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[Yeled]

maikanix wrote...

But nonetheless it feels like there IS some kind of reason for her silence.
Honestly I wonder more if it's TIM. After all, he tried to tell you that she was working for the shadow broker, when it's perfectly obvious that she isn't, and, from the comics that he KNOWS she isn't. He knows exactly what she's doing, and yet he lies about it. The must be a reason. Maybe, for example, part of the arrangement was that she keep out of the way of Shepard's mission. That she not rekindle the romance. TIM did, for some reason, make a big deal about keeping past relationships out of the mission.

I agree that "being recorded" isn't the whole story. But I'm hopeful that there is a reason beyond just 'bioware messed up her character." Then again, maybe she is hinting that TIM is observing her, not the shadow broker. And that TIM would take steps were she to rejoin him, or rekindle the romance.

I'm hoping for a conversation in ME3 with TIM about how he forced her to keep out of the way. Yell at him a bit.

The problem here is if they aren't going to include the secret reason in ME2 they probably shouldn't have included it at all.  Its not very good storytelling to be so obscure and subtle without explanation.

[Driveninhifi]

They probably attempt to explain at least some of this in the comic. As was said, that's not very good storytelling. If you want your audience to buy a major character shift you really should show that character development in your story.



There's a lot they could have done with Liara in ME2. Unfortunately the interesting stuff - like showing the internal conflict between her feelings for Shepard and her guilt/mission - won't be applicable once the Shadow Broker is gone so there's no place to really explore it. I'm sure there will be a big catharsis for her once she and Shepard get back together; this should really occur during and after the Shadow Broker mission to feel natural at all. But they really missed a chance in ME2 itself.

[Raanz]

So I suck as a Liara fan...I had no idea that Jillian Murray was the model for Liara. Do I have to turn in my fan card now?

[Raanz]

justinnstuff wrote...

Raanz wrote...

Sorry to change the subject, but I did this sketch and gave it some tone during my lunch hour today.  It's my interpretation of Liara.   More from ME1 I guess.  Let me know what you think

High rez version of the picture below

That's awesome. I wish I had drawing skills.

Thanks I appreciate it.

[Nozybidaj]

Raanz wrote...

Sorry to change the subject, but I did this sketch and gave it some tone during my lunch hour today.  It's my interpretation of Liara.   More from ME1 I guess.  Let me know what you think

High rez version of the picture below

Wow! Very nice!

[maikanix]

Yeled wrote...

The problem here is if they aren't going to include the secret reason in ME2 they probably shouldn't have included it at all.  Its not very good storytelling to be so obscure and subtle without explanation.

There seems to be a lot in ME2 that's unexplained.
But you're right, I'm not saying it's good. Just that it's a definite possibility...
Ostensibly the reason is the one she gave - the shadow broker, the 'debts to pay'. But the reason is unsatisfying, mostly to those of us who romanced her.

Maybe they'll discuss it in the DLC too.

I'm thinking - after listening to the cut dialogue - that they had a horrendous plan for Liara originally, then scrapped it, and had to wait for DLC to fix it up. I'm guessing. Who knows.

[Nozybidaj]

Raanz wrote...

So I suck as a Liara fan...I had no idea that Jillian Murray was the model for Liara. Do I have to turn in my fan card now?

Nah, posting that pic was enough to let you keep it.

[Raanz]

Thanks guys...it would wound me to have to do that. After seeing Jillian though...even more of a Liara fan.

[Driveninhifi]

I don't see how they could ignore it in the DLC and have it feel natural at all.

It does seem like they changed the plans for Liara fairly late in development. The comics were first decided/announced last summer, from what I recall. That seems pretty late to be making large storyline changes. I am glad they didn't keep the original logic of "I can't come with you because I have to analyze this data," since that's a horribly contrived excuse.

Still, the most likely explanation is that they really wanted the ME1 LI interaction to be unsatisfying so the player is likely to move to the new characters. Unfortunately it doesn't really feel natural the way they implemented it, especially in Liara's case.

[Nozybidaj]

Raanz wrote...

Thanks guys...it would wound me to have to do that. After seeing Jillian though...even more of a Liara fan.

I would totally marry her and paint her blue.

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I don't see how they could ignore it in the DLC and have it feel natural at all.
It does seem like they changed the plans for Liara fairly late in development. The comics were first decided/announced last summer, from what I recall. That seems pretty late to be making large storyline changes. I am glad they didn't keep the original logic of "I can't come with you because I have to analyze this data," since that's a horribly contrived excuse.
Still, the most likely explanation is that they really wanted the ME1 LI interaction to be unsatisfying so the player is likely to move to the new characters. Unfortunately it doesn't really feel natural the way they implemented it, especially in Liara's case.

Agreed, it probably was kind of a "last minute" thing.  So long as they make up for it with the most epic Xpac anyone has ever done for a game, it'll be okay in the end.  Doesn't help us much now though. <_<

[screwoffreg]

Ashley/Kaiden's reasoning for being "unattractive" as to push you towards a new romance (and I guess 'cheating') were better than Liara's. They acknowledged your special relationship, but explained that you may have changed or are being controlled, a sense of not knowing who you are anymore. While it is flimsy and heavy handed how Bioware handled the whole "we want you to cheat" option, it was better than Liara.



Liara had NO special dialogue if you were in a romance. She says exactly the same thing to you no matter what. There is little exploration of her reasoning other than the "Shadow Broker sure is a jerk!!!". Even if you find out she found your body with the right dialogue options, the whole interaction is so unsatifsying as to not only leave you wanting to find someone else, but worse losing interest in the character in general.



Of course, for us, we see past that and HOPE there will be some complexity revealed about Liara not yet seen, rather than a character being a victim of time constraints/plot changes...

[Raanz]

While I agree that Liara's resolution in 2 left me a little wanting (since she was my chosen LI from ME1), they handled it about the same as they did with the other ME1 LIs. I would be willing to bet that BW just wanted there to be only one outcome for 2 with your ME1 LI: that is, they can't go with you.

[Nozybidaj]

Raanz wrote...

While I agree that Liara's resolution in 2 left me a little wanting (since she was my chosen LI from ME1), they handled it about the same as they did with the other ME1 LIs. I would be willing to bet that BW just wanted there to be only one outcome for 2 with your ME1 LI: that is, they can't go with you.

Personally I would have prefered that she was "undercover" looking for the Shadow Broker and we never saw or heard from her in game till they do the Xpac and we get a "mysterious" message on the Normandy that leads us to the big reunion.  Then they wouldn't have had to half ass it.

[screwoffreg]

If you want to see how character development in ME 2 should be done, Mordin probably had the most radical changes and most conflicting moral issues. You can actually make him question himself and even change his opinion. I found his mission interesting and really more of the non black and white world I liked Mass Effect to be (rather than the CLEAR GOOD GUY or THIS GUY IS EVIL). Far more realistic and understandable, at least to me.

[Deamon023]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Also, Jillian is very pretty too. She's perfect for Liara. :-)

Liara is much prettier 

[screwoffreg]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Raanz wrote...

While I agree that Liara's resolution in 2 left me a little wanting (since she was my chosen LI from ME1), they handled it about the same as they did with the other ME1 LIs. I would be willing to bet that BW just wanted there to be only one outcome for 2 with your ME1 LI: that is, they can't go with you.

Personally I would have prefered that she was "undercover" looking for the Shadow Broker and we never saw or heard from her in game till they do the Xpac and we get a "mysterious" message on the Normandy that leads us to the big reunion.  Then they wouldn't have had to half ass it.

I actually agree with you.  The Liara is "undercover" or potentially in great danger angle with communication over messages would be tantalizing and sort of cloak and dagger, or interesting in other words.  The current Liara almost immediately turns you off on a primal level and even if you examine her closely it is still a bit unnerving, and not in a "wow, cool" way but in the "eh, she sucks" way.

[bjdbwea]

Perhaps there is more to the fact that Liara was/is the only companion who can be romanced by PCs of the same gender? They were always going on about how Liara actually isn't female, but we all know how ridiculous that sounds, even more so to outsiders. We all remember the media fiasco with ME 1, and of course that left its mark on ME 2. Perhaps in more than one way? Maybe BioWare/EA do see that sort of thing as a problem now, maybe it's only a first step away from the idea of romances in their games in general. People cite DA to prove otherwise, but that game was long in development before changes in leadership came to be. Guess what, the first DA add-on has no romances at all. I mean, it would seem odd that they'd suddenly see problems there, but on the other hand, it could be to a) cut down a significant amount of effort, and make it easier to get ratings and parent's approvals, in order to improve sales to a young(er) audience.

Just another theory, hope I'm wrong. We'll see.

[screwoffreg]

bjdbwea wrote...

Perhaps there is more to the fact that Liara was/is the only companion who can be romanced by PCs of the same gender? They were always going on about how Liara actually isn't female, but we all know how ridiculous that sounds, even more so to outsiders. We all remember the media fiasco with ME 1, and of course that left its mark on ME 2. Perhaps in more than one way? Maybe BioWare/EA do see that sort of thing as a problem now, maybe it's only a first step away from the idea of romances in their games in general. People cite DA to prove otherwise, but that game was long in development before changes in leadership came to be. Guess what, the first DA add-on has no romances at all. I mean, it would seem odd that they'd suddenly see problems there, but on the other hand, it could be to a) cut down a significant amount of effort, and make it easier to get ratings and parent's approvals, in order to improve sales to a young(er) audience.

Just another theory, hope I'm wrong. We'll see.

I hope you are wrong, too.  I think Awakening's lack of romances was addressed by David Gaider as well, saying it was more of a time constraint thing than a purposeful ommiting of people.  Since Dragon Age is not supposed to be continuous (same character) like ME, I hope we get some final resolution to those romances though...

As for Mass Effect, I agree that I feel the icy clouds of some self censorship.  In America, language and violence no one cares about, but hints of sexuality are looked upon with either scorn or they are made so simplistic as to be base pornography.  I think since ME 3 will be the end, Bioware just lets loose and do what MAKES SENSE and is POWERFUL story wise rather than what some suits say.  They have the sales credibility, a good history, "LET THOSE WRITERS GO....WRITE WHAT THEY WANT THAT IS".

[Nozybidaj]

bjdbwea wrote...

Perhaps there is more to the fact that Liara was/is the only companion who can be romanced by PCs of the same gender? They were always going on about how Liara actually isn't female, but we all know how ridiculous that sounds, even more so to outsiders. We all remember the media fiasco with ME 1, and of course that left its mark on ME 2. Perhaps in more than one way? Maybe BioWare/EA do see that sort of thing as a problem now, maybe it's only a first step away from the idea of romances in their games in general. People cite DA to prove otherwise, but that game was long in development before changes in leadership came to be. Guess what, the first DA add-on has no romances at all. I mean, it would seem odd that they'd suddenly see problems there, but on the other hand, it could be to a) cut down a significant amount of effort, and make it easier to get ratings and parent's approvals, in order to improve sales to a young(er) audience.

Just another theory, hope I'm wrong. We'll see.

Well ME2 has certainly steered their main IP away from the more mature relationships as seen in ME1.  DA:O partlyso.  The ME2 relationships didn't feel like they had near the level of emotional impact the ME1 relationships had without even going into the "sex scenes", which by the way DA and ME2 both handled in a sadly comical way.  Though the romance parts leading up to it in DA I felt were handled rather fully and maturely.

Also the gameplay while enjoyable was a clear strategy to draw in more fans and the story overall I didn't feel was really up to BW's previous standards.  I don't know if it is a cler indicator of a change of direction in the style of games BW is going to be producing in the future but the Awakenings expansion certainly gives support to it.

[Driveninhifi]

I think there was definitely some self-censorship with the love scenes. However, I don't think that influenced the Liara interaction. I think it as just a heavy-handed attempt to leave the player in the dark. It's unfortunate, since they've shown they can do good character development. It's just not there in Liara's case.

I think this is at least partially because of the decision to move the story into a comic - but, really, omitting the most logical and natural dialogue options in order to make the player dissatisfied with their original love interest is a pretty terrible way to handle things.