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[scmadsen]

-snip-

Modifié par scmadsen, 25 mars 2010 - 03:29 .

[scmadsen]

It's an interesting theory that Liara was the key to bringing Shepard back to life. Building a body is one thing. That is technology easy when you are talking science fiction. It's the, lets call it, metaphysical, that gets complicated.

The same with clones. They might have the same body, but you can't just copy a mind. We can't yet anyway. Perhaps with computers, since our thoughts are basically energy...but the dead back to life. That energy is gone.

Liara provides a nice loophole. She was inside Shepard's mind, and in the case of a LI, most likely the morning of and/or night before, the Normandy being blown up. So at most, if Liara provided a "copy" of everything that mentally makes up Shepard...Shepard would only lose a few hours of memory. Liara could fill in those gaps for Shepard too.

*edit*

I thought I'd add, after taking a minute longer to think on this...that aren't the Asari already doing this, for the tank breed Krogan. Doesn't Rana Thanoptis talk about working with Okeer on an imprint. Perhaps it was someone else. But even on Virmire, someone was imprinting those Krogan with everything they needed to know. So, it's not far fetched at all to think Liara provided the copy of Shepard's mind. Perhaps even, once the brain was fully formed and ready, and the body alive enough, she came to the station and melded with Shepard, giving back everything.

Why is it, that the thought of that, sounds rather romance...I didn't think I could love Liara anymore then I already do. Poor girl, she's been thru so much.

Modifié par scmadsen, 25 mars 2010 - 03:35 .

[JPfanner]

Liara providing at least error checking, if not patching in whole sections of "Shepard" would really provide the only 'realistic' way to bring Shepard back as the same person, with the same memories, morals, and beliefs. Those kinds of things aren't otherwise quantifiable, you can't really measure them or get a bottle of Shepard's morals and add a few more drops if you're a bit low.

Even if they used nanotech to painstakingly replace Shepard's entire nervous system and brain, cell by cell, Shepard would still just be dead because a living person is an event and not an object. I think that's what they did do though, and then switched to cybernetic implants and cloned tissue for things like the skeleton, muscle, and organs.

And Shepard was DEAD. Not Princess Bride mostly dead. Not even open casket services dead. You were suffocated, charred, pulped, and frozen. That x-ray of your skeleton during the reanimation movie makes it look like a bag of crackers someone stomped on. Your head seems to be intact though, but that's the only part. Your skin and flesh looks like a marshmellow someone dropped in a campfire. Screwing in a few plates and pumping you full of Medigel isn't going to get you a Shepard in the end.

[Unata]

Wait a moment, I can understand it seemingly being a romantic thing for Liara to do for Shepard, but on the other hand wouldn't that be just like taking a clone and stuffing the brain with memories?

Liara would have influenced Shepard's mind with her own insight on shared memories, thus making a different Shepard, to be honest that worries me, for Liara to love Shepard, Shepard has to be the real, unchanged, uninfluenced Shepard she knew before the death.

[JPfanner]

Unata wrote...

Wait a moment, I can understand it seemingly being a romantic thing for Liara to do for Shepard, but on the other hand wouldn't that be just like taking a clone and stuffing the brain with memories?
Liara would have influenced Shepard's mind with her own insight on shared memories, thus making a different Shepard, to be honest that worries me, for Liara to love Shepard, Shepard has to be the real, unchanged, uninfluenced Shepard she knew before the death.

Yeah, I don't think Cerberus actually had her involved with the Lazarus Project.  Even though it'd be the only 'realistic' way to get anything off that slab that even remotely resembled the real Shepard.
Instead I really do think that we're expected to just accept that Cerberus somehow simply rebuilt frozen beef jerky Shepard into the same old Shepard in every way.
In any kind of realism though, Shepard died and is gone.  Just within the fiction of the game we somehow came back the same as before.

[scmadsen]

Anyone can just make a copy, and not care. Like a Krogan tank imprint. But I would think Liara would painstakingly make sure Shepard was exactly like before. That's a touching thought to me. It is also sad. I mean, it's a really grey area rather Shepard is really Shepard at this point. If you don't think about the body, then Shepard never really died...and lived on, inside Liara. That's a very Asari point of view, and I think is at the core of their philosophy and belief system. The Long View as they call it. That their love isn't really gone, but lives on with them. Liara is a special case when it comes to Asari. She couldn't give up Shepard, when the offer came to let him/her be rebuilt.

[scmadsen]

I don't think Cerberus had a choice in the matter. A Shepard clone is useless. Shepard has to be the same person. Liara is the only non-magic way of making that happen.

[Unata]

JPfanner wrote...

Unata wrote...

Wait a moment, I can understand it seemingly being a romantic thing for Liara to do for Shepard, but on the other hand wouldn't that be just like taking a clone and stuffing the brain with memories?
Liara would have influenced Shepard's mind with her own insight on shared memories, thus making a different Shepard, to be honest that worries me, for Liara to love Shepard, Shepard has to be the real, unchanged, uninfluenced Shepard she knew before the death.

Yeah, I don't think Cerberus actually had her involved with the Lazarus Project.  Even though it'd be the only 'realistic' way to get anything off that slab that even remotely resembled the real Shepard.
Instead I really do think that we're expected to just accept that Cerberus somehow simply rebuilt frozen beef jerky Shepard into the same old Shepard in every way.
In any kind of realism though, Shepard died and is gone.  Just within the fiction of the game we somehow came back the same as before.

I will stick with believing the fiction , anything else would give reason for Liara to have been cool to Shepard knowing it isn't really the Shepard she loves/loved

[scmadsen]

Couldn't it oddly explain why Shepard acts like a heartless moron in the reunion. I mean, perhaps Shepard already knows everything, because Liara imprinted extra information. Perhaps Liara has a plan and Shepard is playing along. She never meant to kiss Shepard but couldn't help it. Thus the head shake and pull away. Liara is fighting back letting it all out, she breaks down, and lets stuff slip out. Shepard already knows, so sits there, and doesn't make it even harder on Liara.



Ok, I know I'm reaching here.

[JPfanner]

General Stubbs wrote...
The thought of neurologically gathering genetic information is interesting, I wonder how much control the Asari have over the actual genetic variances, since they allow that information to pass into the genetic information of the child, I would assume they would have some sort of control over some of the genetic characteristics. (If they can allow their partner to share with them and stop it as well, that would also require a lot of neurological control).
Definitely not the actual DNA itself, that would be far too massive to be able to sort through, but maybe some of the larger parts of genetic characterisitics (facial features and such).

This also makes me wonder about genetic malformations in the Asari, do they have that great of control over what genetic information goes into their child that they can "sort through" some of it for specific characteristics. Or maybe the genetic malformations that take place in the Asari are actually their mistake for not using the right genetic variances.
I would argue it could be completely randomized, but then the Asari daughter would have a chance of looking exactly like a Human if it was, so there is definitely some control involved.

I think some of the things that the asari say about producing daughters with other species has to be taken with a grain of salt.  Like in the codex and Liara both say that gaining actual genetic traits from other species is anecdotal.  Ok, they've been doing it with other species for over 2700 years, so anecdotal evidence for that really means there is no evidence but a lot of people believe it anyway.  What Erinya says on Illium is probably closer to the truth.
Like when asari explore the genetics of their partner, they aren't really exploring the actual genetic makeup of their partner, but how those genetics are expressed in their nervous system and self.  What they would get neurologically from the melding.  Except for skin color, pattern markings, and maybe orientation of the crest, there is no physical difference between a hanar-asari daughter, salarian-asari daughter, or a pureblood.  They're all asari and will all produce pureblood daughters with any other asari.
I just think that since asari are so similar to each other no matter the race of the parent and they all produce purebloods with each other, that there isn't that much variance between any two asari no matter who they had for parents.  Asari with a hanar parent would look nothing like an asari with a turian parent otherwise.
I don't know about the mother influencing the development of the child physically.  It is certainly interesting and given their control over their physiology possible.  Are hanar-asari purple because of their genetics, or because their mother expected them to be?  I don't think any gross physical changes are possible in any case.  Asari are just always asari, the range of the cosmetic physical traits they express just falls into predictable patterns depending on their father.

[JPfanner]

scmadsen wrote...
Couldn't it oddly explain why Shepard acts like a heartless moron in the reunion. I mean, perhaps Shepard already knows everything, because Liara imprinted extra information. Perhaps Liara has a plan and Shepard is playing along. She never meant to kiss Shepard but couldn't help it. Thus the head shake and pull away. Liara is fighting back letting it all out, she breaks down, and lets stuff slip out. Shepard already knows, so sits there, and doesn't make it even harder on Liara.

Ok, I know I'm reaching here.

The problem with that from a game perspective is that the player is supposed to be Shepard and to know what Shepard knows, or at least have a chance to be informed of it.  That kind of thing would work as storytelling device in a book or movie where we were watching, but in a game we're supposed to be participating.

I seriously do think we're just supposed to accept that Shepard was dead, but Cerberus fixed that, so no need to worry about anything regarding it.  And it's crazy, but Shepard is remarkably blaise about the entire dying thing in the game.  Jacob says you were "just meat and tubes" and "probably not a clone", and Miranda says you don't have a control chip in you.  And that pretty much satisfies Shepard's metaphysical questions and it is really never brought up again.

[scmadsen]

Changing the subject here. Anyone wish you could have given the Shepard VI program to Liara, to replace Nyxeris, and give Liara something to remind her of you while you're gone and she is buried in her work. I went back there right away but couldn't. I really thought it would of been something sweet.

[Slakky]

scmadsen wrote...

Changing the subject here. Anyone wish you could have given the Shepard VI program to Liara, to replace Nyxeris, and give Liara something to remind her of you while you're gone and she is buried in her work. I went back there right away but couldn't. I really thought it would of been something sweet.

Nah man, that's Shisk's job.

Liara's Vorcha intern for squadmate in ME3.

[TheLostGenius]

Liara should have been playable in ME2, not Tali, or Garrus for that matter. They made the most interesting alien character from ME1 a minor side character. Wow, super lame.

[Unata]

scmadsen wrote...

Changing the subject here. Anyone wish you could have given the Shepard VI program to Liara, to replace Nyxeris, and give Liara something to remind her of you while you're gone and she is buried in her work. I went back there right away but couldn't. I really thought it would of been something sweet.

Hehe just what Liara needs on her desk, every 30 minutes "I delete data like you on the way to real errors"

[Unata]

TheLostGenius wrote...

Liara should have been playable in ME2, not Tali, or Garrus for that matter. They made the most interesting alien character from ME1 a minor side character. Wow, super lame.

We agree, preaching to the choir here lol

[mrbeavis19]

Guyyyssss!!! Get over to this link and take 2 seconds to make sure that one of the few good maleshep/Liara fanfics keeps goin strong! If you're unfamiliar with the story, it basically includes a lot of ideas that are common to this thread (i.e. help our blue love take down the SB, lots of emotional turmoil, and explanation for the words that were never said) The poll is currently being dominated by a Gaylo fanfic. This is unnacceptable! Long love the blue goddess!!

[mrbeavis19]

http://www.fanfictio..._of_the_Blades#

[AndroLeonidas]

mrbeavis19 wrote...

http://www.fanfictio..._of_the_Blades#

Have to check it out later

[mrbeavis19]

I've read your's too btw haha. And it's defintely included in those "few" I mentioned above

[AndroLeonidas]

General Stubbs wrote...

JPfanner wrote...

General Stubbs wrote...
I do get what you mean though, Shepard's brain chemistry was probably changed with all that happened to her.
I wonder if they will ever go into detail with it, I mean, she even knows the Prothean language now. Those types of things don't just happen without some sort of major neurological changes.

Shepard can interface with Prothean psionic technology now too, that has to be pretty major.  The asari and rachni are the only races with natural abilities like that, but the closest technology any current race has would be the biotic implants and amps.  And those are really just translating neural impulses into mass effect field manipulating actions. 
The Protheans though had technology that could transfer information, and Vigil tells you that their interstellar communications were based on those beacons.  And they had implants that could record a being's experiences from what you see when you take the Consort's pendant to that disco orb on Eletania.
If any thought went into the ability for Shepard to choose Reave and Dominate as bonus powers then that would indicate something is really weird with Shepard's brain and nervous system too.  Those powers aren't really biotic powers, as in manipulating gravity, they're specialized variations of asari melding and should be exclusive to asari.
Arguably, something weird with Shepard would have to be the case anyway for Project Lazarus to have even brought back anything but a twitching vegetable.

Indeed she can.
The neurological changes Shepard has gone through might be an intricate part of the ME3 storyline, it would definitely involve Liara as well, as she has actually entered the Union with Shepard, she might be able to shed some insight into what has happened (if you romanced her of course. Which, we all have, lol).
Shepard has seemed to "evolve" for lack of a better term since she used the beacons and the cipher, could turn into something interesting, maybe she is the only one who can stop the Reapers now because the weapon to defeat them is based on a more biologically advanced species?

Would make sense for Project Lazarus to involve the use of some possibly morally questionable methods to bring Shepard back.
I wonder if Liara will have anything to do with getting Shepard's nervous systems started again, do Asari even have control over other beings to that great of an extent? They seem to be able to have control to the extent of highly advanced Biofeedback for the most part. I would assume part of how they look at some of the genetic makeup of other species might be through "reading" their specific brainwaves and the children that are created after are based on the variances of brainwaves in the "father" species. Where the variances will serve as the differences in genetic makeup.
Of course that is just a theory, there could be an entirely different way they gather the genetic information to create children.
The unanswered questions involving the changes Shepard has gone through could make for some interesting moments in ME3.

I am assuming you are talking about when Cerberus rebuilds him. If that is the case, why would Cerberus even have Liara help them rebuild him. I find that to be very unlikely given their take on aliens as a whole, and if TIM is actually manipulating her as we believe, why would he let her even close to him during his rebuilding stage?

I don;t believe she had anything to do withCerberus rebuilding him. If that is what we are talking abut here.

[JamieCOTC]

scmadsen wrote...

Changing the subject here. Anyone wish you could have given the Shepard VI program to Liara, to replace Nyxeris, and give Liara something to remind her of you while you're gone and she is buried in her work. I went back there right away but couldn't. I really thought it would of been something sweet.

I would have liked to have at least seen it.  Give it to Liara or to Joker for when he's messing around on the extranet. 

[JPfanner]

AndroLeonidas wrote...
I am assuming you are talking about when Cerberus rebuilds him. If that is the case, why would Cerberus even have Liara help them rebuild him. I find that to be very unlikely given their take on aliens as a whole, and if TIM is actually manipulating her as we believe, why would he let her even close to him during his rebuilding stage?

I don;t believe she had anything to do withCerberus rebuilding him. If that is what we are talking abut here.

TIM is all about using tools to get what he wants done.  He doesn't care what shape those tools are as long as they get done what he wants.  So he has Liara recover the body.  He provides dossiers for recruiting a mostly alien squad for Shepard.  The reasons why Liara should have been necessary to bring back "Shepard" are listed two posts down from the one you quoted.