50907 réponses à ce sujet

[screwoffreg]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I think there was definitely some self-censorship with the love scenes. However, I don't think that influenced the Liara interaction. I think it as just a heavy-handed attempt to leave the player in the dark. It's unfortunate, since they've shown they can do good character development. It's just not there in Liara's case.
I think this is at least partially because of the decision to move the story into a comic - but, really, omitting the most logical and natural dialogue options in order to make the player dissatisfied with their original love interest is a pretty terrible way to handle things.

Liara doesn't even show real regret.  You want to know how to really pull heart strings with a break up? Look at Morrigan in DA.  She shows real regret in her face and voice, but she still sticks to her path.  That was a pretty powerful moment for a video game.  People were ticked, but more about how she acted and how it made them feel.  

In contrast, the Liara "experience" just felt...empty.  I am robot, here hack these things for me, oh wait I am a big badass now Shepard (friend or lover).

[MoSa09]

screwoffreg wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

Perhaps there is more to the fact that Liara was/is the only companion who can be romanced by PCs of the same gender? They were always going on about how Liara actually isn't female, but we all know how ridiculous that sounds, even more so to outsiders. We all remember the media fiasco with ME 1, and of course that left its mark on ME 2. Perhaps in more than one way? Maybe BioWare/EA do see that sort of thing as a problem now, maybe it's only a first step away from the idea of romances in their games in general. People cite DA to prove otherwise, but that game was long in development before changes in leadership came to be. Guess what, the first DA add-on has no romances at all. I mean, it would seem odd that they'd suddenly see problems there, but on the other hand, it could be to a) cut down a significant amount of effort, and make it easier to get ratings and parent's approvals, in order to improve sales to a young(er) audience.

Just another theory, hope I'm wrong. We'll see.

As for Mass Effect, I agree that I feel the icy clouds of some self censorship.  In America, language and violence no one cares about, but hints of sexuality are looked upon with either scorn or they are made so simplistic as to be base pornography.  I think since ME 3 will be the end, Bioware just lets loose and do what MAKES SENSE and is POWERFUL story wise rather than what some suits say.  They have the sales credibility, a good history, "LET THOSE WRITERS GO....WRITE WHAT THEY WANT THAT IS".

The funny thing is the dual standards in this issue: Anyone played Dante's Inferno? The girl of the hero is topless in all scenes throughout the game, she even get topless when she is killed in the beginning (which is very hilarious as it makes no real sense except from displaying a digital bosom), and no one cares. And it's an EA game.
And in ME 1, people made a huge fuss about a decent love scene that served another purpose and had a real romanctic background story and was not just there to expose some naked flesh.
Both games are for adutls, and it always amazes me why some games get censored and peole argue about it while other games from the same company don't get any censorship and pass without a fuss in the public

Modifié par MoSa09, 24 février 2010 - 10:07 .

[JPfanner]

I took it that you can have Kelly up to the cabin as a Femshep as a good sign that they aren't going to contrive a situation to exclude Liara from being with another woman.

[Driveninhifi]

Which I why I wonder if they ran out of time. It's literally the same sequence, as you said - and it really shouldn't be. I think it's supposed to be clear that she wants to come, but cannot. They should have gone into WHY in the game, but did not.



Wild speculation, but I feel they wanted to keep the player in the dark about the ME1 love interests. Liara has no reason to be angry at Shepard and clearly still cares very much. So if the player were allowed to really talk to her about their relationship, the only truly natural response she could have would be to admit she does want them back together. Of course, this doesn't fit with the whole "dark 2nd act" thing they wanted, so it was omitted.

If you could ask her about her feelings, what would she say? "Oh, I've moved on..." That really doesn't fit with "I'm doing all this because I couldn't let you go..." It really only makes sense for her to still be in love with Shepard. Sure, she can definitely be afraid of that and could have been trying to repress it somewhat- but I'd have a hard time believe it's not there.

[screwoffreg]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Which I why I wonder if they ran out of time. It's literally the same sequence, as you said - and it really shouldn't be. I think it's supposed to be clear that she wants to come, but cannot. They should have gone into WHY in the game, but did not.

Wild speculation, but I feel they wanted to keep the player in the dark about the ME1 love interests. Liara has no reason to be angry at Shepard and clearly still cares very much. So if the player were allowed to really talk to her about their relationship, the only truly natural response she could have would be to admit she does want them back together. Of course, this doesn't fit with the whole "dark 2nd act" thing they wanted, so it was omitted.
If you could ask her about her feelings, what would she say? "Oh, I've moved on..." That really doesn't fit with "I'm doing all this because I couldn't let you go..." It really only makes sense for her to still be in love with Shepard. Sure, she can definitely be afraid of that and could have been trying to repress it somewhat- but I'd have a hard time believe it's not there.

The Third game is supposedly even darker.  The voice of male Shep described it as such, though he does not know the whole arc yet I am sure.  They said that about Battlestar Galactica's last season and i HATED HATED HATED the ending.  Yes, let us resort to primitivism and lead humanity into horrible disease, low life expectancy, and general anguish!!! Cool story, bro!!!!

Modifié par screwoffreg, 24 février 2010 - 10:15 .

[JamieCOTC]

JPfanner wrote...

I took it that you can have Kelly up to the cabin as a Femshep as a good sign that they aren't going to contrive a situation to exclude Liara from being with another woman.

from Casey Hudson interview ...

"In Mass Effect, as a female Commander Shepard you could have a romance with the female-looking yet asexual asari, Liara. That love story will continue into Mass Effect 2 (and Mass Effect 3) if you had started it in the first game, though things will be a bit rocky between you this time around because you’ve been away for two years.  You’ll be able to conclude that story with Liara in Mass Effect 3, though keep in mind that your romances in Mass Effect 3 will have an impact on how that plays out."

http://www.destructo...ns-163035.phtml

Odd that he calls her "asexual" when the Codex defines Asari as clearly NOT being asexual.  I suppose what he means is that they are asexual in that their mating habits are not the same as other sapient species.  I also wonder if that is a misprint in the last sentence and it really should be, "keep in mind that your romances in Mass Effect 2 will have an impact on how that plays out."

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 24 février 2010 - 10:44 .

[JamieCOTC]

screwoffreg wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

Which I why I wonder if they ran out of time. It's literally the same sequence, as you said - and it really shouldn't be. I think it's supposed to be clear that she wants to come, but cannot. They should have gone into WHY in the game, but did not.

Wild speculation, but I feel they wanted to keep the player in the dark about the ME1 love interests. Liara has no reason to be angry at Shepard and clearly still cares very much. So if the player were allowed to really talk to her about their relationship, the only truly natural response she could have would be to admit she does want them back together. Of course, this doesn't fit with the whole "dark 2nd act" thing they wanted, so it was omitted.
If you could ask her about her feelings, what would she say? "Oh, I've moved on..." That really doesn't fit with "I'm doing all this because I couldn't let you go..." It really only makes sense for her to still be in love with Shepard. Sure, she can definitely be afraid of that and could have been trying to repress it somewhat- but I'd have a hard time believe it's not there.

The Third game is supposedly even darker.  The voice of male Shep described it as such, though he does not know the whole arc yet I am sure.  They said that about Battlestar Galactica's last season and i HATED HATED HATED the ending.  Yes, let us resort to primitivism and lead humanity into horrible disease, low life expectancy, and general anguish!!! Cool story, bro!!!!

I'm pretty sure Liara is in love w/ Shepard regardless.  Also, it would not surprise me at all if she became a secondary, (albeit sympathetic and tragic), villain in ME3. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 24 février 2010 - 10:45 .

[JamieCOTC]

double post

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 24 février 2010 - 10:41 .

[Sharn01]

Shep making bad choices that do not make sense started from the moment the game put you in control.



Mirnada just killed a guy: Well, no sense worrying about it, or even asking about it later to find out if she was telling the truth.



So, your unit was wiped out on Akuze: Well, no point bringing up the fact the Cerberus was the organization that wiped them out.



TIM wants me to work for him: Well, no sense in even trying to see what the Council or Alliance have to say, no point in having the crew arrested and taking over the investigation on my own terms, its not like the whole point of Spectre's is to go places the Fleets can't while keeping a low profile or anything anywhere near along those lines. I think I will just work for this terrorist organization that is responsible for more death's then the collector's, Saren, and the geth combined.



Do we even know what the collector's goal was, where they making a Reaper to fling at the Citidel with just it and their own ship, something that already failed when it was supported with an inside man and an entire fleet of geth?



Unfortunately Liara is just another weak example of writing in a long list of weak writing for ME2. It is just unfortunate because one of the places where ME2 seems to shine the most is with the stories for the squadmates on the Normandy and we think of LIara as a squadmate still. In reality, she just suffered from the same thing everything else in the game suffered from that did not directly revolve around the ME2 squadmates.

[screwoffreg]

Liara being a villain would be quite a turn. Perhaps overtaking the Shadow Broker itself? That would be pretty wild stuff. The drama...the anger...the broken hearts and tears...



Make it so!!!!!

[Movodor]

"Asexual yet female-looking." Uhuh.

Dodging any meaningful details is just embarrasing at this point.

For Casey, not us. Maybe something's lost in translation, or I'm just not getting the meaning of the words, but asari are anything but asexual.

[Morgalne]

Look I better be able to have a child with Liara in the third one and as a squad mate. You better make this good. And no lame PG 13 stuff. Make it really lovey dovey and we'll be good I support this thread. Liara ftw. Oh, and is it just me or does anyone wonder who Liara's other parent is?

[stormrain]

JamieCOTC wrote...

from Casey Hudson interview ...

"In Mass Effect, as a female Commander Shepard you could have a romance with the female-looking yet asexual asari, Liara. That love story will continue into Mass Effect 2 (and Mass Effect 3) if you had started it in the first game, though things will be a bit rocky between you this time around because you’ve been away for two years.  You’ll be able to conclude that story with Liara in Mass Effect 3, though keep in mind that your romances in Mass Effect 3 will have an impact on how that plays out."

http://www.destructo...ns-163035.phtml

Odd that he calls her "asexual" when the Codex defines Asari as clearly NOT being asexual.  I suppose what he means is that they are asexual in that their mating habits are not the same as other sapient species.  I also wonder if that is a misprint in the last sentence and it really should be, "keep in mind that your romances in Mass Effect 2 will have an impact on how that plays out."

I think "omnisexual" would be a better term to use to describe asari. Like Captain Jack Harkness. Bad Example.

The last line is most likely a misprint, unless Bioware decides to give us even more love interests. Which would irritate me to no end. There are 9 LI's so far (not counting the Kelly/Consort fling and Shiala/Parasini flirtation) Shepard does not need anymore people trying to jump his/her bones. What BW needs to do is flesh out the romances that we already have and give them all satisfying endings for ME3.

[bjdbwea]

Still funny how Mr. Hudson claims things would be "a bit rocky" in ME 2. What things, exactly?

And that other dodging around is exactly what I meant. I does seem somehow as if they view the Liara relationship as a liability.

[jlb524]

screwoffreg wrote...

The Third game is supposedly even darker.  The voice of male Shep described it as such, though he does not know the whole arc yet I am sure.

Yeah, I bet all your squad mates (including Shepard) can die in it.

Oh wait, they already did that

Anyways, if the third game is even 'darker' (which is my code word for 'suckier') then I'm going to be an even more pissed off fan come ME3.  I'm already bitter enough over ME2 and some other crap that's been going on.

[Confused Echo]

It totally depends on her character. In the first game, I really liked her. In the second game? She's a bit of a beyatch.

But, considering during my firstplaythrough of both games, I made/kept her as my love interest, I'd like for her to return in the third. Just less....****y.

[JPfanner]

I think he was just playing PR person and emphasizing the reproductive aspect of a sexual relationship to downplay the obvious gender of both parties. The fact that asari are parthogenic means as much as whether a human has reached menopause when you're talking about the relationship from any standpoint other than a potential to procreate.

Given the technology in Mass Effect, parthogenesis should be available for human females as well. It wouldn't suddenly change their gender or sexual identity though. No more than artificial insemination does now.

[Nozybidaj]

screwoffreg wrote...

Liara being a villain would be quite a turn. Perhaps overtaking the Shadow Broker itself? That would be pretty wild stuff. The drama...the anger...the broken hearts and tears...

Make it so!!!!!

Uh, no thanks.  That is about the worst thing they could do far as I am concerned.  That would pretty much ensure I never buy another BW product.

[screwoffreg]

Nozybidaj wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

Liara being a villain would be quite a turn. Perhaps overtaking the Shadow Broker itself? That would be pretty wild stuff. The drama...the anger...the broken hearts and tears...

Make it so!!!!!

Uh, no thanks.  That is about the worst thing they could do far as I am concerned.  That would pretty much ensure I never buy another BW product.

Well if the game is darker, they need to give it that EXTREME feel.  With that said, with so many damn characters I really don't want ANY new ones in ME 3.  Just flesh out who we have already...with 9 LI's alone that is going to be a hell of  alot of variable endings unless they do the typical Bioware "text ending epilogue".

"I am close to the EDGE"
-Conrad Verner

[Driveninhifi]

Well, ME3 will have the Reapers laying waste to the galaxy, which is pretty dark. Hopefully they don't go for EXTREME because that would be lame.



Why would Liara become a villain in ME3? That doesn't make any sense. She clearly cares for Shepard and there really isn't a way to explain her turning against the Commander. The main enemy will be the Reapers and there's no way she'd work with them.

Now, if they do something as monumentally retarded as having your love interest indoctrinated and you having to save them I will not play the game. That's about the laziest plot twist ever and has been done to death in RPGs (especially JRPGS).

Her becoming the Shadow Broker is also pretty lame - it's essentially writing her out of the story. We're also lead to believe the Shadow Broker is up to some very nefarious things and it doesn't make sense for her to want to continue that. It would be much better if she joins up with the Normandy crew - it fits her character to want to do so once she feels she's absolved her guilt (or to have Shepard help her through her guilt on the Normandy).

[Sigilius]

I don't think they'll go for the "Dark and edgy" thing again. This always happens with series, especially trilogies. They're like people. Their beginning is generally the lightest and most innocent installment, followed by the "dark and edgy" teenage kind of area in between, before finally maturing in the final piece as the ultimate product of the original excitement and edgy-ness: epic. Mass Effect 3 will go for the "epic" factor, since it's the final installment, the ultimate battle, head-on against the Reaper fleet, and they can't go back to the "sunshine and bunny" days of ME1 (As Joker put it), but to conclude on an angsty note would be stupid. Epic is a hard thing to do, and it is best as a concluding chapter to a great trilogy.



As for Liara, I am certain she will play an integral part in ME3. There's no doubht about that. She's the only "unkillable" NPC, she loves Shepard no matter what, and she's the best candidate for a returning squadmate and love interest. Why would they bring back Miranda and Jack (Characters who are no longer needed) if they won't already focus on the original characters, most importantly Liara?

[Driveninhifi]

I'm curious how they will handle relationships in ME3. Some Shepards will have a preset relationship and no immediate conflict. It would be really cool to see a relationship go past the initial attraction stage into something more mature. I'd love to see something like the LI moving into the Captain's Cabin and how that impacts the crew. Do you favor your LI more than the rest of the crew? They'd be sure to notice. When the chips are down do you rescue them first? Do they kind of resent that?



Think about someone who had no ME1 LI, and then romanced Jack. If Jack's still alive, she's with the first person she's probably ever loved or trusted. So there's no way she's leaving the Normandy - she'd probably follow Shepard anywhere and horribly murder anyone who messed with Shepard.

If Miranda renounces Cerberus, she has nowhere to go. Plus she probably wants to make genetically perfect babies with Shepard.

Tali's role should probably shift depending on her status. If not a LI, she could be an admiral - otherwise she stays with Shepard.

Thane, unfortunately, is probably dying.

Garrus and Jacob is probably on the Normandy regardless of their love status.



Personally, I think it makes sense for the ME1 LIs to rejoin the crew early in ME3. The arc of them and Shepard re-establishing their relationship shouldn't be instant, but it should be considerably shorter than the normal romance arc from the earlier games. I'd think Liara's would be the shortest, since she basically has to have been waiting/hoping for Shepard to come back. Ashley/Kaidan have a harder time, since they had no idea Shepard was alive - this is a new idea to them.



But really, the key would be to make a believable, mature relationship between Shepard and his/her lover. They are together, everyone knows it, now how does that change the story, the crew dynamic, outsiders' reactions? This is something no game's really attempted and it could make a very compelling element of the story if done well.

[bjdbwea]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I'm curious how they will handle relationships in ME3.

Right now, my bet would be on "simplistic and uninspired". Or not at all. Again.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Yeah, right now my faith in Bioware is rock bottom. They took the "troubled second romance act" as "great, we can ditch them and play it off as troubled". I wouldnt be at all surprised to see them take "final resolution of the romance" to simply be "a repeat of act 1". Basically, even if Liara is a squadmate in ME3, the romance could still be a disappointment.

Of course even thats shaky right now. Bioware might figure "resolving" the romance can be finished in another sideline NPC/cameo role.

Provided things remain unchanged (and we get no DLC featuring the ME1 LIs, actually giving them a worthwhile role) I wont have much faith in Bioware resolving this well at all.

Of course thats natural considering ME2 is probably my biggest disappointment from a video game ever.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 25 février 2010 - 01:34 .