50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Luke_Shepard]

Hey, haven't posted in here in a long time now, keep getting caught up in school work and stuff. Kinda disappointed about the Bioware competition thing, was hoping it would be something more interesting and the fact i'm in Ireland means I've basically hyped it all up for nothing. Still, Redemption #4 is out soon.

Also that art is fantastic, Liara's look is heartbreaking but sums up brilliantly what she was going through and her struggle between TIM and the SB, with Shep in the middle of it.

Modifié par Luke_Shepard, 29 mars 2010 - 10:06 .

[Shadowcat101]

scmadsen wrote...

all the long stuff you wrote.

 totaly agree, and very well thought out. I sort of tried to convey that a bit in my pictures.

[scmadsen]

Shadowcat101 wrote...

 totaly agree, and very well thought out. I sort of tried to convey that a bit in my pictures.

Your imagery speaks to what Liara has gone thru, and is still going thru. It's done well.

yorkj86 wrote...

This is well-written, and I think mostly correct, but I'm concerned that Bioware might view this as a reason to cut off any romantic interaction between Shepard and Liara in (edit) ME3; or, they might view this as a reason to turn Liara's character around even more, making her someone completely unrecognizable (incompetently) from Liara in ME1.

Well, it's a reason. We might not agree, but I feel better "understanding" the reason, even if it's only something we all came up with.

All we can do, is hope that Liara is not sidelined...or worse...but we can hope, that at the very least, Shepard and Liara can be together, after all this is over.

I hope BioWare listens to us, and gives up what we want. We want a Liara DLC that allows us to talk to her, to seek forgiveness, and tell her she has nothing to feel worried about. We want to fix the relationship and move it forward. And we want to help Liara deal with her demons. Both Cerberus and the Shadow Broker.

Modifié par scmadsen, 29 mars 2010 - 10:48 .

[Blansten]

Shadowcat: simply amazing and heart wrenching



scmadsen: Brilliant and I pretty much agree with all of it



Yorkj: There are probably disappointments ahead, pretty much guaranteed but I do believe that Bioware will hold true to what they have said and have the romance pick up again in ME3 (I don't feel that kind of confidence in the mergence of a Liara centric DLC)

[scmadsen]

Blansten wrote...

Brilliant and I pretty much agree with all of it.

Thank you.

[bjdbwea]

Well, you've seen their newest idea. There is some outspoken criticism now, but I think they anticipated that and write it off as acceptable losses compared to what they think they'll gain. Just like with any old fans who might not buy ME 3.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 29 mars 2010 - 11:07 .

[JaylaClark]

scmadsen wrote...

Shadowcat101 wrote...

 totaly agree, and very well thought out. I sort of tried to convey that a bit in my pictures.

Your imagery speaks to what Liara has gone thru, and is still going thru. It's done well.

yorkj86 wrote...

This is well-written, and I think mostly correct, but I'm concerned that Bioware might view this as a reason to cut off any romantic interaction between Shepard and Liara in (edit) ME3; or, they might view this as a reason to turn Liara's character around even more, making her someone completely unrecognizable (incompetently) from Liara in ME1.

Well, it's a reason. We might not agree, but I feel better "understanding" the reason, even if it's only something we all came up with.

All we can do, is hope that Liara is not sidelined...or worse...but we can hope, that at the very least, Shepard and Liara can be together, after all this is over.

I hope BioWare listens to us, and gives up what we want. We want a Liara DLC that allows us to talk to her, to seek forgiveness, and tell her she has nothing to feel worried about. We want to fix the relationship and move it forward. And we want to help Liara deal with her demons. Both Cerberus and the Shadow Broker.

I agree with your tl/Dr (the capital D is for DID read) post a few pages ago, except that I still think that it's shaky about the 'letting Liara go because of her duties' reasoning.  (Though unlike some in this thread, yes I AM looking at you Stubbs , I'm glad that you agree with me that getting Joker off the damn ship is Shepard's duty.  She doesn't go and get him to the escape pod, she's not a member of the military, let alone a commanding officer.  End of story.)

And I think we still needed some response more caring than 'my mission is important'.  Hell, even the fireworks that you say 'I couldn't either' would cause would be something.  But this is just my reasoning to match it up with the Ash/Kaidan LI situation, where they blow up at Shepard then later apologize by mail... I think, again, it's designed to be either 'driven into the arms of a new love' or 'lovers apart', depending on the player's choice, and ... they bork that immediately with us knowing where Liara is at all times, but not changing her behavior beyond the one little scene.

Now ... again, if they put in a longer distance between the missions for Liara, and have her acting cold the whole time?  Mission accomplished... and also, I'd again like ... something more regretful in that scene.  Still *sighs* you've managed to do a decent rationalization for it being like it is... and if we do get a better response with the DLC, I'm fully okay.with it.  (Well almost okay.)

[scmadsen]

JaylaClark wrote...

I agree with your tl/Dr (the capital D is for DID read) post a few pages ago, except that I still think that it's shaky about the 'letting Liara go because of her duties' reasoning.  (Though unlike some in this thread, yes I AM looking at you Stubbs , I'm glad that you agree with me that getting Joker off the damn ship is Shepard's duty.  She doesn't go and get him to the escape pod, she's not a member of the military, let alone a commanding officer.  End of story.)

And I think we still needed some response more caring than 'my mission is important'.  Hell, even the fireworks that you say 'I couldn't either' would cause would be something.  But this is just my reasoning to match it up with the Ash/Kaidan LI situation, where they blow up at Shepard then later apologize by mail... I think, again, it's designed to be either 'driven into the arms of a new love' or 'lovers apart', depending on the player's choice, and ... they bork that immediately with us knowing where Liara is at all times, but not changing her behavior beyond the one little scene.

Now ... again, if they put in a longer distance between the missions for Liara, and have her acting cold the whole time?  Mission accomplished... and also, I'd again like ... something more regretful in that scene.  Still *sighs* you've managed to do a decent rationalization for it being like it is... and if we do get a better response with the DLC, I'm fully okay.with it.  (Well almost okay.)

Well, I know my posts tend to be long, but it's a forum, not a chatroom. Anyway...

So yea, it is Shepard's duty to get Joker off the ship. That's who Shepard is. Shepard tells Liara to go, because Shepard loves Liara and doesn't want her to stay behind and be hurt. Knowing Liara is safe, is enough.

Should Shepard of maybe left Joker to die...yea, but then we wouldn't have ME2 the way the writers wanted it. This also allows Shepard to feel terrible about what Liara had to go thru, what Shepard put Liara thru.

Shepard needs to apologize to Liara, and beg to be forgiven for what she was put thru. Liara shouldn't be the one feeling bad here. Shepard needs to promise Liara, never again. They will be together forever, no matter what. This allows her to come be on the Normandy, share Shepard's cabin/bed and be a squadmate again.

And I agree, that maybe, having Liara get mad at Shepard, would have been better, but it's kind of not like her. It is perfectly logical that Liara would get mad though. Shepard would say something like. "I couldn't let you go either." to which Liara replies "But you did Shepard, you let me go, and you died because of it, and look what I had to go thru for you. How can you tell me that?" An email later on to patch things up, and a line reading something like..."Just come back to me this time...don't make me come looking for you again."

I guess that doesn't work as well though, because for one, Liara is far too sweet to be mad at Shepard, nor that selfish. Also, you can see Liara again, you could go back to her, and try to work things out, but they don't want us to yet. It would seem even more odd, to be able to see her again, after the email. Which, you can't see Ashley or Kaidan after. Besides, having the same angry reaction, would seem a bit copy/paste.

So anyway...you are right, and I just tried to rationalize what they gave us to work with. That's really all we can do. I'm a little surprised everyone seems to agree with me.

[JPfanner]

JaylaClark wrote...

(Though unlike some in this thread, yes I AM looking at you Stubbs , I'm glad that you agree with me that getting Joker off the damn ship is Shepard's duty. She doesn't go and get him to the escape pod, she's not a member of the military, let alone a commanding officer. End of story.)

I disagree completely. It's a military vessel, not a preschool class trip. Shepard's job is to give orders and Joker's job is to follow those orders. The vessel is under fire, it is a crippled starship in space, Shepard gives the order to evacuate and Joker chooses to disregard that order. Joker not only exercises poor judgement in remaining at the helm, but he also does so in direct violation of an order. He is given way too much slack for his lack of military discipline to begin with, but he is allowed that because he does his job well and is "cool". By not following that order though he is simply crossing a line.

He should have never been given the option to leave the Alliance and join Cerberus. Because he should have been court martialled and spent the rest of his life rotting in prison.

Shepard going to save Joker was all heroic, but it was totally unnecessary and for something that Joker would have been shot for doing in a combat situation. And when you meet up with, he's not the least contrite or appreciative. He brags about joining a terrorist organization because the Alliance hurt his feelings by not letting him pilot another ship. Wow, big surprise there, people on military vessels generally want the crew to follow orders.

[scmadsen]

I do agree with wanting a "F*** Joker, lets get out of here, love." line. And yes, Joker should of been left to die, but also, Shepard is a hero, and heroes are stupid sometimes. I was upset with Joker for not even saying he was sorry or anything, or really thanking Shepard for saving his sorry ass in the first place. I atleast hope, that Joker broke alot of bones when being tossed into the lifepod. I expect my Shepard to have an "oops" moment and step on his foot or grab him a little too hard. You know, like once a month.

Modifié par scmadsen, 30 mars 2010 - 01:10 .

[scmadsen]

DP

Modifié par scmadsen, 30 mars 2010 - 01:10 .

[JPfanner]

scmadsen wrote...
And I agree, that maybe, having Liara get mad at Shepard, would have been better, but it's kind of not like her. It is perfectly logical that Liara would get mad though. Shepard would say something like. "I couldn't let you go either." to which Liara replies "But you did Shepard, you let me go, and you died because of it, and look what I had to go thru for you. How can you tell me that?"

For myself, going to save Joker was no different than when Shepard leaves the Normandy on a mission.  On any of those missions Shepard, or even Liara could be killed.  It's just an accepted part of the circumstances of their relationship and they both understand that.  So I don't feel in any way that I was letting Liara go by just doing something along the lines of what Shepard does for a job.  Yeah, Shepard screwed up in the actual execution of the escape and died, but my Shepard died with Liara's name on her lips and getting back to Liara was the most important thing for her.
Shepard and Liara were facing the constant threat of death, not letting go was the entire basis of their relationship in those circumstances.
In general, I think the problem is that ME2 isn't a movie or book.  It is a game, and Shepard is the avatar of the player.  Anything the player isn't told or shown is simply bad execution.  With everything else you can get a codex entry to fill in the spots, but there is no Liara Relationship codex.

[JaylaClark]

JPfanner wrote...

JaylaClark wrote...
(Though unlike some in this thread, yes I AM looking at you Stubbs , I'm glad that you agree with me that getting Joker off the damn ship is Shepard's duty. She doesn't go and get him to the escape pod, she's not a member of the military, let alone a commanding officer. End of story.)

I disagree completely. It's a military vessel, not a preschool class trip. Shepard's job is to give orders and Joker's job is to follow those orders. The vessel is under fire, it is a crippled starship in space, Shepard gives the order to evacuate and Joker chooses to disregard that order. Joker not only exercises poor judgement in remaining at the helm, but he also does so in direct violation of an order. He is given way too much slack for his lack of military discipline to begin with, but he is allowed that because he does his job well and is "cool". By not following that order though he is simply crossing a line.
He should have never been given the option to leave the Alliance and join Cerberus. Because he should have been court martialled and spent the rest of his life rotting in prison.
Shepard going to save Joker was all heroic, but it was totally unnecessary and for something that Joker would have been shot for doing in a combat situation. And when you meet up with, he's not the least contrite or appreciative. He brags about joining a terrorist organization because the Alliance hurt his feelings by not letting him pilot another ship. Wow, big surprise there, people on military vessels generally want the crew to follow orders.

Wow, rotting in prision for a bad decision.  Tell me how you REALLY feel about this.  Maybe he should be charged with murder, too?  Or Liara should be forcing HIM into that coffee cup for killing her love?

The Alliance, though, is the analogue of the Navy.  In the Navy the commanding officer assumes full responsibility for the conduct and well-being of those under him or her.  Complete and total responsibility.  It's why there's such a thing as a captain's mast for discipline, among other things.  It's why SEAL teams, when they deploy, are supposed to have the CO of the entire unit in the field with them -- possibly leading it from the front, but definitely not back at the base.  Because everyone from a Seaman's Apprentice to the XO is the responsibility of that one person at the top.

So yeah, maybe it would be possible to bring Joker up on charges -- my Shepard probably would do a captain's mast on the subject after her mandatory court martial for loss of a vessel was settled.  (I'm pretty sure it's mandatory, you have to be cleared of misconduct officially even if it's pretty obvious you did nothing wrong.)  But there's a real s#!tload of a difference between bringing a guy up on charges after saving him and leaving him to die.

In the US Navy, in fact, I'm damn sure any CO who did that would lose their commission, be dishonorably discharged, and thrown in Leavenworth.  As well they should be.  Am I being a bit riled up about this subject?  Not nearly as much as I should be.

[scmadsen]

JPfanner wrote...

scmadsen wrote...
And I agree, that maybe, having Liara get mad at Shepard, would have been better, but it's kind of not like her. It is perfectly logical that Liara would get mad though. Shepard would say something like. "I couldn't let you go either." to which Liara replies "But you did Shepard, you let me go, and you died because of it, and look what I had to go thru for you. How can you tell me that?"

For myself, going to save Joker was no different than when Shepard leaves the Normandy on a mission.  On any of those missions Shepard, or even Liara could be killed.  It's just an accepted part of the circumstances of their relationship and they both understand that.  So I don't feel in any way that I was letting Liara go by just doing something along the lines of what Shepard does for a job.  Yeah, Shepard screwed up in the actual execution of the escape and died, but my Shepard died with Liara's name on her lips and getting back to Liara was the most important thing for her.
Shepard and Liara were facing the constant threat of death, not letting go was the entire basis of their relationship in those circumstances.
In general, I think the problem is that ME2 isn't a movie or book.  It is a game, and Shepard is the avatar of the player.  Anything the player isn't told or shown is simply bad execution.  With everything else you can get a codex entry to fill in the spots, but there is no Liara Relationship codex.

True, but I took Liara with me on every single mission in ME1 after picking her up. By letting go, I mean, Shepard tells Liara to leave, get in the lifepod, and go. If Liara and Shepard had both matched up to the bridge and both threw Joker into the pod, then it wouldn't be like Shepard let Liara go.

[JPfanner]

JaylaClark wrote...
Wow, rotting in prision for a bad decision.  Tell me how you REALLY feel about this.  Maybe he should be charged with murder, too?  Or Liara should be forcing HIM into that coffee cup for killing her love?

It wasn't a bad decision.  He willingly chose to disobey a direct order while under fire.  Tell me what that is actually called in military terms and why it wouldn't result in Joker's imprisonment.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

Shadowcat101 wrote...

So here is what I was working on… finally. tried a different style. Ended up making two versions. The first one was how I planned it to be. But after finishing it I didn’t really like it that much. So I cut some stuff out and added a little for the second one. More simple, but I think looks better.
 

Bigger
 

Bigger

I think the second one would be perfecto if you included the atmosphere venting from Shep's suit.  And maybe the planet. Maybe.

[Flamewielder]

Hey Liara fans,
yorkj86 suggested I post a copy of a comment I made in the Samara thread but could also be of interest to you guys:

yorkj86 wrote...
Well, if Bioware is looking for another way to take a dump on poor Liara's character, they might as well keep going, amirite?
I can't stand what they did to Liara in ME2.

To temporise, I would argue that Liara's character was not elaborated much on in ME1. We DO know that she's ackward around people, she's considered a young adult among the asari, she's been alone on archeological digs and dealt with the odd bandit/pirate/slaver/wildlife with her biotics.

We know she admired her mother who, even endoctrinated, showed a very pragmatic and willfull personality (remember the way remained unimpressed by Saren's angry tantrum after Eden Prime). Liara probably has more in common with her mother than what was apparent in ME1. After all, she had limited prior contact with humans before and her ackwardness around Shepard did not allow any of the inner steel to shine through...

I think we (human players) have kind of let the curvy feminine appearance of asari mislead us as to their real personality. In a mono-gendered species, we cannot expect all asari to act "feminine". The asari no doubt have become adept at taking advantage of this popular misconception (no mind control required here...). Samara is a great reminder that asari may look feminine but behave in a "gender-neutral" or even "masculine" way.

Males look at asari and see a (pleasant-looking) female. Their common first reflex is to treat them as such. The stronger the gender bias is in the mind of the male, the more effect it will have on his attitude towards asari. In return, asari having been in contact with males from other species for centuries, have learned to adjust their attitude/posture/body language to "fit" and take advantage of this state of affairs.

Consider:
1) a tall burly human policeman/constable looks and acts like a tall burly policeman/constable.
2) an tall burly asari police officer/constable acts like a tall burly police officer/constable BUT looks like this hot blue babe to a human...

We (as humans) expect the asari to act like whatever female stereotype our culture has programmed us with. Asari have no such gender-based stereotypes. Some asari will think and act like rough sailors, soldiers, samurai, knight or any other "macho" archetype you can imagine (Matriarch Aethyta illustrates what I'm talking about, she's got a very "male" attitude towards sex, for instance; human females are not often THAT casual on that topic).

If you're a male player playing a maleShep and thought Aethyta attractive, consider for a moment that Aethyta might see herself as the "male" when she's checking out Shepard's glutes... Unsettling, isn't it? I bet it would probably spoil it for a few guys out there...

So, keeping all this in mind, I would argue that Liara's character may not have changed that much between ME1 and ME2 but that we are only discovering aspects of her personality we did not bother exploring in ME1. Her character in ME2 does appear compatible with the persona displayed in the comics, although that could be considered "meta-gaming" by some.

When I first played ME1 a couple years back, Liara struck me as an under-written character. I felt too many of her lines delved into the asari species info and not enough into herself. By contrast, Ashley talked about her family, her relationship with her dad, her shared training experience with the same drill sergeant as Shepard's, etc... Ashley is human, so the writers didn't feel like they had to describe human mating practices or other cultural trivia. It kinda gave a bit of an unfair advantage to Ashley, as a potential LI for maleShep.

I'm eager to see what direction Liara will take in ME3, now that her dialog can focus on herself instead of serving as an encyclopedia on asari customs...

Enjoy!

[JaylaClark]

JPfanner wrote...

JaylaClark wrote...
Wow, rotting in prision for a bad decision.  Tell me how you REALLY feel about this.  Maybe he should be charged with murder, too?  Or Liara should be forcing HIM into that coffee cup for killing her love?

It wasn't a bad decision.  He willingly chose to disobey a direct order while under fire.  Tell me what that is actually called in military terms and why it wouldn't result in Joker's imprisonment.

Insubordination.  Defined as willfully disobeying a lawful and direct order.  (EDIT -- didn't say why it wouldn't, because it would take a sympathetic board to get him out of it, and that is an understatement.)

Still, I'm looking for what the term is for what willfully leaving behind a crew member to die is, beyond 'reprehensible'.  I recall the insinuation in more than a few Richard Marcinko books that it results in immediate relieve of command and court martial, but I honestly think that we don't have that option because Mac and Drew thought it was beyond the pale themselves.

Modifié par JaylaClark, 30 mars 2010 - 01:34 .

[scmadsen]

@ Jayla, JP, & Stubbs

Shepard is a Specter, and can get away with nearly anything. Losing the Normandy, and leaving Joker to die, wouldn't be a big deal. Shepard can hide behind the Council, if the Alliance dared to bring this to a trial. I mean Shepard could stand in court and shoot the judges and get away with it, claiming the authority of the Council.

But it is true, that Shepard is fully responsible for the lives of the crew. That doesn't excuse what Joker does, and Joker should of been punished. However, Shepard does the duty expected of any Captain, saving the crew first. Joker ignores orders and gets his Captain killed.

Paragon, save Joker. Renegade, leave him to die and save yourself. Both are choices that should of been up to the player.

Modifié par scmadsen, 30 mars 2010 - 01:36 .

[JaylaClark]

scmadsen wrote...

@ Jayla

Shepard is a Specter, and can get away with nearly anything. Losing the Normandy, and leaving Joker to die, wouldn't be a big deal. Shepard can hide behind the Council, if the Alliance dared to bring this to a trial. I mean Shepard could stand in court and shoot the judges and get away with it, claiming the authority of the Council.

But it is true, that Shepard is fully responsible for the lives of the crew. That doesn't excuse what Joker does, and Joker should of been punished. However, Shepard does the duty expected of any Captain, saving the crew first. Joker ignores orders and gets his Captain killed.

Paragon, save Joker. Renegade, leave him to die and save yourself. Both are choices that should of been up to the player.

*sighs*

You're right -- though I really think that Liara (and most certainly Ash and Kaidan, whoever's present) would think much less of Shepard if Shepard took that Renegade position, and Shep would definitely lose her Alliance commission because of it.  But in the end, the decision gets locked down because of what you said earlier, the story has to proceed down that one path because it's too much of a branch otherwise.

I also think that leaving Joker to die would supplant 'killing Shiala' as the worst Renegade option in both games.  Killing an unresisting prisoner versus not saving one of your own crew... both are practically indisputably evil in my brain.  (This is an opinion, of course.)