50907 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

Littledoom wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
I'm going to assume you didn't do the Tali romance as you love liara too much to cheat on her. 

Don't have to cheat on anyone if you don't want too, you just have to make a playthrough of ME1 with a character that stays single. I did and used that one to romance Tali, she is my second favorite girl in the ME universe after all. Now I have to go in to hiding before the lynch mob comes and take me away

Actually, despite my minor dislike for Liara, I still don't want for there to be a Samara/Morinth Style cat fight (which would really, really suck) and because that is my worst case scenario and I want to avoid it,  I went back and replayed ME1 just like you in order to have no LI coming in to ME2. I also wanted to make sure all of my choices were what I wanted them to be. Win/Win.

[EvilIguana966]

onelifecrisis wrote...

I would pay (a little) money to see some major game magazine asking BW why they assassinated Liara's character without any explanation.

BTW, is it normal for BW milk their customers using comics and paid DLC? I've seen a lot of people mentioning a comic and guessing at a DLC both of which may or may not make some sense of what I'll generously refer to as the Liara "plot twist". I'm not keen on this idea at all, especially in a story-driven game. DLC and comics should provide extra material for the hardcore fans, not required reading for the rest of us.

I don't think how Bioware chose to write one of the many characters in their games qualifies as a real scanadal.  Some of us are disappointed because we had hoped for a continuation of one of the subplots from ME1, but no game will ever come close to completely satisfying everybody.  On the subject of DLC, it's the new industry normal in 2009/2010.  The underlying concept is not new.  Bioware has a very popular piece of intellectual property and they will do whatever they can to cash in on that.  There is nothing particularly sinister about that.  I'm not a fan of DLC personally because I find it to generally be a very poor value in terms of content provided per dollar spent. 

I think that if you import a ME2 save file into ME3 that did not
complete Liara's DLC, then it'll go the route of a no-import game and
assume the worst possible outcome.

For example, if in Liara's
DLC you save Feron's life and opt to destroy a major Shadow Broker base
of operations, then the default story in ME3 for those who didn't play
Liara's DLC is that Feron is dead, and the SB base is left abandoned.
Liara is still free to join the squad in ME3, but it'd assume that
"default" choices were made in her DLC.

Think about how Bring
Down the Sky is handled in ME2. If you import a ME1 character who
didn't play BDtS, then ME2 assumes that you failed the mission, going
by extranet news reports you hear in the game. I can imagine a lack of
Liara DLC data in a ME3 import would have a similar effect.

Note how little impact your decision in BDtS has on ME2.  Basically you get one little piece of audio.  Bioware has the opportunity to develop the character of Liara in a very interesting direction but I don't really think that their model for DLC  allows them to do that particularly well.  Anything that happens in that package ultimately has to have a pretty minor impact on the overall story.  But I could be completely wrong here so take what I say with a grain of salt. 

[UFOash]

Where do those "I used to be part of the community" sigs come from?

[scmadsen]

@ GuardianAngel470

Ignorance, hardly, not what you wanted to hear, perhaps. I could claim ignorance on your part as well, but I didn't.

Tail wasn't alone, and she wasn't fighting, she was stuck inside a room, her troops fighting for her. Liara was alone, and had an army land at her basecamp. Of course she hides. That's not a fair point, and you know it.

I have seen the Tali romance videos, just like everyone else has. That's not a fair point also. You can't claim I have lack of experience on the matter or that I'm being a hypocrite here, by speaking with experience.

Tali herself acts in the same manner as Liara does, thus your point about her seeming like a child, works to disprove your own argument. Tali was awkward, shy, unsure, didn't pickup on things right away, and she had the grace of going thru the first game, before talking about romance, which Liara did not. Liara didn't have the experience of dealing with humans for sometime, Tali did, and still acted the same way Liara did.

We have proven Liara is not a child by Asari standards, young yes, but not a child. However, Tali was a child, you admit such, but then say, because she now an adult, that makes it okay. Your argument fails here, because Liara was older then Tali to start with.

Human experience and years, do not equal Quarian or Asari, thus you can't compare them. We have to base this on to each their own. In that, what makes a Human an adult, what makes a Quarian an adult, and what makes and Asari an adult.

I merely stated, and rightly so, that it is reckless and selfish of Shepard to act on feelings, that could kill someone. Can you truly claim love over lust, when being with someone can kill them? If you love someone, you'd not endanger their life. You claimed Liara was childish and Shepard was taking advantage of her, thus I countered that, if that were so, the same can be said of Tali who is younger then Liara. Keep that in mind. This is not a Liara vs Tali moment, but merely a point you should consider.

Shepard is an adult, and can make choices. One even was, to tell Tali is was too risky. Shepard came off as pushy, and that's a point of view, but I am sure, I am not the only one to think so.

Modifié par scmadsen, 31 mars 2010 - 09:35 .

[GuardianAngel470]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Liara hid, Tali fought. 

Sorry, I have to contest that. Liara is probably the character from ME1 who has suffered the most and had to endure the most heartache and pain in the two years Shepard has been gone. She had to risk her own life to recover Shepard's corpse, handed over the corpse to Cerberus in hope that they could bring her back, and subsequently beats herself up over this, terrified that Shepard will hate her. She then vows to take down the Shadow Broker, abandoning her career in science and as an archaeologist to do so, and begins willingly risking her life and acting like a person she knows she isn't in order to be an information broker, a job she clearly hates doing. All the while, she's suffering, her guilt eating away at her, wondering if the person she cherishes more than anything will hate her for handing the body over to the enemy. Liara is both equally excited and terrified of seeing Shepard again, eager to see her lover but also terrified of what said lover will think of her. Couple that with the stress of working as an information broker, acting like a person she knows she isn't, and living in fear of her life on a daily basis, that says to me Liara had a fight far greater tha anyone.

Just because Liara wasn't out throwing singularities at mercs, doesn't mean she wasn't fighting. Liara's fight and her personal battle is probably the greatest and most difficult of all.

I was responding you your comment about the geth on therum. I never said that she didn't have to deal with the mental anguish of having to watch her mother be killed by the person she has feelings for.  I never said anything about her mental anguish over the death of the first man/woman she loved and then having to give that person's body over to an organization shepard despised in order to bring that person back.  But guess what?  Neither did you.  I was responding to what you said, not talking about Liara's exploits.  In all probability Tali had already returned to the Flotilla by the time the normandy got destroyed.  She told me flat out she would.

And mental disturbance is an immediate put off for me.  If someone is in the process of dealing with mental problems I will be willing to help, but I'm not going to ask them out or pursue any sort of romantic relationship.  Trust someone who has gone through mental disturbance, people like that are not fun to be around or live with.  Her mental problems put her in the same category as Miranda, Jack, and Ashley for me.  I'm not put on this planet/Galaxy for the sole purpose of helping LI overcome their mental problems.  Tali doesn't have that, she is strong enough to overcome her traumas quickly. 

Consider that Tali was almost as close to my MShep as Liara was (I didn't romance her) when Shep died.  Tali didn't go on a crusade to save me (despite how things turned out in game, if someone really did that, I'd be running for the door even though I was dead), she didn't change who she was because of my death.  She mourned, and then she got on with her life.  That is the strong thing to do.  A weak person wallows in sorrow and can't let go, can't accept that someone has died. If I died I would rather the living move on than try doing so human alchemy or disgusting science to bring me back.  I'd want to be cremated.  

[UFOash]

Somebody1003 wrote...

UFOash wrote...

Where do those "I used to be part of the community" sigs come from?

Look on the thread called "Announcing the Bioware Bazaar", people post em in there.

cba page flicking .

Ahhh well Bioware don't care anywayz.

Modifié par UFOash, 31 mars 2010 - 09:38 .

[UFOash]

Somebody1003 wrote...

UFOash wrote...

Somebody1003 wrote...

UFOash wrote...

Where do those "I used to be part of the community" sigs come from?

Look on the thread called "Announcing the Bioware Bazaar", people post em in there.

cba page flicking .

Ahhh well Bioware don't care anywayz.

Which ya want the Europe one?

Yeah I guess unless you can get the British one.
If theres an English one I'd prefer that over both though.

[scmadsen]

Liara did not turn into a stalker, or some crazy person that couldn't get over someone being killed. Liara would have broken when her mother died, if this is who she was as a character. She didn't, thus you must look for some other reason to explain it. We must also understand that not everyone romanced Liara, while this makes the story better and sweeter, it in no way is a deciding factor.



Liara saw the Hero of the Citadel, the first Human Specter, and the one that got Humans on the Council...being brushed aside, left to rot in space or on some planet. Any normal caring and feeling person, would want that body to come home and be laid to rest, given the respect it deserves.



What does the Alliance do, nothing, what does the Council do, nothing, what does your crew do, nothing...Liara on the other hand, starts about the sad task of going back to crashsite, and looking for a body to lay to rest...because no one else would bother.



She only had to deal with everything, after your body was no where to be found. She did not know starting out, that the Shadow Broker had taken your body, She did not know that Cerberus was going to try and rebuild you. She happened upon it all...when all she simply wanted, was to bury you and show some respect. Respect that was wrongly denied you.



Look at it in real life terms. We don't leave soldiers on the battlefield when we can help it. We don't leave those lost as POWs to rot somewhere. We go looking, we try to find them. Shepard wasn't given the same respect. Someone that cared about Shepard, friend or more, would rightly be upset and seek to go back...what is expected to be a now peaceful crashsite, to simply scan for a body and bring it home.

[UFOash]

I don't even know how to attach pics to my sig.

Is it just copy/paste?

[Titan98RG]

i wish they'd give us some info on the liara DLC already.

[GuardianAngel470]

scmadsen wrote...

@ GuardianAngel470

Ignorance, hardly, not what you wanted to hear, perhaps. I could claim ignorance on your part as well, but I didn't.

Tail wasn't alone, and she wasn't fighting, she was stuck inside a room, her troops fighting for her. Liara was alone, and had an army land at her basecamp. Of course she hides. That's not a fair point, and you know it.

I have seen the Tali romance videos, just like everyone else has. That's not a fair point also. You can't claim I have lack of experience on the matter or that I'm being a hypocrite here, by speaking with experience.

Tali herself acts in the same manner as Liara does, thus your point about her seeming like a child, works to disprove your own argument. Tali was awkward, shy, unsure, didn't pickup on things right away, and she had the grace of going thru the first game, before talking about romance, which Liara did not. Liara didn't have the experience of dealing with humans for sometime, Tali did, and still acted the same way Liara did.

We have proven Liara is not a child by Asari standards, young yes, but not a child. However, Tali was a child, you admit such, but then say, because she now an adult, that makes it okay. Your argument fails here, because Liara was older then Tali to start with.

Human experience and years, do not equal Quarian or Asari, thus you can't compare them. We have to base this on to each their own. In that, what makes a Human an adult, what makes a Quarian an adult, and what makes and Asari an adult.

I merely stated, and rightly so, that it is reckless and selfish of Shepard to act on feelings, that could kill someone. Can you truly claim love over lust, when being with someone can kill them? If you love someone, you'd not endanger their life. You claimed Liara was childish and Shepard was taking advantage of her, thus I countered that, if that were so, the same can be said of Tali who is younger then Liara. Keep that in mind. This is not a Liara vs Tali moment, but merely a point you should consider.

Shepard is an adult, and can make choices. One even was, to tell Tali is was too risky. Shepard came off as pushy, and that's a point of view, but I am sure, I am not the only one to think so.

You keep talking about ME2 while I'm talking about ME1.  I'm talking about how Tali tracked a geth network to an uncharted world and waited for one to separate. I'm talking about how she took the initiative to scan its memory core. I'm talking about the fight in the wards.  And as far as Heastrom goes, Im pretty sure from Kal'Reegar's Dialog that she was forced in the observatory by the marines.  I could be wrong.

And your reaction to my comment about the Tali romance is telling. Let me give you a quote from it so that you stop making statements that make you look stupid:

"I don't want to risk your health, but I'm willing to wait."

Guess what context this line was said in?  Yup, that's right, in response to tali talking about the dangers of romance.  For all shepard cared, he could wait for months before Tali was sure she could take off her mask without dying. He never forced her to see him before the suicide mission the same way he didn't force liara to talk to him before Ilos.  Tali thought she could do it safely and so she saw him in his quarters.  That isn't lust, and as far as I'm concerned there was no sex.  And how does the above line of dialog come across as pushy?  You either didn't do the romance or, as I said in my earlier post that you seem to have ignored, weren't paying attention.

I think pushing yourself on someone is wrong and creepy, and because of that I would have noticed If my shepard did that to Tali. He didn't.

[GuardianAngel470]

And My only point about Liara had you read my other posts is that she came off as really young to me, someone who lives in the same house as a 13 year old. Tali was shy about romance, Liara was young about life in general. Liara came off as young to me, and I've already stated that it is my opinion and doesn't necessarily make you wrong. I respect that you feel Tali is the same, but I don't agree that the romance was about lust. Precautions were taken, and as far as I'm concerned there was no sex.



Watching the romance on youtube is not the same as doing it. I've done both and exhausted all dialog options. That puts me in a better position to speak from experience than you. Add to that I've done them multiple times each and I'm really in a better position than you. My opinion reflects the amount of times I've watched both.

[scmadsen]

@ GuardianAngel470



One Geth, a single, on it's own...Liara had to face an army of them. The alleyway in the wards, is no more scary or dangerous then anything Liara would have faced while she was on her own. She would be a very tempting target to being robbed or taken as a slave. That never happened to her, because she was able to fight and defend herself.



I could break down the Tali romance, and scenes for you, but I'm not going to turn this into being about her. I stand by my point of view, even if you don't see it. I think, even if I did break it down and point it out, you'd still not get it. So I just won't bother. I will admit, that the Tali romance is very touching and sweet, and was done well, but it was really low of Shepard to risk Tali's life.



I'm not able to force people to change their minds, when they are already made up. You either see Liara for what she is, and what she went thru, which dwarfs the other characters, or you don't. If I wanted to be really nasty, like you seem to want to be about Liara, I could go into great detail about Tali and the flaws there. But I will be staying civil.



This is about Liara, and she's the best of all the romances. She cares for Shepard like no one else does. She'll be sticking by Shepard to the very end. She has already been thru hell and back, and she didn't give up on the mission or Shepard. Like the others did. She's still after the Reapers in her own way, even with Shepard being dead. She's taking out the Shadow Broker to learn about the Collectors, to then learn about the Reapers. She's smart enough to know that it is all connected.

[GuardianAngel470]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

And mental disturbance is an immediate put off for me.  If someone is in the process of dealing with mental problems I will be willing to help, but I'm not going to ask them out or pursue any sort of romantic relationship.

Rubbish. Liara is in the state she is during ME2 because of her love for you, and you'd already began the relationship in ME1, when Liara herself says that she's completely at peace, and the meld and union is something she is completely comfortable with. Your relationship began in ME1, when Liara was content, happy and peaceful. And now, when you turn up after two years and discover she's gone through hell, all because of her love for you, and you want to dump her? I think that's insensitive cobblers. When I see someone I love suffering, I try to help them, try to ease their pain and comfort them. I don't just dismiss them as damage goods, and run off to whoevers packaged for you on a plate, a ready made girlfriend.

Trust someone who has gone through mental disturbance, people like that are not fun to be around or live with.

I take your argument, a total fallacy, and throw it back in your face. Take your straw men elsewhere. Why should I give a flying one about what you do, what you've been through or whatever? My experiences are my own, and I'm my own person. If you want to drop someone who's going through I hard time, be my guest. I reserve the right to call you insensitive, and a cold jerk though.

Her mental problems put her in the same category as Miranda, Jack, and Ashley for me.

 

"Mental problems"? Jesus Christ. Just because someone has a bit of baggage they have a "mental problem"? I prefer to help the person I love through whatever trauma they've suffered, because I feel attached to them. I don't want a ready made, problem free girlfriend with which to put my end away.

Tali doesn't have that, she is strong enough to overcome her traumas quickly.

Because she was quite frankly bland in ME1, and seemed to serve the purpose of being a codex for the quarians. And what "traumas" has she suffered, anyway? Nothing comparable to Liara's plight, or Ashley's family being blacklisted, or Wrex having to watch his species slowly die out to extinction.

Consider that Tali was almost as close to my MShep as Liara was (I didn't romance her) when Shep died.

Which is of course a complete projection by you onto the game. There is absolutely no evidence in game to suggest Tali at any point becomes as close to Shepard as Liara in ME1. I tell you what, I think secretly wants to stab Shepard in the back. Does me saying that make it true? No, because it's just something I've made up. Something you also did to suit your argument.

Tali didn't go on a crusade to save me (despite how things turned out in game, if someone really did that, I'd be running for the door even though I was dead), she didn't change who she was because of my death.

Because she didn't give a sh!t, and this "I've always loved you since we met" aspect of Tali's romance is retconning bullsh!t. Liara has adopted this facade to her personality because of all she's suffered and been through, all for Shepard. It shows she cares, how much Shepard means to her.

She mourned, and then she got on with her life.

Again, another projection. Liara, Ashley and Kaidan are the only characters that are clearly shown to mourn Shepard's death.

 

That is the strong thing to do.  A weak person wallows in sorrow and can't let go, can't accept that someone has died.

But Liara didn't sit around and wallow in self pity and grief. She did something, she accomplished something for the person she loved. That's strong, and that shows a true bond. Liara did what no other of Shepard's friends did, and that's seek out the corpse to give Shepard a dignified sending off, and to say goodbye. And after giving Shepard's body to Cerberus and obviously hating herself for it, did she wallow about then? No, she decided to accomplish something again, and find out why the Collectors wanted Shepard, and remove the Shadow Broker whom she obviously sees as a threat. She's doing what she thinks is right, even if she hates doing it. That's strong, and is testament to just what kind of woman Liara is. Rather than do nothing, she did something productive and what she thought was right, despite how much she was hurting or suffering.

If I died I would rather the living move on than try doing so human alchemy or disgusting science to bring me back.  I'd want to be cremated.  

I hope your Shepard would enjoy his time as the Human-Reaper's middle finger, then. Because without Liara, that's where you'd be.

You ever been around someone who has mental issues? I doubt it, so don't speak when you are ignorant.  I have a mental disorder and I can tell you it sucked to be around me.  I wouldn't want to put anyone else in that position so you can't expect me to put myself in that position.  Don't dismiss something as rubbish when you know nothing about it.  I have had to spend years getting over my problems, why the hell would you think I would willingly go through it all again.  Telling someone that is insensitive because you have no idea what they have gone though.  I also help all my friends with all their problems.  When one of my friends got pregnant at the age of 17, unwed, I was the only friend of hers that was there at her baby shower.  When my friends have issues, I help them because I'm good at it.  But don't expect me torture myself in the name of love.  When someone is constantly complaining about their life and their problems, it gets depressing. As someone who is a suicide risk, depressing is unacceptable.  You honestly expect me to put myself in a position where I may be depressed enough to kill myself?  And don't even start that it is a choice.  You have no experience on the matter. 

And Tali tells you she appreciates how good you have been to her.  She considers you a friend, which is exactly how close Liara is by the end of ME1 if you don't romance her.  I don't care about the gameplay significance of Liara's actions, what she did is disgusting and creepy. Her motivations tell me how weak she is.  Saying she did it for love is a fallacy. 

[GuardianAngel470]

scmadsen wrote...

@ GuardianAngel470

One Geth, a single, on it's own...Liara had to face an army of them. The alleyway in the wards, is no more scary or dangerous then anything Liara would have faced while she was on her own. She would be a very tempting target to being robbed or taken as a slave. That never happened to her, because she was able to fight and defend herself.

I could break down the Tali romance, and scenes for you, but I'm not going to turn this into being about her. I stand by my point of view, even if you don't see it. I think, even if I did break it down and point it out, you'd still not get it. So I just won't bother. I will admit, that the Tali romance is very touching and sweet, and was done well, but it was really low of Shepard to risk Tali's life.

I'm not able to force people to change their minds, when they are already made up. You either see Liara for what she is, and what she went thru, which dwarfs the other characters, or you don't. If I wanted to be really nasty, like you seem to want to be about Liara, I could go into great detail about Tali and the flaws there. But I will be staying civil.

This is about Liara, and she's the best of all the romances. She cares for Shepard like no one else does. She'll be sticking by Shepard to the very end. She has already been thru hell and back, and she didn't give up on the mission or Shepard. Like the others did. She's still after the Reapers in her own way, even with Shepard being dead. She's taking out the Shadow Broker to learn about the Collectors, to then learn about the Reapers. She's smart enough to know that it is all connected.

When is it said that Liara had to defend herself? When is it said?  You tell me that and I might agree with you, as it stands the only time liara ever got in trouble she hid behind a wall.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Accept it Guardian, Tali is a minor character of no significance in ME2 (like most of the squad), and to make matters worse, she is dead.



I know that probably makes you worry about the chances of her having a worthwhile role in ME3, but thats the price you pay for her ME2 role. Liara is clearly a more important character having been left to one side (and even then her importance far outstrips Talis). Creating some biased and opinionated fan rant is just wasting time.

[UFOash]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Accept it Guardian, Tali is a minor character of no significance in ME2 (like most of the squad), and to make matters worse, she is dead.

I know that probably makes you worry about the chances of her having a worthwhile role in ME3, but thats the price you pay for her ME2 role. Liara is clearly a more important character having been left to one side (and even then her importance far outstrips Talis). Creating some biased and opinionated fan rant is just wasting time.

Prepare for flames!


*hides under table with flame-proof blanket*

Modifié par UFOash, 31 mars 2010 - 10:25 .