50907 réponses à ce sujet

[WilliamShatner]

Noxis6 wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
Oh I agree with you entirely, Noxis. The whole reunion with Liara and the dialogue options make it all feel like a horrible unfinished mess. I believe the reason for this though is BW's reluctance to spoil Redemption, and trying have it so that Liara remains guilty, sad and tormented so that they can take it into her DLC, and have the proper reunion and deep emotional conversations with her there. Therefore, they had one hand tied behind their back with regards to what they could do with Liara's ME2, and the horrible unfinished mess is what we're left with.

One thing I'd like to ask you about is what happens when you refuse to do her Observer quest, as you brought up. Now, I always agree to what she asks me to do, so I've never seen the dialogue in question. But is that what Liara says? That she'll kill all 5 suspects? It's not like she's trying blackmail Shepard, is it? For me, I'd say they've got Liara saying that for the benefit of the player, to illustrate just what Liara is prepared to do in order to find the Shadow Broker, rather than saying it to Shepard. It's not like she's going "Help me, or I'll kill 5 different people. How would that feel on your conscience?" but rather, like she's saying "The only other alternative is to kill 5 people, something I'm not prepared to do. Please don't make me have to do this." I for one would never imagine Liara attempting to blackmail Shepard like that.

Of course, it could be my theory that I posted about before manifesting itself again. When Shepard shouts back at her, ignorant of what's happened to Liara, her suffering and what is truly going on, Liara gets frustrated with herself that she can't open up properly to Shepard out of fear that Shep will hate her, and briefly gets angry with herself and shouts back. It's something I'd imagine Liara would regret deeply, shouting back at the person she loves, and I'd imagine that she hates seeing said lover so frustrated and angry at her. Because of her love for Shepard and how much she cares about what he/she thinks of her, she has to remain distant out of fear Shep will hate her. It's sad, and really does make you want to have Shep tell her that you don't hate her at all, that you love her, and attempt to calm and console her. Hopefully that will be possible in the Liara DLC!

Well I sure hope youre expectations for a potential Liara DLC turn out to be more then just wishful thinking,for my part I will believe it when I see it,but I have doubts and Bioware so far didnt do a great job to diminish them.

As for the Observer quest well yes,she pretty much says she will kill all of them,of course she throws something in like the deserved it I dont remember the exact lines right now something like "nothing to lose sleep about"
I guess you can interprete that in your way if you want but to me it sounded kind of like "Help me or kill them all" whether you can attribute that to her pain or determination to find the SB is debatable I guess,to me it illustrates that she is going down a dangerous path,as revenge is always a dangerous road to take,many things can happen you might push people away that want to help you,hurt some that are innocent etc.
But in any case no matter how you see her line about the 5 suspects,theres just no excuse for Shepard doing nothing if you take his/her perspective Shepard at this point has no idea what Liara did,frankly I think Shepard either has to wonder if Liara just went nuts or if s/he picked the wrong office.
With Shepard its also something thats never really brought up,yes two years have past but not for Shepard,for Shepard it was just getting blown up and waking up on a space station in the next moment,the only time that is touched upon is suprisingly in the Jacob romance.

I've never done the Jacob romance in much the same way that I would never expose my genitals to hot lava - what does Shepard say? 

That the game recognises taht it hasn't been two years for her makes the lack of continuity in her character in regards to her LI (and talking with Jacob ) even more offensive.

[Noxis6]

WilliamShatner wrote...
I've never done the Jacob romance in much the same way that I would never expose my genitals to hot lava - what does Shepard say? 

That the game recognises taht it hasn't been two years for her makes the lack of continuity in her character in regards to her LI (and talking with Jacob ) even more offensive.

Well  I havent done it personally either but the scenes are on youtube,as for what Shepard is able to say,well if you romance Jacob,after his loyality mission he will ask Shepard what burdens her,which leads to a few options like the people that died under her command.
And well one of them basicly leads Shepard to say something to effect,it burdens her how much the people she knew changed while she is still the same and how its just been a few weeks for her while in reallity two years have passed.

I think that  is the conversation for those interested

Modifié par Noxis6, 04 avril 2010 - 12:45 .

[Ulathar]

Looks like I chose the right screenshots to upload ;-)

I bet when they looked into each others eyes, they gave the word Eternity a new meaning
I know I'd think time stopped would she look into my eyes :wub:

[Ulathar]

Nah Shepard was too busy cracking his knuckles.....

Sorry to destroy the mood, but I can't get over the picture scene in ME2 .... *grumble*

[Noxis6]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
Hmm, I really need to see this dialogue path for myself. It'll be hard though, as I hate shouting at Liara or doing anything to upset her.

To me, I don't think Liara is heading down a "dark path" at all. She absolutely hates what she is having to do now, that much is obvious, and is only working as an information broker because she sees it as a necessity. She is thoroughly miserable in ME2, very lonely too, and absolutely hates what she is having to do. It all adds up with her existing guilt and emotional pain, plus having to live in fear of her life. The fact that she wants Shepard to help her identify the correct suspect, rather than take the easy way out and just kill all 5 of them, tells me that her morals are still exactly the same. Liara doesn't want to kill anyone, unless she deems it necessary. She'd rather not shed any blood. I don't believe she was every seriously going to kill all 5 suspects, that was just a product of her frustration at herself at being afraid to open up to Shepard, about being guilty for handing the corpse over to Cerberus and her fear that Shepard will hate her. She's frustrated at herself and loses her temper briefly because she's realising that Shepard is getting the wrong idea about her, because he/she is ignorant of what has really happened to Liara in the two years that Shepard has been dead. So Liara briefly gets angry and shouts, not really at Shepard, but herself. Something that I'd imagine she would regret deeply as soon as Shepard walks out of that office, and maybe even sheds a tear over.

Also, calling Liara's quest "revenge" seems like a simplification to me. I interpret it as that due to all of her suffering, her guilt, her sorrow, her pain, losing Shepard, living in fear for her life, that Liara is struggling to deal with all of her emotions. She can't shake off this pain by herself. So, she's venting them in the form of anger, and that anger is directed at a convenient figure in the Shadow Broker, an entity that has been at the centre of her suffering. Liara believes that by taking down the SB, her problems will be magically resolved and that she'll feel happy again, something that obviously isn't the case. She needs Shepard, her only friend left or her lover, to comfort her, reassure her, tell her that she's loved and try to help her ease the pain, something which Liara hasn't been able to do by herself. As I said, calling it "revenge" is a simplification, I'd say it's more like Liara is struggling to cope with her pain and grief, and is trying to seek some kind of closure or remedy for it, and she believes that to be ending the Shadow Broker. It's why I'm extremely confident we're going to be able to comfort and console Liara in her DLC, ease her pain and sorrow, with additional lines and a scene if she's your LI. Liara still loves Shepard very deeply, that much is obvious, and expresses her desire to go with Shepard in ME2, but she can't due to her pain and it being unresolved. If we weren't artificially prevented from comforting and consoling Liara properly, then she'd be on the Normandy right now, feeling happier again that she's got Shepard back, and more at peace with herself and knowing that stopping the Shadow Broker wouldn't have made her happy again, that talking about it to the one you love would have done.

As I said, roll on the DLC! I can't wait to comfort and console Liara, and reaffirm the romance!

Shepard doesnt really yell that much in this option s/he seems just a bit upset

Well I still think Liara is going a dangerous path,that doesnt mean she has to like her job or anything,but she is in danger of becoming what she hunts,she employs similar methods as the Shadow Broker she might do it for a reason,she might not like it but she does it.
As for the 5 suspects well if its of any consolation she wouldnt have killed them herself she seemingly has her own hitsquad or something for that,as you can find out if you pick the wrong target,then she says something like "my people are now moving into position".
As for this being not revenge,well what else would you call it,her pain,suffering etc. may induce it and may fuel it but in the end thats the reason she wants the SB dead for him trying to sell Shepards corpse and for whatever he did with Feron and maybe a few other things.
Within all this lies danger,she seems well lets say focused on achieving that goal and has done quite some things to achieve it so far,but the question is how far is she still willing to go for it,how far is it until innocents might suffer because of it,how far until the people she loves might suffer or getting pushed away by her because she might think they slow her down or hinder her.
I'm not saying this is going to happen,but that is the way she seems to have chosen and there is the danger of losing herself in it.
I agree on one thing though,killing the SB wont solve it in the end,taking revenge is never really solving anything,you might feel satisfaction,but if you look on what you sacrificed to achieve your goal you might feel even worse then before,in the worst case your entire live may lie in ruins.

I just hope Bioware has a similar take on things but I'm prepared to be kicked in the face by them again.

[Ulathar]

Cartims wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...


As I said, roll on the DLC! I can't wait to comfort and console Liara, and reaffirm the romance!

If there is no DLC with Liara, and you can't comfort her.....you are going to be one angry fan, I am glad I'm an ocean away.....

He wouldn't be the only one

[Noxis6]

Never underestimate the flying distance of a pitchforke

[IndigoWolfe]

*Yawn* Stayed up until way past twelve last night working on my two Shepard and Liara pieces. Really, just one of them --the one I got the idea for while working on the first. I must say, it flew together almost by itself and spectacularly well. No ideas for a background though... But I suppose the best part is I actually got to use the outfit from the Art Of Mass Effect that I had been nudge-nudging other fanartists to use. The first piece still needs some work; the background isn't fully inked. But don't expect to see them too soon now, I still have to do the extensive coloring work. The earliest date for the either finished product would be some time tomorrow. But until then, perhaps a preview?

That is, if you're all quite finished going back and forth about how FemaleShepard/Liara is or isn't soo much "superiour" to MaleShepard/Liara.

Modifié par IndigoWolfe, 04 avril 2010 - 02:47 .

[Noxis6]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Noxis6 wrote...

Well I still think Liara is going a dangerous path,that doesnt mean she has to like her job or anything,but she is in danger of becoming what she hunts,she employs similar methods as the Shadow Broker she might do it for a reason,she might not like it but she does it.

The way I see it, the only similar method that she seems to be employing to the Shadow Broker is strong-arming a customer who refuses to pay her, one of the least nasty and reprehensible tactics in a shady business like the one she finds herself in. That doesn't necessarily mean she actually harms her customers either, her threats may be enough to convince them to pay and if they don't, she uses other methods to do so. And the point of whether she likes it or not is a very valid and important one. It shows that even after two years of having to work this way, that her morals haven't been altered at all, that she hasn't gone down a dark path as you say. If she's still the same Liara morally, even after two whole years of working as an info broker, then that says to me that she's never going to like her work, and is going to want out of it as soon as possible.

As for this being not revenge,well what else would you call it,her pain,suffering etc. may induce it and may fuel it but in the end thats the reason she wants the SB dead for him trying to sell Shepards corpse and for whatever he did with Feron and maybe a few other things.

There's a big difference. Revenge is an eye-for-an-eye, it's completely unhealthy and morally corrupt. "You'll live to regret this! I'll kill you for what you've done to me!" I don't think Liara's motive is predominantly revenge. Revenge is something someone cannot easily be talked down from, and it can be all-consuming. It generates anger, aggression. Now, Liara may SEEM to be displaying these traits, but if at the heart of it it's due to the fact she feels "I'm in so much pain emotionally, this is awful, it's eating away at me, I'm so sad, maybe if I end the Shadow Broker I can ease this pain" which, whilst not been completely healthy, is not morally corrupt like revenge is. What I feel is driving Liara is something that she can be comforted for, Shepard can help ease her pain, the person that she loves can console her, and help her to feel happy again, something not really possible if her thoughts were "I'll get you for what you did to me!!" It'll be alot easier to help her if at heart, she's stil the same old Liara, just deeply hurt, rather than being revenge obsessed.

Within all this lies danger,she seems well lets say focused on achieving that goal and has done quite some things to achieve it so far,but the question is how far is she still willing to go for it,how far is it until innocents might suffer because of it,how far until the people she loves might suffer or getting pushed away by her because she might think they slow her down or hinder her.

Which is completely hypothetical. The fact that Liara hasn't felt the need to stoop to those levels after two whole years, and avoids killing whenever possible, tells me that she's never going to feel the need to have to do that. Like I said, she's still the same morally, just in an awful predicament. It's the classic "Put an inherently good person in an inherently bad situation" archetype that we're seeing here. Plus, Liara is making progress in her hunt for the SB, she says that herself, so I sincerely doubt that she'll ever feel the need to stoop to those levels.

Also, Liara is completely reluctant to push Shepard away, that much is obvious. She even says she wishes she could go with Shep on the Normandy, and seems extremely regretful and sorrowful that she can't. The reason that she seems to be distant, cold and pushing Shepard away initially is revealed later, she's terrified Shepard will hate her, and seems to be holding herself back from opening up fully as she's fearful of what Shepard's reaction will be to the fact she saved the corpse, and handed it over to Cerberus. You get the feeling throughout the reunion that she's constantly on the cusp of breaking down and opening up, but holds herself back because of this fear. Which makes it all the more moving when she eventually does, and almost bursts into tears in the process, revealing in part her still deep love for Shepard, and how much she's suffered.

Well we dont know what would happen if someone doesnt pay Liara,since according to herself they always pay,so we can speculate,though why asari commandos are that threatening is beyond me:blink:
And then there is the fact that she employs the habit of having people killed,of course we can argue Nyxeris might have been something like selfdefense,but the rest of course lies in the realm of speculation,like has she killed other agents or how often has she done this,its not so much in question that Liara can fight or kill but bear in mind killing in battle is a different pair of shoes.

As for the revenge thing,I agree its not an eye for eye were dealing with here,but still what Liara does looks like revenge to me,again as I see it her pain and suffering are the fuel for this.
She sure doesnt look like you can talk her out of this easily,though looking at ME2 a challenge of talking someone out of something in a longer conversation would be nice instead of just shooting.
I agree though Shepard might be the only person that can do something about it,be it as friend or lover,going by the loyality missions of ME2 that seems to be one of Shepards jobs anyway and it raises the question why do we need Kelly,Shepard has basicly taken over that position.

Of course most of what we are talking about is speculation,but we dont know how much progress Liara made thanks to Shepard,according to her it might still take years to get to the SB,so there is still room for her to take even more well horrifying steps,thats all up in the air,if the SB bites it in a potential DLC,we might never know how far she would have gone.
As for pushing people away,well I doubt the game shows what I meant,I agree her coldness is out of fear of being hated by Shepard,but we dont know what might happen should Shepard try to talk her out of her quest or even stop her completely.

[bjdbwea]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Awesome! The Redemption-inspired piece of artwork you made before was excellent, made Liara look incredibly badass. Can't wait to see what you've got coming next! I love all Liara fanart!

Could you link to that again? I'm sure I've seen it, but just in case?

[Marcin K]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Probably the best Liara screenshot ever!



:wub:Her beauty is unsurpassed.

good afternoon everyone=]
i've had some things to do, but it's all sorted now, so i could finally come here:happy:
great Liara pic:wub::wub:

[ratzerman]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Probably the best Liara screenshot ever!



:wub:Her beauty is unsurpassed.

Definitely agree with you there...... sexy and serene.....

[jlb524]

Noxis6 wrote...


Well  I havent done it personally either but the scenes are on youtube,as for what Shepard is able to say,well if you romance Jacob,after his loyality mission he will ask Shepard what burdens her,which leads to a few options like the people that died under her command.
And well one of them basicly leads Shepard to say something to effect,it burdens her how much the people she knew changed while she is still the same and how its just been a few weeks for her while in reallity two years have passed.

I think that  is the conversation for those interested

That's an interesting conversation.  It's too bad you have to romance Jacob to see it

That dialog is actually one of the better ME2 romance conversations I've seen....Jacob actually shows some concern for Shepard and her feelings (most just babble on about their own past/problems).  Too bad the scene gets ruined when FemShep starts sounding like a sleaze.

All Shepards should get the chance to have discussion, though, with some one like Joker or Dr. Chakwas.

Modifié par jlb524, 04 avril 2010 - 04:07 .