50907 réponses à ce sujet

[screwoffreg]

Driveninhifi wrote...

It doesn't make sense for her to hook up with Feron. She hasn't known him for very long and she's crazy dedicated to Shepard. It would be very forced to put that into the remaining two issues. It's much more likely to be guilt that drives her.

Also, it's not that Shepard has to redeem Liara, it's that she has to redeem herself. She even says it in the comics: she feels horrible about Shepard's death and not being able to do anything. If she gets Feron killed, that's just more guilt. It's really about her and her own issues more than it is about the Shadow Broker.
Although I think revenge doesn't fit her character very well at all - like screwoffreg says, unless she discovers the Shadow Broker doing something really horrible she is somewhat of a hypocrite. Now, I would definitely argue that the Shadow Broker is amoral and that she is probably a waaaay nicer info broker than he is (she does do all her business in the open, face-to-face, after all). She still is doing it for revenge, and I don't think that fits the way she's presented in ME1 at all.
If they make it clear that the Shadow Broker has been attempting to kill her for 2 straight years, the anger makes more sense. Survival coupled with incredible guilt fits well, but I think there's a lot missing from her motivation in ME2.

I am sure Liara has more than a few headless corpses in trunks somewhere to her name. It is not believable that you become one of the TOP information brokers on Illium without a few stray bullets/bodies.

[screwoffreg]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

If they make it clear that the Shadow Broker has been attempting to kill her for 2 straight years, the anger makes more sense. Survival coupled with incredible guilt fits well, but I think there's a lot missing from her motivation in ME2.

Exactly, Driven. That's why I said in the Liara group that I get the feeling that there will be a huge reveal at the end of Redemption regarding the Shadow Broker, that'll make it seem like Liara is more than justified in trying to eliminate him.

Whether it's that he's in league with the Reapers, or is doing something utterly abhorrent, we can only speculate.

Cerberus is utterly abhorent as well then, so I guess that would make her intentions of "saving" Shepard hardly noble.

Also bear in mind the Shadow Broker has a reason to be angry, especially at Feron. Remember in ME 1 when Fist, a jerk himself, broke his loyalty to the Broker for Saren that Wrex was hired to end his life.  Loyalty, information and power are the prime concerns of the Broker, not so much "ending the universe and all life in it".

Modifié par screwoffreg, 23 février 2010 - 10:17 .

[screwoffreg]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...


Cerberus is utterly abhorent as well then, so I guess that would make her intentions of "saving" Shepard hardly noble.

She didn't really have a choice in the matter, as Cerberus were the only organisation willing to resurrect Shepard. If anything, Liara is a victim of Cerberus too due to the TIM manipulating her through her emotional bond to Shepard, as he says himself in Redemption #1.

Even so, if you are a Reaper supporter they wanted to have Shepard "ascend" to glory .

Seriously, though, the whole issued is so muddled and gray I hope Bioware stays away from the easy roads such as:

Liara has always been good, world is bad not her!!!
Feron/Liara romance out of nowhere just to troll for cheap emotional response
Shadow Broker is really a SECRET REAPER GOD who for some reason always balances his information giving EXCEPT in the case of Shepard, who somehow he was always waiting for!!!

[JPfanner]

@screwoffreg



The Shadow Broker should be dead. If you don't think working with the Collectors is enough reason to kill someone, then I don't know what game you played but it wasn't ME2 where people get routinely gunned down just for being in the way as security guards. If anything, Liara is less "straying from the path" than Shepard and most of the rest of the cast.



And it's odd that you totally ignore the Garrus and Wrex points. How is Liara killing people that she feels needs to be killed to accomplish her goal automatically wrong? Yes, it would be bad for business if all sentient life was obliterated. So why did the Shadow Broker work with the Collectors? That's one of the things Liara is trying to find out and she tells you that. The Shadow Broker didn't just "provide information" but "sent mercs to get body and personal enforcer to hand deliver body to Collectors". In that cut dialog it was the Shadow Broker's freaking personal ship that was making the delivery, and it still might be in the comics coming up.



And I didn't say that redemption was condescending. I said that feeling that Liara needs redemption was condescending. So your line about religion was totally uncalled for and inaccurate. Maybe you should just start a thread for Shadow Broker apologists because that is really what everything you're saying comes down to.

[screwoffreg]

JPfanner wrote...

@screwoffreg

The Shadow Broker should be dead. If you don't think working with the Collectors is enough reason to kill someone, then I don't know what game you played but it wasn't ME2 where people get routinely gunned down just for being in the way as security guards. If anything, Liara is less "straying from the path" than Shepard and most of the rest of the cast.

And it's odd that you totally ignore the Garrus and Wrex points. How is Liara killing people that she feels needs to be killed to accomplish her goal automatically wrong? Yes, it would be bad for business if all sentient life was obliterated. So why did the Shadow Broker work with the Collectors? That's one of the things Liara is trying to find out and she tells you that. The Shadow Broker didn't just "provide information" but "sent mercs to get body and personal enforcer to hand deliver body to Collectors". In that cut dialog it was the Shadow Broker's freaking personal ship that was making the delivery, and it still might be in the comics coming up.

And I didn't say that redemption was condescending. I said that feeling that Liara needs redemption was condescending. So your line about religion was totally uncalled for and inaccurate. Maybe you should just start a thread for Shadow Broker apologists because that is really what everything you're saying comes down to.

You realize we are talking about fictional characters right?  Your tone is especially patronizing for such a topic.

My point is more STORY related.  I would think it too easy to simply make the Shadow Broker "I am a jerk bad guy" considering the whole Paragon/Renegade scale in ME.  Look at Cerebrus, for example.  I can imagine a Liara loyalty quest where, like the Collector Base decision, you could either outright "destroy" or damage the Shadow Broker or somehow convince Liara to give up her quest and allow the Shadow Broker to help you.

Think about it.  Giving the Collector Base to Cerebrus is about as "bad" as you can get.  Do you think they are NOT going to use Reaper technology for their benefit, perhaps even continuing the work on a smaller scale of the Collectors themselves? 

My point, as I said, was more plotline believability.  I don't have a PERSONAL stake in whether or not Liara is a bad virtual person.  I just think its a pretty "easy" road to make the whole Liara issue black and white, when a lot of ME 2 was somewhat conflicting, for a nice change (rewriting the Geth, for example).  Hell, one could even make the argument that in spite of the Illusive Man's intentions, the giving him the Base isn't as totally evil as you might imagine IF you manage to defeat the Reapers themselves.

Also, bear in mind the Shadow Broker works for ANYONE, so long as one power is not too ascendent over another.  If it was his personal ship (if he is even a person), why would that matter at all?  Why is the zealousness of a mercenary contract signs of some deeper evil than "I was paid to do this"?  I am trying to think about this in a more compex way than NUKE HIM FROM ORBIT WITH FIRE!!!!!

As for my religion comment, I don't think it was inaccurate or uncalled for, just making a point that redemption is a powerful motivator.  I am not a Christian and have no interest in portraying myself as such, but to deny its place in that religion and MANY others is to deny the central tenets of such faiths.  If such a belief can move billions, why could it not have a place in a video game story?

Modifié par screwoffreg, 23 février 2010 - 10:44 .

[speedy111280]

bjdbwea wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

I loved how in that interview that attributed the comic selling out to Liara's popularity. Makes me so happy to see she's a success.

Yeah, but if, like some of you have been fearing, she gets up to something with that Drell in one issue , that would probably sell out too. Just saying.

That's not going to happen. There isn't a place for it the comic, especially with only two issues left. Liara is far too concerned about getting Shepard back to give Feron much of a thought beyond making sure he doesn't betray her to the Shadow Broker.

[JPfanner]

You flat out said Liara was evil. How is that story related? Then instead of explaining how in the context of the actions and motivations of other characters in the Mass Effect Universe that would be a valid statement you depend entirely on the Shadow Broker being just a business person. If you think Liara needs redemption and that would be a good story then you need to tie it something besides the Shadow Broker not being a "jerk bad guy".



"You realize we are talking about fictional characters right? Your tone is especially patronizing for such a topic." Please, if you think my tone was patronizing then why don't you explain how this insinuation isn't?

[Driveninhifi]

Well, I do think the Shadow Broker is portrayed as "bad" in both games. He's a nefarious individual and probably is up to horrible things. I have a feeling they will show Liara as totally justified in hunting him - I can't imagine them making her unsympathetic.

I do agree that the mission to take down the Shadow Broker desperately needs an option for Shepard to talk Liara down. It would be disingenuous not to include it.

I also don't think she's necessarily had to kill innocents, etc, to make her information network. I'm sure she knocked off a few shady characters - but think about how many dudes she kills with Shepard in ME1.

I don't buy her being able to create her business in two years though. She would definitely be excellent at putting information together - she's had 50+ years of experience digging for clues and she's good at it - but she's not a politician nor is she particularly savvy in the way intrigue requires. People would probably respect/fear her because of her connection with Shepard at first, but I still think it's bit far-fetched.



I also think they wimped out and ret-conned Cerberus to make the player like them more. All the bad things turn out to be stuff like "Oh, those guys that tortured Jack were a rogue group!" or "Oh, we stopped experimenting on the Rachni once we realized they were intelligent." A bit too much of The Story Demands This And So It Shall Be.

[screwoffreg]

JPfanner wrote...

You flat out said Liara was evil. How is that story related? Then instead of explaining how in the context of the actions and motivations of other characters in the Mass Effect Universe that would be a valid statement you depend entirely on the Shadow Broker being just a business person. If you think Liara needs redemption and that would be a good story then you need to tie it something besides the Shadow Broker not being a "jerk bad guy".

"You realize we are talking about fictional characters right? Your tone is especially patronizing for such a topic." Please, if you think my tone was patronizing then why don't you explain how this insinuation isn't?

I never flat out said Liara was evil as my whole point is that evil is a stupid word that could mean a variety of things with a variety of motivations. 

I also never said that Liara's redemption storyline couldnt' be complex.  You assume far too much.  In the world of film there are many examples of such stories winding and weaving and ultimately ending up with a character "redeeming" themselves without seeming easy or cheap.  

Finally, your last point makes no sense.  If I state something plainly, like I felt your words were patronizing, how is that patronizing you?  If someone says, "you look rather upset today" are they too feeling upset, or simply pointing something out, perhaps for your benefit? 

It seems you have a problem with my speculation.  Let me remind you this ENTIRE damn thread, perhaps the entire forum itself is filled with speculation.  If you take issue with alternative viewpoints, you may find the Internet an unsuitable place to have such conversations, whether about videogames, politics, science or anything else.  In the end, Bioware will decide.  I wouldn't be surprised or necessarily "mad" if Bioware did take the route where the Shadow Broker is an agent of the Reapers, Shepard destroys him in a glorious mission, and Liara's friendship is cemented for good.  Bioware has good writers and perhaps they can make it believable and enjoyable.  I actually think that likely, but who really knows...or cares that much to get angry online about?

I take some time to write on this forum on my downtime because I like to write and have fun with speculation.  I am enjoying myself, and I hope you are too.  Just take it a bit easy, as you come off as very defensive.

[speedy111280]

I don't see that Liara needs to be redeemed for going after the Shadow Broker, not at this point, but she is dangling on the edge of going too far. There is only so far you can go playing the game Liara is playing before losing herself to the point that facade becomes a reality. However, Liara seems to think she does. Liara thinks she has to redeem herself for not being able to save Shepard from the Collector attack on the Normandy. She feels she let Shepard down and is doing the only thing she thinks will redeem her, going after the person who tried to sell Shepard to the Collectors.

I don't think Liara going after the Shadow Broker is hypocritical either because she's not going after the Shadow Broker for being an information broker, she's going after him because of trying to sell Shepard to the Collectors and for whatever happened to Feron. The Shadow Broker being an information broker is incidental. She'd be doing the same thing if it was just a random merc leader who had been trying to sell Shepard's body, although it would probably take her a lot less time to take out a merc leader than the Shadow Broker.

[screwoffreg]

Eh, in the end I just hope the whole story ends well. My main Shepard in ME 1 was a female with a Liara romance, but after realizing some of the "cool" stuff a male could do in ME 2, as well as the fact my female would likely be spending the night alone before the end, I have played other characters before her. I am sure she will be my FIRST playthrough when ME 3 comes out though, just to see how all the madness ends.

[screwoffreg]

justinnstuff wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

Eh, in the end I just hope the whole story ends well.

I hear ya. That's where I'm at. We can spend all day speculating and spelling out doomsday or spelling out the ending we want, but it's in BioWare's hands.

Well, if the idea behind the multiverse is true then who says we CAN'T get the ending we want!

In some far off ME universe parallel to ours...ME 3 ends EXACTLY how we want it to....

[MoSa09]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I don't buy her being able to create her business in two years though. She would definitely be excellent at putting information together - she's had 50+ years of experience digging for clues and she's good at it - but she's not a politician nor is she particularly savvy in the way intrigue requires. People would probably respect/fear her because of her connection with Shepard at first, but I still think it's bit far-fetched.
.

Maybe she took over someone else network. I agree,hard to imagine that within 2 years she simply created such a huge network herself. But maybe the comics or further ME 2 games explain that she took control of an existing network or got some huge help (maybe cause she was Benezia's daughter), and that will be adressed and be an important issue in a future plot?

[screwoffreg]

MoSa09 wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

I don't buy her being able to create her business in two years though. She would definitely be excellent at putting information together - she's had 50+ years of experience digging for clues and she's good at it - but she's not a politician nor is she particularly savvy in the way intrigue requires. People would probably respect/fear her because of her connection with Shepard at first, but I still think it's bit far-fetched.
.

Maybe she took over someone else network. I agree,hard to imagine that within 2 years she simply created such a huge network herself. But maybe the comics or further ME 2 games explain that she took control of an existing network or got some huge help (maybe cause she was Benezia's daughter), and that will be adressed and be an important issue in a future plot?

I always though it interesting the Illusive Man mentions that she works for the Shadow Broker and is not to be trusted.  Does he have a personal beef with Liara, as it seems unlikely he would be "wrong" about something like that considering he KNEW she gave him the body.  He is also eager to allow you to recruiter Garrus and Tali, so he doesn't hate your old crewmembers.

Perhaps the strange twist is that Liara is being manipulated into working for the Shadow Broker without her knowledge, or something similiar?  It's hard to believe someone as well informed as the Illusive Man could make a damn sloppy mistake...

[JPfanner]

screwoffreg wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

I don't buy her being able to create her business in two years though. She would definitely be excellent at putting information together - she's had 50+ years of experience digging for clues and she's good at it - but she's not a politician nor is she particularly savvy in the way intrigue requires. People would probably respect/fear her because of her connection with Shepard at first, but I still think it's bit far-fetched.
.

Maybe she took over someone else network. I agree,hard to imagine that within 2 years she simply created such a huge network herself. But maybe the comics or further ME 2 games explain that she took control of an existing network or got some huge help (maybe cause she was Benezia's daughter), and that will be adressed and be an important issue in a future plot?

I always though it interesting the Illusive Man mentions that she works for the Shadow Broker and is not to be trusted.  Does he have a personal beef with Liara, as it seems unlikely he would be "wrong" about something like that considering he KNEW she gave him the body.  He is also eager to allow you to recruiter Garrus and Tali, so he doesn't hate your old crewmembers.

Perhaps the strange twist is that Liara is being manipulated into working for the Shadow Broker without her knowledge, or something similiar?  It's hard to believe someone as well informed as the Illusive Man could make a damn sloppy mistake...

I took it as part of his campaign to isolate Shepard.  TIM should know full well that Liara has been hunting the Shadow Broker for two years and after everything she went through to get Shepard's body that there is no way she'd be working for him.  Just like TIM "leaks" that you're alive and with Cerberus to the Council and Alliance, or arranges the whole Horizon incident with Ashley/Kaiden.  From all the talk of being a symbol of the best of humanity in the beginning movie it seemed like TIM really wanted that symbol to be tied to Cerberus and isolating Shepard was a part of trying to accomplish that.

[MoSa09]

screwoffreg wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

I don't buy her being able to create her business in two years though. She would definitely be excellent at putting information together - she's had 50+ years of experience digging for clues and she's good at it - but she's not a politician nor is she particularly savvy in the way intrigue requires. People would probably respect/fear her because of her connection with Shepard at first, but I still think it's bit far-fetched.
.

Maybe she took over someone else network. I agree,hard to imagine that within 2 years she simply created such a huge network herself. But maybe the comics or further ME 2 games explain that she took control of an existing network or got some huge help (maybe cause she was Benezia's daughter), and that will be adressed and be an important issue in a future plot?

I always though it interesting the Illusive Man mentions that she works for the Shadow Broker and is not to be trusted.  Does he have a personal beef with Liara, as it seems unlikely he would be "wrong" about something like that considering he KNEW she gave him the body.  He is also eager to allow you to recruiter Garrus and Tali, so he doesn't hate your old crewmembers.

Perhaps the strange twist is that Liara is being manipulated into working for the Shadow Broker without her knowledge, or something similiar?  It's hard to believe someone as well informed as the Illusive Man could make a damn sloppy mistake...

I always thought he is just lying to you to get her out of your head. He also tries to force you to forget about Ash/Kaidan. So i always thought he lied mainly because he didn't want you to think of something or someone else and simply concentrate on the task at hand.

And he is not exactly fond of Tali joining. After your first meeting with Tali, he tells you he needs more information on her before he can allow for her to join. Only a while later Tali becomes recruitable, and he has no idea that Arcangel is Garrus. So i'd say you cannot really conclude he has no problems with your old companions

[screwoffreg]

MoSa09 wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

I don't buy her being able to create her business in two years though. She would definitely be excellent at putting information together - she's had 50+ years of experience digging for clues and she's good at it - but she's not a politician nor is she particularly savvy in the way intrigue requires. People would probably respect/fear her because of her connection with Shepard at first, but I still think it's bit far-fetched.
.

Maybe she took over someone else network. I agree,hard to imagine that within 2 years she simply created such a huge network herself. But maybe the comics or further ME 2 games explain that she took control of an existing network or got some huge help (maybe cause she was Benezia's daughter), and that will be adressed and be an important issue in a future plot?

I always though it interesting the Illusive Man mentions that she works for the Shadow Broker and is not to be trusted.  Does he have a personal beef with Liara, as it seems unlikely he would be "wrong" about something like that considering he KNEW she gave him the body.  He is also eager to allow you to recruiter Garrus and Tali, so he doesn't hate your old crewmembers.

Perhaps the strange twist is that Liara is being manipulated into working for the Shadow Broker without her knowledge, or something similiar?  It's hard to believe someone as well informed as the Illusive Man could make a damn sloppy mistake...

I always thought he is just lying to you to get her out of your head. He also tries to force you to forget about Ash/Kaidan. So i always thought he lied mainly because he didn't want you to think of something or someone else and simply concentrate on the task at hand.

And he is not exactly fond of Tali joining. After your first meeting with Tali, he tells you he needs more information on her before he can allow for her to join. Only a while later Tali becomes recruitable, and he has no idea that Arcangel is Garrus. So i'd say you cannot really conclude he has no problems with your old companions

Part of the bummer in ME 2 was how little "choice" Shepard really had in conversations.  You never get to call the Illusive Man out on the above point to see if he is telling the truth just like you never get to expand your conversation with Liara to anything more than "well, good luck!!! thanks for the resurrection!".  Hell, if Shepard was a sole survivor, then Cerebrus is likely behind the death of everyone around him/her...yet it barely even gets mentioned! 

There are a lot of these plot holes in ME 2 that other Bioware games show can be addressed.  Even little things, like in Dragon Age if you have a romance and kiss a bar wench, your love interest damn sure reacts!  On Illium, I was romancing Tali and she didn't give a hoot that Liara basically makes out with me for two seconds, nor does Liara even acknowledge her.  Cool!!!

[Driveninhifi]

screwoffreg wrote...

I always though it interesting the Illusive Man mentions that she works for the Shadow Broker and is not to be trusted.  Does he have a personal beef with Liara, as it seems unlikely he would be "wrong" about something like that considering he KNEW she gave him the body.  He is also eager to allow you to recruiter Garrus and Tali, so he doesn't hate your old crewmembers.

Perhaps the strange twist is that Liara is being manipulated into working for the Shadow Broker without her knowledge, or something similiar?  It's hard to believe someone as well informed as the Illusive Man could make a damn sloppy mistake...

I think he does have a beef with her. He also is a jerk. He creates the Horizon incident, as mentioned, and sends you off on the Collector's ship knowing it's a trap. Liara's got access to a lot of info that could undermine him and he doesn't want to lose control of the situation (ie, Shepard).
I really don't see Liara working with the Shadow Broker - though it does seem like the SB is spying on her and probably is using her. Nyxeris is an important agent for him, right? She's had access to a lot of what Liara's been doing; there's no way she'd be able to catch him with Nyxeris watching her.

Something that gets lost: Shepard is an INCREDIBLY dangerous individual. Were I in TIM's place, I'd be very wary of Shepard turning against me - as Shepard's enemies tend not to live very long.
Which is kind of amusing: Liara has been looking for the Shadow Broker for two years. You know the DLC/ME3 is going to involve taking him down - Shepard will accomplish what Liara's been trying to do in a fraction of the time. I wonder if that will play into her self-esteem.

[MoSa09]

screwoffreg wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

I don't buy her being able to create her business in two years though. She would definitely be excellent at putting information together - she's had 50+ years of experience digging for clues and she's good at it - but she's not a politician nor is she particularly savvy in the way intrigue requires. People would probably respect/fear her because of her connection with Shepard at first, but I still think it's bit far-fetched.
.

Maybe she took over someone else network. I agree,hard to imagine that within 2 years she simply created such a huge network herself. But maybe the comics or further ME 2 games explain that she took control of an existing network or got some huge help (maybe cause she was Benezia's daughter), and that will be adressed and be an important issue in a future plot?

I always though it interesting the Illusive Man mentions that she works for the Shadow Broker and is not to be trusted.  Does he have a personal beef with Liara, as it seems unlikely he would be "wrong" about something like that considering he KNEW she gave him the body.  He is also eager to allow you to recruiter Garrus and Tali, so he doesn't hate your old crewmembers.

Perhaps the strange twist is that Liara is being manipulated into working for the Shadow Broker without her knowledge, or something similiar?  It's hard to believe someone as well informed as the Illusive Man could make a damn sloppy mistake...

I always thought he is just lying to you to get her out of your head. He also tries to force you to forget about Ash/Kaidan. So i always thought he lied mainly because he didn't want you to think of something or someone else and simply concentrate on the task at hand.

And he is not exactly fond of Tali joining. After your first meeting with Tali, he tells you he needs more information on her before he can allow for her to join. Only a while later Tali becomes recruitable, and he has no idea that Arcangel is Garrus. So i'd say you cannot really conclude he has no problems with your old companions

Part of the bummer in ME 2 was how little "choice" Shepard really had in conversations.  You never get to call the Illusive Man out on the above point to see if he is telling the truth just like you never get to expand your conversation with Liara to anything more than "well, good luck!!! thanks for the resurrection!".  Hell, if Shepard was a sole survivor, then Cerebrus is likely behind the death of everyone around him/her...yet it barely even gets mentioned! 

There are a lot of these plot holes in ME 2 that other Bioware games show can be addressed.  Even little things, like in Dragon Age if you have a romance and kiss a bar wench, your love interest damn sure reacts!  On Illium, I was romancing Tali and she didn't give a hoot that Liara basically makes out with me for two seconds, nor does Liara even acknowledge her.  Cool!!!

yeah, these are some important things. I f have seen what Cerberus did with the Rachni, i was sole survivor of Akuze, and i never could talk to Tim.

And the strangest thing was that, as you said, your old romance was not acknowledged by your old crewmates. I mean, Tali and Garrus must have known, and both have no issues or even ask you about what's the deal you are now making out with them. Not very realistic, any normal person would like to know what's going on and what the feeling of Shep are "Am i just an adventure as long is his former love is not available"?  To me, it doens't seem to fit Tali's character to simply cheat without a fuss on a former crewmate and maybe friend, even if Shepard has no issues with it.
I know making games is difficult, and it's never finished in a way you can always add some stuff to it, so at a certain point you have to declare it done and live with the result, especially as it get's more and more expansive with time passing, but they definetively wasted some atmospheric potential there