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[Driveninhifi]

screwoffreg wrote...
Part of the bummer in ME 2 was how little "choice" Shepard really had in conversations.  You never get to call the Illusive Man out on the above point to see if he is telling the truth just like you never get to expand your conversation with Liara to anything more than "well, good luck!!! thanks for the resurrection!".  Hell, if Shepard was a sole survivor, then Cerebrus is likely behind the death of everyone around him/her...yet it barely even gets mentioned! 

There are a lot of these plot holes in ME 2 that other Bioware games show can be addressed.  Even little things, like in Dragon Age if you have a romance and kiss a bar wench, your love interest damn sure reacts!  On Illium, I was romancing Tali and she didn't give a hoot that Liara basically makes out with me for two seconds, nor does Liara even acknowledge her.  Cool!!!

Yeah, I agree. Some conversations are fine - others are not. Liara's interaction is the most egregious example of the game holding back conversations and info from the player though. It feels really artificial. They probably ran out of time, realistically.

[bjdbwea]

They kind of explained that with different groups within Cerberus. The IM would probably just deny any knowledge. Too unimportant for him. Lame, sure, but what isn't. The LI stuff is more important, because there more than anywhere else, BioWare slaps pure unrealism right in your face.

[Driveninhifi]

Whaaa? ME1 has a ton of flaws. None of the characters have great development since their advice to you in the missions is related to which slot they're in. One is always paragon and one is always renegade. So you get Wrex/Ashley being the voice of reason and Kaidan/Liara saying "KILL" if you have them in the wrong slot. It's really weird.



Wrex and Garrus are really the most interesting characters in ME1.

I thought Liara was actually pretty boring in ME1. Certainly there's an earnestness that's appealing, but she functions as a codex entry for a lot of the game. Then she becomes obsessed/falls in love with Shepard even if the Commander is total jerk to her.

However, I think they tried to make her interesting and skipped the crucial "character development" step in ME2. Moving it into the comic really hurts her character - it needs to be shown in game.

[Sharn01]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I also think they wimped out and ret-conned Cerberus to make the player like them more. All the bad things turn out to be stuff like "Oh, those guys that tortured Jack were a rogue group!" or "Oh, we stopped experimenting on the Rachni once we realized they were intelligent." A bit too much of The Story Demands This And So It Shall Be.

I think TIM, and any other important people are well aware of everything their different group's are up to, they will simply lie to the other member's that may not be able to stomach everything Cerberus does.  I think most of Cerberus's employee's would have nothing to do with them if they where aware of everything the group was responsible for and it did not make excuses for the few really bad things they find out about, like any drone working for a corporation, they are unaware of everything the company is up to.

Cerberus is responsible for an awful lot of death's just in the few mission's you take part in in ME1, probably more daeth's then the main villian's Saren and Sovereign.  The character is not allowed to comment for the most part on these event's in ME2, and this is just what appear's in the game, if you take into account all of Cerberus's activities in the games literature and history, they would be a completely believable main villian for ME2, as they have put the Collector's kill count to shame, strangely with the vast majority of the death's they cause being human death's.

I started to get a bad feeling when I began playing ME2 when they forced me to work for Cerberus without believably calling them out on their past event's, its even worse for a sole-survivor who was personally traumatized by the organization.  The feeling did not get better as ME2 progressed, and the ME1 LI where the final insult that ruined much of the experiance. 

As a stand alone game with a character other then Shepard, ME2 would have been a great game, almost all of its fault's lie in the poor continuity between ME1 and ME2 and the lack of proper character developement. 

[SoulMisaki]

Excuse me for not looking through every single post, and even more so if this is a repeated comment.



But, there has been a rumor of someone looking through the coelsd (Or whatever it's called...) file in the PC version.



They found the DLC files for NorCrshPk. And ZaDLC. (Normandy Crash Pack and Zaeed.) In the same location, they found LiaMisPk. Liara Mission Pack?

[Sharn01]

There are rumor's of a Liara DLC pack, that people think will be released after the comic's are finished.



There is also a lot of supporting evidence that a lot of Liara content was cut from the origonal plan's for ME2 and scrapped, the content is still in the game, but the trigger's removed. This is where people are linking together evidence that after Shep's death but before s/he woke in the lab player's where suppose to take on the role of Legion, and help Liara get Shep's body from the Shadow Broker.

[Adon 9]

Sharn01 wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

I also think they wimped out and ret-conned Cerberus to make the player like them more. All the bad things turn out to be stuff like "Oh, those guys that tortured Jack were a rogue group!" or "Oh, we stopped experimenting on the Rachni once we realized they were intelligent." A bit too much of The Story Demands This And So It Shall Be.

I think TIM, and any other important people are well aware of everything their different group's are up to, they will simply lie to the other member's that may not be able to stomach everything Cerberus does.  I think most of Cerberus's employee's would have nothing to do with them if they where aware of everything the group was responsible for and it did not make excuses for the few really bad things they find out about, like any drone working for a corporation, they are unaware of everything the company is up to.

Supporting this concept is talking to EDI before and after she's had her blocks removed.  Before, she will tell you that Cerberus is divided into cells, each autonomous.  So when a cell commits an attrocity, they're pretty quick to say 'oh, rogue cell!  That doesn't reflect Cerberus as a whole!'

After the blocks come down, she reveals that the Illusive Man keeps tabs on each of the cells and makes sure there aren't too many at one time so his attention isn't divided too much.  This is *secret* info, stuff that TIM doesn't want you to know.  Which tells me that he knows a lot more about what's going on in those 'rogue' cells than many in Cerberus would like to believe.

In short, the rogue cells excuse is basically there for deniability, which is pretty much why cells are used.  If something goes wrong with one, Cerberus will quickly cut all ties and deny all responsibility.  TIM knows damn well that a lot of them are up to really bad stuff, but so long as they get results and things don't go bad, he doesn't care.

[Unato]

SoulMisaki wrote...

Excuse me for not looking through every single post, and even more so if this is a repeated comment.

But, there has been a rumor of someone looking through the coelsd (Or whatever it's called...) file in the PC version.

They found the DLC files for NorCrshPk. And ZaDLC. (Normandy Crash Pack and Zaeed.) In the same location, they found LiaMisPk. Liara Mission Pack?

if you mean coalesced.ini then no I can't see it, none of what you said is there ( i did a general search for anything starting with "nor" and "lia" )

if you mean the CookedPC directory then yea there's numourous references to the Normandy Crash site,  as well as Zaeed and Kasumi and the Liara DLC although unlike Kasumi none of the Liara DLC files actually open with anything tangelble inside ( understandable since the individual files for it are so small )

[Driveninhifi]

The cut Liara content that was mentioned probably doesn't have to do with the DLC. The interaction is quite different (you kill the shadow broker with her, then you discover the Observer survived), so unless they just replace the entire Liara interaction it wouldn't make sense to use the hidden dialogue.

It's much more likely the mission pack will have you searching for Feron/Shadow Broker.

[Unato]

Driveninhifi wrote...

The cut Liara content that was mentioned probably doesn't have to do with the DLC. The interaction is quite different (you kill the shadow broker with her, then you discover the Observer survived), so unless they just replace the entire Liara interaction it wouldn't make sense to use the hidden dialogue.
It's much more likely the mission pack will have you searching for Feron/Shadow Broker.

that's true, I think the entire Liara story was rewritten not only to accomodate the comic but also for future content that they may or maynot be released

[ratzerman]

Unato wrote...

that's true, I think the entire Liara story was rewritten not only to accomodate the comic but also for future content that they may or maynot be released

Translation.... the entire Liara story was rewritten to squeeze more money out of her fans.
<_<

[Unato]

maybe...



writers often talk about how they are constrained ( by time, length of movie, budget etc ) perhaps BW had such a grand sweeping story to tell that they can't possible do it all for both ME2 and ME3 and thus had to branch out. as much as we love to have say 50% of ME2 devoted to Liara, realistically that won't happen which is a shame but ME2 is still an awesome game

[screwoffreg]

ratzerman wrote...

Unato wrote...

that's true, I think the entire Liara story was rewritten not only to accomodate the comic but also for future content that they may or maynot be released

Translation.... the entire Liara story was rewritten to squeeze more money out of her fans.
<_<

It wouldn't surprise me. Look at Shale in Dragon Age, a full fledged character with massive spoken dialogue that mysteriously becomes DLC.  It is clear that Shale was MEANT to be in the game as she is basically critical to the story, but hey, cash flow!

I hope Liara DLC comes out when the comic finishes as it seems all the stuff loaded, but hidden, in ME 2 (Zaeed, Kasumi, Hammerhead) are probably meant to come out relatively soon since they have parts already built into the game.  Full fledged ME 2 to ME 3 bridging missions will probably come out shortly before ME 3, perhaps a year to six months before, as I believe an interview hinted at.

I imagine the Liara DLC will wrap up some loose ends, but I can't see Liara joining the crew post-game as she would basically be involved in no missions with no real interaction.  Who knows, I might be 1000 percent wrong though.

[screwoffreg]

Unato wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

The cut Liara content that was mentioned probably doesn't have to do with the DLC. The interaction is quite different (you kill the shadow broker with her, then you discover the Observer survived), so unless they just replace the entire Liara interaction it wouldn't make sense to use the hidden dialogue.
It's much more likely the mission pack will have you searching for Feron/Shadow Broker.

that's true, I think the entire Liara story was rewritten not only to accomodate the comic but also for future content that they may or maynot be released

Dumping the Liara story into a comic...eh....<_<

[Driveninhifi]

It would be hard to have her join the crew post game as you have to rectify that timeline with those where the player didn't buy the DLC. Although from a storyline perspective it makes sense that she would rejoin Shepard once the Shadow Broker is dealt with. She's not in the info business for her own self-aggrandizement, she's in it to find the Shadow Broker. Once that is done, what is left for her? She doesn't really have any friends other than Shepard - she tells you this outright.

The cut content's "oh I have to stay and read" is an incredibly contrived reason. If she found immediately applicable info about the Reapers or was asked by Shepard to stay, then I can see it. She really has to stay off the ship for Shepard. Otherwise there's really no reason she couldn't research on the Normandy - Miranda has no trouble keeping up with her contacts while on board.

Especially, if she's the love interest - one that thing that bothered me is that I can't imagine her letting Shepard go off to get killed again without saying something or coming along.

[Driveninhifi]

I feel like putting the Liara story into a comic wasn't a very good decision from a storytelling standpoint. Probably a good business decision, but it hurts the character. If the comic were amazing I'd feel differently, but it's really mediocre thus far.

[screwoffreg]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I feel like putting the Liara story into a comic wasn't a very good decision from a storytelling standpoint. Probably a good business decision, but it hurts the character. If the comic were amazing I'd feel differently, but it's really mediocre thus far.

Yeah, I read the first one.  Wasn't real impressed though they promise a "SHOCKING" ending.  I really hope it isn't something out of nowhere and cheap. Considering the whole comic takes place in seemingly a few days, it would be hilarious to watch them shoehorn in a giant troll like "SHE SLEEPS WITH FERON!!!" or "THE SHADOW BROKER IS YOUR FATHER, LUKE!!!"

[GnusmasTHX]

I'd agree. The comics aren't too great. Most superficial criticism: the art just looks weird in some panels.

[screwoffreg]

justinnstuff wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

I feel like putting the Liara story into a comic wasn't a very good decision from a storytelling standpoint. Probably a good business decision, but it hurts the character. If the comic were amazing I'd feel differently, but it's really mediocre thus far.

Yeah, I read the first one.  Wasn't real impressed though they promise a "SHOCKING" ending.  I really hope it isn't something out of nowhere and cheap. Considering the whole comic takes place in seemingly a few days, it would be hilarious to watch them shoehorn in a giant troll like "SHE SLEEPS WITH FERON!!!" or "THE SHADOW BROKER IS YOUR FATHER, LUKE!!!"

I'm scared that you're probably right.

Egads, I would at least prefer the shocking Father reveal to the cheap emotional pull of "SHES A CHEATER, HATE HER!!!!"

At least in Dragon Age, Morrigan's "betrayal" was built up on a friendship/romance so it actually felt like "damn, this sucks".  An out of character "I am a real player" move by Liara, former scientist and awkward nerd, would be hilariously out of place.

[TripleThreeTwo]

/support 

[Slakky]

ratzerman wrote...

Unato wrote...

that's true, I think the entire Liara story was rewritten not only to accomodate the comic but also for future content that they may or maynot be released

Translation.... the entire Liara story was rewritten to squeeze more money out of her fans.
<_<

I'm thinking it was more down to genuine playtesting and plot development issues.  Playtesters didn't understand who Liara and the Shadow Broker were, and Liara being the new SB doesn't fit with the long term direction they want for her.

If it was just cash, they could have clipped that entire mission out and sold it separately without any trouble.  Instead they pulled some weird last minute butchery where they inserted another throwaway Drell and seriously compromised Legion's character development.