50907 réponses à ce sujet

[scmadsen]

I edited that to direct it toward the three of you, it felt unfair to point it just to you, as it was really meant for all three of you, since we all were posting on this subject.

[JPfanner]

Yeah, I'm not arguing or anything just for the sake of it.  I really do believe that what Joker did in disobeying that order completely mitigates any responsibility Shepard has to him.  Then it is beyond insulting how Joker reacts when you're reunited.
The closest comparison I can find offhand is Article 90.  Which would have Joker dishonorably discharged, forfeiting all benefits, and then getting 5 years in prison.  If it was considered "time of war" then he could get anything up to death.
There is no need to go to Joker if he was following orders.  He creates that entire situation himself, and then NEVER expresses any regret or appreciation for what Shepard did.  I wouldn't be quite as annoyed if he at least thanked you and made some recognition that he needs to maintain some discipline on a military ship.

[bjdbwea]

JaylaClark wrote...

In the US Navy, in fact, I'm damn sure any CO who did that would lose their commission, be dishonorably discharged, and thrown in Leavenworth.  As well they should be.  Am I being a bit riled up about this subject?  Not nearly as much as I should be.

It's not just leaving him to die though, is it? If Joker doesn't follow a direct order and behaves very irrational, there has to be a point when you can't expect from anyone to throw their own live away. The question is if the situation was already dire enough, but the little fact that Shepard did die, proves that it indeed was. It was of course a heroic thing to go anyway, no doubt about that, but I doubt Shepard would've been punished otherwise.

Well, I don't blame Joker, but the bad idea of destroying the Normandy and killing Shepard, is just a lazy plot device. Completely unnecessary. <_<

Modifié par bjdbwea, 30 mars 2010 - 01:46 .

[scmadsen]

I blame Joker for it, and for Liara being in pain...Joker has alot to makeup for. If he had shown any feelings over the matter, maybe he could be forgiven. They will never write it in, or allow it, but Joker should be punished, he needs to be grounded for the rest of his life. Take away the one thing that matters to him. Killing him is too easy.

[bjdbwea]

He even has the nerve to yell at Shepard for abandoning him when the collectors attacked (hey Joker, the game left me no choice but to cram my whole team into the shuttle!) . Even then you can't really put him in his place. It's another of the numerous situations in the game where Shepard just takes it, and no one really cares about what answer you choose.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 30 mars 2010 - 01:57 .

[JaylaClark]

bjdbwea wrote...

He even has the nerve to yell at Shepard for abandoning him when the collectors attacked (hey Joker, the game left me no choice but to cram my whole team into the shuttle!) . Even then you can't really put him in his place. It's another of the numerous situations in the game where Shepard just takes it, and no one really cares about what answer you choose.

Wha-wa-wait, back your truck up here...

He yells?

I didn't get that response, Miranda is giving him s#!t for losing the whole crew at one time and I tell her to back off, there's more to that scene?

[JPfanner]

JaylaClark wrote...
I also think that leaving Joker to die would supplant 'killing Shiala' as the worst Renegade option in both games.  Killing an unresisting prisoner versus not saving one of your own crew... both are practically indisputably evil in my brain.  (This is an opinion, of course.)

For myself, "recruiting" Morinth is in a tier of evil above and beyond anything else.  I listen to Nef's journal and her mother and then to do something like that is just makes absolutely no kind of sense to me, even trying to look at it from perspectives I don't share.  It's just plain evil and really poor judgement to boot.

[scmadsen]

To be fair, and perfectly honest. I'd pick Liara over anyone else. It could of been someone other then Joker, and I'd of rather ran off with Liara, then save them. I play Paragon too. If we are forced to save someone or risk the lives of the rest of the crew in ME3, and who we have to save is Liara, I'll save her.

I know it's the "bad" thing to do.

I would love it, and laugh my ass off, if Liara gets pissed at Joker when she sees him. A nice biotic lift and throw combo, sending him flying from the bridge and down the hall into the CIC. My Shepard would be like. "EDI, you have the helm." While stepping over Joker's body.

Modifié par scmadsen, 30 mars 2010 - 02:20 .

[JaylaClark]

JPfanner wrote...

Yeah, I'm not arguing or anything just for the sake of it.  I really do believe that what Joker did in disobeying that order completely mitigates any responsibility Shepard has to him.  Then it is beyond insulting how Joker reacts when you're reunited.
The closest comparison I can find offhand is Article 90.  Which would have Joker dishonorably discharged, forfeiting all benefits, and then getting 5 years in prison.  If it was considered "time of war" then he could get anything up to death.
There is no need to go to Joker if he was following orders.  He creates that entire situation himself, and then NEVER expresses any regret or appreciation for what Shepard did.  I wouldn't be quite as annoyed if he at least thanked you and made some recognition that he needs to maintain some discipline on a military ship.

Firstly, if you believe that which I've highlighted, I'm glad you never served in the military.  (Separate from my wishing I had, but my knees wouldn't survive basic training in the Air Force. )  What I said, and I'm just about at the point of copying the relevant passage out of Rogue Warrior, is that the CO is responsible and nothing changes that.  "Full stop.  End of story."  (As Cdr. Marcinko says often in his autobiography and original novel series.)

Secondly ... I think they locked in too much of an understanding of how Shepard knows Joker is Joker and accepts him for that.  I think Shepard should have had a three-branch option after 'I saw you get spaced' where she gets to say 'Gee, I wonder why?' in two of them, with the Paragon option being 'Not that I blame you or anything'... which I'd probably take, because I think my Shepard gives Joker a hell of a lot of slack, but I don' t think she should be locked into giving said slack.

Still, as bjd-four-more-letters said, it's another reason why the killing-Shepard-off thing was only good for a shocking trailer stunt if that.  Hell, just send every one of the original squad off for their pre-stated reasons, except for LiLi and the Alliance survivor, maybe come up with another device to time-skip a year, and have Cerberus make some (better) arguments for working with them, and boom, same story except we're happier -- except that they'd force some turmoil in there somewhere, but I guarantee you we'd respond to that turmoil better than we have the current turmoil.  (Or hell, destroy the ship, save everyone, Shep's grounded by default, and SR2 comes along... then same story.  Oh, and dump the suicide mission aspect, of course.)

Modifié par JaylaClark, 30 mars 2010 - 02:29 .

[JamieCOTC]

Maybe I missed something, but I don't blame Joker for Liara's dilemma. I blame the Collectors, not only for firing on the Normandy, but for forgetting to pick up Shepard's body in the first place.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 30 mars 2010 - 02:23 .

[bjdbwea]

JaylaClark wrote...

I didn't get that response, Miranda is giving him s#!t for losing the whole crew at one time and I tell her to back off, there's more to that scene?

No, you have to go talk to Joker in the cockpit after that scene.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 30 mars 2010 - 02:23 .

[JaylaClark]

JPfanner wrote...

JaylaClark wrote...
I also think that leaving Joker to die would supplant 'killing Shiala' as the worst Renegade option in both games.  Killing an unresisting prisoner versus not saving one of your own crew... both are practically indisputably evil in my brain.  (This is an opinion, of course.)

For myself, "recruiting" Morinth is in a tier of evil above and beyond anything else.  I listen to Nef's journal and her mother and then to do something like that is just makes absolutely no kind of sense to me, even trying to look at it from perspectives I don't share.  It's just plain evil and really poor judgement to boot.

... okay, your choice is definitely up there, and I can't blame you at all for thinking that.  I just thought that recruiting Morinth is beyond comprehension as opposed to horribly comprehending the reasons ... maybe I can't resolve it into the proper scale of reference?  But there is even less reason to bring her back to the ship than to kill Shiala, I'll agree.

[JaylaClark]

bjdbwea wrote...

JaylaClark wrote...

I didn't get that response, Miranda is giving him s#!t for losing the whole crew at one time and I tell her to back off, there's more to that scene?

No, you have to go talk to Joker in the cockpit after that scene.

Oh, sorry, bjd-four-other-letters .  I was in a real don't-go-talk-to-anyone mood by that point in the game.

JamieCOTC wrote...

Maybe I missed something, but I don't blame Joker for Liara's dilemma. I
blame the Collectors, not only for firing on the Normandy, but for
forgetting to pick up Shepard's body in the first place. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

Yeah, hello, people, let's refocus here?  Just a little?  Can we get GRRR a bit more at the people who actively made the attempt to kill Shepard and succeeded?

Modifié par JaylaClark, 30 mars 2010 - 02:27 .

[Maria Caliban]

I can't believe this thread has lasted so long.

Has anyone heard news about the Liara DLC?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 30 mars 2010 - 02:31 .

[scmadsen]

Somebody1003 wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Maybe I missed something, but I don't blame Joker for Liara's dilemma. I blame the Collectors, not only for firing on the Normandy, but for forgetting to pick up Shepard's body in the first place.

Thank you, it seems Im the only one here that doesnt want to shoot Joker.

LOL, well, we were talking about how it is Joker's fault that Shepard died, and thus by proxy, the reason Liara went thru everything that she did. Joker didn't follow orders, and so Shepard had to go save him, and then died while doing so. *shoots Joker in the foot*

Ok, I feel better, we can move on.

[JaylaClark]

General Stubbs wrote...

scmadsen wrote...

To be fair, and perfectly honest. I'd pick Liara over anyone else. It could of been someone other then Joker, and I'd of rather ran off with Liara, then save them. I play Paragon too. If we are forced to save someone or risk the lives of the rest of the crew in ME3, and who we have to save is Liara, I'll save her.

I know it's the "bad" thing to do.

I would love it, and laugh my ass off, if Liara gets pissed at Joker when she sees him. A nice biotic lift and throw combo, sending him flying from the bridge and down the hall into the CIC. My Shepard would be like. "EDI, you have the helm." While stepping over Joker's body.

Yeah, I would have sacrificed him in a heartbeat as well for Shep to be with Liara.
Pretty much if it comes down to Liara being with Shep or another squadmate, it will be "bye-bye sqauddie, I'll see you never"
And yeah, I always play as the good girl, but I will always make a Renegade exception to save Liara, anytime, any place.

That would definitely be hilarious, we need that to happen.
I guess the Joke would be on Joker.

Okay, I'll just *sigh* and go "Oh, Stubbs..." and leave it at that.  (Probably JP as well.)  With one last bit -- do you really think Liara would appreciate that?  Hmm? *crosses arms and gives knowing look*  She's not that hardened in ME2...

[Maria Caliban]

General Stubbs wrote...

Yeah, I would have sacrificed him in a heartbeat as well for Shep to be with Liara.

Poor Joker.

But Shepard will be with Liara. I don't doubt it. It might not be easy but 'the path of true love never did run smooth.'

[scmadsen]

General Stubbs wrote...

scmadsen wrote...

To be fair, and perfectly honest. I'd pick Liara over anyone else. It could of been someone other then Joker, and I'd of rather ran off with Liara, then save them. I play Paragon too. If we are forced to save someone or risk the lives of the rest of the crew in ME3, and who we have to save is Liara, I'll save her.

I know it's the "bad" thing to do.

I would love it, and laugh my ass off, if Liara gets pissed at Joker when she sees him. A nice biotic lift and throw combo, sending him flying from the bridge and down the hall into the CIC. My Shepard would be like. "EDI, you have the helm." While stepping over Joker's body.

Yeah, I would have sacrificed him in a heartbeat as well for Shep to be with Liara.
Pretty much if it comes down to Liara being with Shep or another squadmate, it will be "bye-bye sqauddie, I'll see you never"
And yeah, I always play as the good girl, but I will always make a Renegade exception to save Liara, anytime, any place.

That would definitely be hilarious, we need that to happen.
I guess the Joke would be on Joker.

The faces of the crew would be priceless, with someone whispering. "So that is what it takes to be Shepard's lover..." I'd think Kelly would be staring at Shepard and Liara, and Liara would shoot her a dirty look.

Modifié par scmadsen, 30 mars 2010 - 03:12 .

[JamieCOTC]

Somebody1003 wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Maybe I missed something, but I don't blame Joker for Liara's dilemma. I blame the Collectors, not only for firing on the Normandy, but for forgetting to pick up Shepard's body in the first place.

Thank you, it seems Im the only one here that doesnt want to shoot Joker.

Ragging on Joker for being disrespectful and disobeying an order is understandable, but you all forget who the real villains are.  The Collectors – the most incompetent villainous lackies in the history of the universe.  They blow up the ship in order to take Shepard’s body and fail on epic proportions.  It’s like sticking up a mini-mart, killing the attendant, leaving multiple witnesses to your crime and then forgetting to take the money.   Hello!  Also, why didn’t they either blow up the space pods or capture them to use the crew as Reaper paste?  *shakes head* Joker did a stupid thing and got grounded for it later, but the epically stupid aliens  are the real bad guys here. Never forget that!



Just lighteing the mood. 

Edit: Yes, I understand had the alines not been so incompetent the galaxy would have been distroyed, but Liara's grief would have then been short lived ... and the game would have been over in about 20 minutes.  Perhaps, Liara suffered for our enjoyment.  :crying:

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 30 mars 2010 - 02:49 .

[JaylaClark]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Somebody1003 wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Maybe I missed something, but I don't blame Joker for Liara's dilemma. I blame the Collectors, not only for firing on the Normandy, but for forgetting to pick up Shepard's body in the first place.

Thank you, it seems Im the only one here that doesnt want to shoot Joker.

Ragging on Joker for being disrespectful and disobeying an order is understandable, but you all forget who the real villains are.  The Collectors – the most incompetent villainous lackies in the history of the universe.  They blow up the ship in order to take Shepard’s body and fail on epic proportions.  It’s like sticking up a mini-mart, killing the attendant, leaving multiple witnesses to your crime and then forgetting to take the money.   Hello!  Also, why didn’t they either blow up the space pods or capture them to use the crew as Reaper paste?  *shakes head* Joker did a stupid thing and got grounded for it later, but the epically stupid aliens  are the real bad guys here. Never forget that!



Just lighteing the mood. 

Successfully, I hope... someone got a LiLi-is-annoyed pic to further the lightening of said mood?

[JamieCOTC]

Somebody1003 wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Somebody1003 wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Maybe I missed something, but I don't blame Joker for Liara's dilemma. I blame the Collectors, not only for firing on the Normandy, but for forgetting to pick up Shepard's body in the first place.

Thank you, it seems Im the only one here that doesnt want to shoot Joker.

Ragging on Joker for being disrespectful and disobeying an order is understandable, but you all forget who the real villains are.  The Collectors – the most incompetent villainous lackies in the history of the universe.  They blow up the ship in order to take Shepard’s body and fail on epic proportions.  It’s like sticking up a mini-mart, killing the attendant, leaving multiple witnesses to your crime and then forgetting to take the money.   Hello!  Also, why didn’t they either blow up the space pods or capture them to use the crew as Reaper paste?  *shakes head* Joker did a stupid thing and got grounded for it later, but the epically stupid aliens  are the real bad guys here. Never forget that!



Just lighteing the mood. 

But I can understand why he did what he did.

Me too and it's fully w/in his character.