. But apart from we loved each other, we're in no position to determine what her character is. How does she react to stress, losses, and all this? The person we get to know we pulled out of a social hole and thrusted her forward into a world where she feels insecure and helpless, brought her into a relationship for the first time in her life, then to die and leave her alone for two years. How can one claim to really know her personality after such a short time and how she reacts to such an extreme situation she has never experienced before?

To play devil's advocate here:
We do see how she reacts to loss. Remember, she sees her mom brainwashed has has to kill her. That doesn't drive her towards "Revenge on Saren at all costs" from what I recall.

From what we know of her character, revenge really doesn't fit. There has to be something more - she has to believe what she's doing is the "right" thing. Whether that's for her own redemption or she discovers the Shadow Broker is a danger to the galaxy doesn't matter. 

There needed to be a lot more development of her - you can present it subtly but the player really needed to be able to ask her a whole bunch more questions. The conversation is too impersonal. If Shepard loves her, or even cares about her the reactions you are given are not very natural. Too much is held back from the player, and that feels artificial.

[MoSa09]

Driveninhifi wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...

For her behaviour being out of character: what do we really know about her character? We did know her from some time in ME 1 and she presented herself as a shy and insecure woman, and you can still see glimpses of that in ME 2. But apart from we loved each other, we're in no position to determine what her character is. How does she react to stress, losses, and all this? The person we get to know we pulled out of a social hole and thrusted her forward into a world where she feels insecure and helpless, brought her into a relationship for the first time in her life, then to die and leave her alone for two years. How can one claim to really know her personality after such a short time and how she reacts to such an extreme situation she has never experienced before?

To play devil's advocate here:
We do see how she reacts to loss. Remember, she sees her mom brainwashed has has to kill her. That doesn't drive her towards "Revenge on Saren at all costs" from what I recall.

From what we know of her character, revenge really doesn't fit. There has to be something more - she has to believe what she's doing is the "right" thing. Whether that's for her own redemption or she discovers the Shadow Broker is a danger to the galaxy doesn't matter. 

There needed to be a lot more development of her - you can present it subtly but the player really needed to be able to ask her a whole bunch more questions. The conversation is too impersonal. If Shepard loves her, or even cares about her the reactions you are given are not very natural. Too much is held back from the player, and that feels artificial.

I knew you couldn't resist playing devil's adcovate

Okay, three things.

1. The loss of her mother happened under rather different circumstances. She stayed away from her mother, and though she still felt for her, they both pretty ignored each other for the last fifty years. Moreover, she had Separd and an important task, as well as the fascinating Reaper/Prothean riddle, to keep her distracted. With Shepard's death, she suddenly had nothing. Her old life locked away from everything was gone, the person who took her away from she and shielded her throughout the process dead and gone, no friends or family to comfort her. Both losses are hardly comparable in their greater circumstances imo.

2. I never wanted to defent the comics at all costs, her development seems prety rushed to a darker tone. I only wanted to say we do not know everything about her, and two years being alone and desperate can change every person and turn her upside down. And to repeat myself, until know, we simply do not know everything. That is not to say everyone has to like her new personality, but for a final judgement being out of character or simply unbelievable, i say we simply do not know enough. For me, such a change after two years is possible, and before i know everything, i'll keep my criticism low.

3. I agree the reunion is handled badly, but as you said, that'S mainly Shepard's fault. Given her fear Shep might hate her, i can see why she doesn't ask about the relationship. After hearing this, it'S Shepards job to bring the issue up, not her's. So rathter than blaming Liara and saying her romance continuance is bad, it'S really Shepard's part that was handled incredibly clumsy and could have been way better.

But again, no damage done that can't be repaired in dlc or ME 3, you're still in love, it goes on, and if Shep only delays the magic words til Me 3, i'm not completely satisfied or happy, but i'm okay.

Edited by MoSa09, 19 February 2010 - 12:13 AM.

[jlb524]

bjdbwea wrote...

Found anything romance related that got cut? Though one would think they've learned to sort and clean their files before release by now. 

Nope....nothing. 

[Driveninhifi]

MoSa09 wrote...
I knew you couldn't resist playing devil's adcovate

Okay, three things.

1. The loss of her mother happened under rather different circumstances. She stayed away from her mother, and though she still felt for her, they both pretty ignored each other for the last fifty years. Moreover, she had Separd and an important task, as well as the fascinating Reaper/Prothean riddle, to keep her distracted. With Shepard's death, she suddenly had nothing. Her old life locked away from everything was gone, the person who took her away from she and shielded her throughout the process dead and gone, no friends or family to comfort her. Both losses are hardly comparable in their greater circumstances imo.

2. I never wanted to defent the comics at all costs, her development seems prety rushed to a darker tone. I only wanted to say we do not know everything about her, and two years being alone and desperate can change every person and turn her upside down. And to repeat myself, until know, we simply do not know everything. That is not to say everyone has to like her new personality, but for a final judgement being out of character or simply unbelievable, i say we simply do not know enough. For me, such a change after two years is possible, and before i know everything, i'll keep my criticism low.

3. I agree the reunion is handled badly, but as you said, that'S mainly Shepard's fault. Given her fear Shep might hate her, i can see why she doesn't ask about the relationship. After hearing this, it'S Shepards job to bring the issue up, not her's. So rathter than blaming Liara and saying her romance continuance is bad, it'S really Shepard's part that was handled incredibly clumsy and could have been way better.

But again, no damage done that can't be repaired in dlc or ME 3, you're still in love, it goes on, and if Shep only delays the magic words til Me 3, i'm not completely satisfied or happy, but i'm okay.

Yeah, I can't disagree with your points.

Something that I feel should have been made more obvious is that her life has probably constantly been in danger for the past 2 years. I mean, we know her secretary was probably going to attempt to kill her. The SB is probably not a guy that takes something like stealing lying down. So he's probably been attempting to off her the entire time - and that alone would go a long way towards explaining her demeanor. It's either get tough, or be killed and Liara wants to live.

As for the comics, I agree that we should withhold judgement until they are complete. However I have been less than impressed thus far - normally I would happily give the team the benefit of the doubt, but the comics are really uneven. The main issue is that Liara's vendetta has to start like immediately after Shepard dies, but the character we see in ME2 can't just appear once the comics end. She has to develop into that over 2 years of hardship.

Lastly, yes, I agree that the main issue is Shepard's reaction. I actually love the idea that she's wary and reticent because she's scared to death Shepard will hate her. Making Liara be alone the past two years, not having any friends she can trust and having to fight, spy, etc is a very interesting place to take her.
The main issue is that they set up all this depth, but then don't let the player go into it!

[jlb524]

morrie23 wrote...


Nope, no romance related dialogue found as of yet. Also note there is no mention of Feron, likely dialogue was written before comic was conceived. Hopefully the reason BW cut this Liara/SB subplot is was because they were not happy with it, and decided to take it in a different direction in the future. That or they wanted to milk us with the comic and DLC.

I think it was just too much for them to accomplish in an ME2 side-quest.  Taking down the SB shouldn't be that easy.  Expanding it out into the comic, plus possible DLC, and maybe even ME3 would be truer to the story.

Edited by jlb524, 19 February 2010 - 12:23 AM.

[Driveninhifi]

bjdbwea wrote...

Found anything romance related that got cut? Though one would think they've learned to sort and clean their files before release by now. 

A note on that: that's really not easy to do. Every change, no matter, how small, has the potential to break things in unpredictable and catastrophic ways. It's much better to not change things if they are working.

From my reading of the cut content, it doesn't look like it's DLC related. Certainly some ideas may remain, but unless the DLC replaces the entire Liara interaction it wouldn't fit. She says the Observer survives your assault on the shadow broker, so the entire questline would need to change.