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[Yeled]

General Stubbs wrote...

BW somehow has to make the ME2 squaddies disappear for ME3, while making sure the ME2 LIs have a place in ME3 somewhere.

This confuses me too.  I firmly believe that ME2 was written with the intention of the ME2 squadmates not returning for ME3.  I know a lot of people believe (hope) otherwise, but I can't help but see the ending of ME2 as the mechanic that determined just about every other decision made for the game (well, plus the drive to bring in new players).  They knew that any of the characters could die, so they went in planning for none of them to make it through.

But the LI angle throws a wrench in this.  People are going to be very upset if ME2 LIs don't make it to the next game, just as we ME1 LI folks were upset about the crappy cameo's Liara, Ash, and Kaiden got in ME2.  Plus there has to be some form of consequence.

I personally think BioWare did not plan for all those iterations to be available in ME2, because they didn't plan for any of the ME2 characters to be available.  And I think they created a giant cluster**** for themselves.

[JPfanner]

It seems like most people want a catfight for not only justification, they want it for gratification as well. Because they're so awesome that people will fight over them and just go insane at the thought of being denied the chance to drink from the fountain of ultimate greatness that is their sexual prowess.

[jlb524]

JPfanner wrote...

It seems like most people want a catfight for not only justification, they want it for gratification as well. Because they're so awesome that people will fight over them and just go insane at the thought of being denied the chance to drink from the fountain of ultimate greatness that is their sexual prowess.

Precisely.  Both reasons put me off.  I hate catfights as they are usually sexist garbage.

[Driveninhifi]

I'm sure it crossed their minds, but it is a pretty huge issue they've created. Not a very fun corner to write yourself into, I'm sure.

As for the inevitable conflict between your ME1 and ME2 love interest:
I think Ashley would have a fight with whomever (especially Jack or Miranda).
Liara should NOT get violent at Shepard. At the other LI, sure. Say it's Tali - "You KNEW how I felt about Shepard, how could you do this?" Not a catfight, as that's garbage as jib says, but anger for sure.
She should be totally heartbroken and perhaps say "But I did so much for you!" (or something along those lines) - but she also has to expect it on some level. I mean, she's basically expecting Shepard to hate her anyway, so Shepard hooking up with someone else can't come as a surprise.
I agree that she would believe Shepard is important and try to help, but it probably would be too much for her to see Shepard with a new LI every day. If Shepard stays faithful, or never romanced her to begin with, I think she would stay on the Normandy.

There's actually a lot of very compelling ground to cover there - does she have this sort of unrequited love for Shepard? If she's the LI, is she overjoyed and possessive? Is she afraid of losing Shepard again? Lots of cool stuff that they haven't gone into yet (and, really, a bunch of it should have been covered in ME2).

And if you romanced Jack and went back to your ME1 LI, I think she should try to kill you and the LI.

Modifié par Driveninhifi, 22 mars 2010 - 06:54 .

[Nozybidaj]

Yeled wrote...
And I think they created a giant cluster**** for themselves.

Only if they plan to bring any/all of these characters back which I am not convinced of yet.

[Yeled]

JPfanner wrote...

It seems like most people want a catfight for not only justification, they want it for gratification as well. Because they're so awesome that people will fight over them and just go insane at the thought of being denied the chance to drink from the fountain of ultimate greatness that is their sexual prowess.

I just think a cat fight seems out of character for most of the LIs (including the men):

Liara:  Should feel heartbroken and sad and hurt, as JLB and Les described.

Ash:  As I said, I could see her punching Shepard in the face and then walking away.  Her anger would be directed at Shep, not at her rival.

Kaiden:  He'd be hurt.  Probably say something about thinking he and Shep had something special, and learning he was wrong.  Then he'd mope a bit.

Jack:  I could see Jack going crazy and destroying stuff, I suppose.  But she'd feel betrayed.  I don't think she'd fight someone.

Miranda:  I could see Miranda defending herself if attacked, and even getting into an argument with someone.  But I doublt she'd start something.  She's too cool and collected.

Tali:  Honestly?  I don't think so.

Thane:  He'd feel sad, and then he'd prepare himself to die.

Garrus:  I think he'd just suggest that maybe friendship would be a better option for he and Shep.

Jacob:  Honestly I am not really sure.

Kelly:  She'd probably suggest a threesome!

[Yeled]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Yeled wrote...
And I think they created a giant cluster**** for themselves.

Only if they plan to bring any/all of these characters back which I am not convinced of yet.

I think the cluster**** comes because they did not plan to bring any/all these characters back, and are now under tremendous pressure from their hardcore fans to do exactly what they never planned to do.

[Nozybidaj]

Yeled wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Yeled wrote...
And I think they created a giant cluster**** for themselves.

Only if they plan to bring any/all of these characters back which I am not convinced of yet.

I think the cluster**** comes because they did not plan to bring any/all these characters back, and are now under tremendous pressure from their hardcore fans to do exactly what they never planned to do.

/shrug  I doubt it.  They didn't seem to care about any fan pressure in ME2 for dumping Liara/Ash/Kaidan.  I doubt they will in ME3 either.

[Yeled]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I'm sure it crossed their minds, but it is a pretty huge issue they've created. Not a very fun corner to write yourself into, I'm sure.

As for the inevitable conflict between your ME1 and ME2 love interest:
I think Ashley would have a fight with whomever (especially Jack or Miranda).
Liara should NOT get violent at Shepard. At the other LI, sure. Say it's Tali - "You KNEW how I felt about Shepard, how could you do this?" Not a catfight, as that's garbage as jib says, but anger for sure.
She should be totally heartbroken and perhaps say "But I did so much for you!" (or something along those lines) - but she also has to expect it on some level. I mean, she's basically expecting Shepard to hate her anyway, so Shepard hooking up with someone else can't come as a surprise.
I agree that she would believe Shepard is important and try to help, but it probably would be too much for her to see Shepard with a new LI every day. If Shepard stays faithful, or never romanced her to begin with, I think she would stay on the Normandy.

There's actually a lot of very compelling ground to cover there - does she have this sort of unrequited love for Shepard? If she's the LI, is she overjoyed and possessive? Is she afraid of losing Shepard again? Lots of cool stuff that they haven't gone into yet (and, really, a bunch of it should have been covered in ME2).

And if you romanced Jack and went back to your ME1 LI, I think she should try to kill you and the LI.

Though I don't think they are going to have different scenes for each iteration of cheating, you've convinced me that the Liara/Tali angle would be compelling.  That would be very interesting to make it an issue they have to deal with as friends.  I think that ends badly for Shep, though, as neither of them will come choosing to stay with him (too bad they dropped the Tali romance with femshep).

You're right that there is a lot of good ground to cover if you cheated, but I don't have faith in BW anymore to actually handle it well.

[Yeled]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Yeled wrote...

I think the cluster**** comes because they did not plan to bring any/all these characters back, and are now under tremendous pressure from their hardcore fans to do exactly what they never planned to do.

/shrug  I doubt it.  They didn't seem to care about any fan pressure in ME2 for dumping Liara/Ash/Kaidan.  I doubt they will in ME3 either.

Don't you think the pressure is a lot more significant now?

[bjdbwea]

@ Driveninhifi

Tali will certainly stay, except perhaps if someone at EA recognizes how much money they could make off a comic with her. The reaction would be "funny" for sure.

Apart from that, you can always add more characters if you just make them flatter and give them less dialogue. We have already seen that in ME 2. The only reason some people think the characters are more detailed is because everyone has their own mission. But that's just that: One hour dedicated to them, during the rest of the game they're almost nobodies (with the exception of Mordin, curiously enough). And now I have read you can't even freely talk to your companions in Awakening apart from some spots in the landscape that you can click on. If that's the way to go, you can easily cram 20 companions into ME 3, with no depth to speak of obviously. But the new target audience - the shooter crowd - obviously doesn't care much about that anyway, and for them, compared to their usual games, ME 2 certainly has an amazing amount of depth and interaction.

You know, I wish we had more positive things to discuss, but apart from the memories of old and some screenshots, there's just not much there.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 22 mars 2010 - 07:23 .

[Marcin K]

Somebody1003 wrote...

[You sound so pessimist.

guess we need some fresh LiLi pic:
bam!

Modifié par Marcin R, 22 mars 2010 - 07:17 .

[Yeled]

bjdbwea wrote...

@ Driveninhifi

And now I have read you can't even freely talk to your companions in Awakening apart from some spots in the landscape that you can click on.

Is that true?!!!  If it is I'm glad I haven't purchased Awakening!  That would keep me from purchasing ME3 for sure if they implemented that as the new norm for their games.

Bah!  Somehow we need to start a new company to fill the niche Bioware seems to be abandoning! 

[Nozybidaj]

Yeled wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Yeled wrote...

I think the cluster**** comes because they did not plan to bring any/all these characters back, and are now under tremendous pressure from their hardcore fans to do exactly what they never planned to do.

/shrug  I doubt it.  They didn't seem to care about any fan pressure in ME2 for dumping Liara/Ash/Kaidan.  I doubt they will in ME3 either.

Don't you think the pressure is a lot more significant now?

Like I said, BW would have to care what we think.  I don't think they do.  Sure they'll add something like tali/garrus romances if it is convienent at the time but other than that, I don't actually think BW gives two flying fracks what we would like to see happen to these characters.

[JaylaClark]

Oh hell... I can feel we need a happy-pic and I'm not @ my PC...

[JPfanner]

@Yeled



Yep, I don't really see any of the ME1 squadmates fighting anyone. They're all heroes and fight the good fight for important causes. And two-faced Pimp Shepard isn't worth their time. The way it should be handled is that your "old" LI realises what an ass you are and that they're actually the lucky one. And your "current" LI should be wondering when their turn is going to come. There should still be an option for a mutual moved on dialog choice to cover the people that viewed the Mu Relay scene as a one time casual relationship. But any attempt at ****strutting should just get you slapped down by BOTH parties.

I don't think most of the motivation behind a catfight gets past "It'd be like totally awesome for people to fight over me in a game, because it sure as hell is never ever going to remotely happen in real life!" Well, they probably TRY not to think about that last part so much.

[Yeled]

General Stubbs wrote...

Jacob, unfortunately as no real reason to leave, Miranda doesn't either. The ending of ME2 f**ks things up even more, Miranda and Jacob could be away on Cerberus business if you saved the base, but what happens if you didn't?

Besides Jacob and Miranda, everybody in ME2 already has a reason not to be back.

BioWare could easily make something new up.  No one had any idea Liara would care about the SB at the end of ME1.  They introduced a new storyline to take her out of the mission.

The same can be done for Jacob (he's making amends to the families his father screwed over) and Miranda (saving her sister from another attempt by her father to kidnap her).  Just like it can be done for Tali if she was exiled (oh, the fleet brought her back!) and anyone else.

Getting rid of them isn't hard.  Its inluding them that is the real trick.

[JPfanner]

General Stubbs wrote...
Not that I would ever want to see Liara heartbroken (I wouldn't never even watch it on YouTube), I definitely wouldn't want a catfight.
Emotional scenes will always be better a better choice than some catfight the devs threw in there to make people say, "Wow, two hot women fighting each other!! Lose the clothes and kiss each other!".

That's true and it reminded me that even the confrontation between Loyal Miranda and Loyal Jack is trivialized and sexualized by Joker's comment about wanting you to take pictures.  I'm not trying to be overly sensitive, but when you have to conjecture on how things might be handled in the future, you have to base that off of how they've been handled in the past.

[bjdbwea]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Like I said, BW would have to care what we think.  I don't think they do.

To be fair, I think the people who actually made BG 2, DA and ME 1 do care. But who's going to risk their job by speaking up against the changes that are imposed from above? You can't as easily change your employer or even start your own studio as you once could in this business. And especially not during an economic crisis.