50907 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

I've been thinking about this whole 'Liara is dark now and needs saved' stuff. I've decided that, depending on how they handle this in ME3, I might actually choose to push Liara to the 'Renegade' side, if given an option to do so. If, for the 'Paragon' option, they do the whole 'Liara has lost her way and needs big tough Shepard to come save her' garbage like they did with Bastilla in KOTOR and Aribeth in NWN, I think I'll take the 'Renegade' option and not 'save' her. I'm just not 100% anything she's doing now is 'bad' or that she needs 'saved'. I think JPFanner is the one that keeps mentioning the fact that if Liara were male, she would be getting praise for her actions in ME2 instead of being considered 'lost' or in need of saving.

[Noxis6]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Noxis6 wrote...


Well we dont know what would happen if someone doesnt pay Liara,since according to herself they always pay,so we can speculate,though why asari commandos are that threatening is beyond me:blink:

Yeah, but like I said Liara going out of her way to avoid killing people where it isn't necessary says to me that she's trying to avoid as much violence as possible, and wants to limit the bloodshed she causes. Therefore, she's not going to harm or kill her clients or customers, as it goes against her morals and values which as I said are still intact. Also asari commandos are definitely threatening! There's a turian saying in the codex about them which I can't remember, but basically says that the asari are the greatest lone soldiers in the galaxy, and that luckily there aren't many of them. An asari commando unit is definitely threatening.

And then there is the fact that she employs the habit of having people killed,of course we can argue Nyxeris might have been something like selfdefense,but the rest of course lies in the realm of speculation,like has she killed other agents or how often has she done this,its not so much in question that Liara can fight or kill but bear in mind killing in battle is a different pair of shoes.

We only ever see her kill 1 person in-game. That's all that's confirmed. Whether she's killed any more is pure speculation. Also, the Shadow Broker and his agents aren't exactly innocent. Look at Fist. Utterly abhorrent people, who do nothing but spread crime, corruption and other harmful things. Like I said, Liara hates the fact that she is having to do this, but it's the only way that she sees it is possible to track down the SB. The fact that she's been able to operate in the seedy, dirty and corrupt world of itrigue and with a minimal amount of bloodshed is admirable, and showcases the strength of her character and values.

Of course most of what we are talking about is speculation,but we dont know how much progress Liara made thanks to Shepard,according to her it might still take years to get to the SB,so there is still room for her to take even more well horrifying steps,thats all up in the air,if the SB bites it in a potential DLC,we might never know how far she would have gone.

It has helped her make progress in her hunt, Liara says so. Also, I think you're taking what Liara says about it "could take years" literally. I don't think Liara means that she will literally spend years trying to track down the Shadow Broker, it's more her trying to describe the scale of the task ahead. If it is taking her years, then I think it would get to a point when Liara realises that she's not getting anywhere, and would join up with Shepard again, possibly to ask for assistance. Remember, Liara wants to leave Illium with Shepard, she says that herself. So yeah, Liara saying it could take years is not supposed to be taken literally, and is rather supposed to describe the scale of the task she has ahead.

Also, like I said, the fact that Liara hasn't compromised her morals or her principals in the two years she's already spent hunting the SB speaks volumes, and suggests to me that she will never stoop low enough to start actively killing innocents, or inflicting harm amongst those not deserving of it. She'll only harm those who are working for the Shadow Broker and are actively a threat to her own safety, she won't ever hurt or kill innocents.

As for pushing people away,well I doubt the game shows what I meant,I agree her coldness is out of fear of being hated by Shepard,but we dont know what might happen should Shepard try to talk her out of her quest or even stop her completely.

Do you know what happens if you choose to have Shepard yell at Liara after she opens her heart and reveals her guilt over handing the body over to Cerberus? She doesn't shout back at Shepard, she doesn't get irritated or annoyed. She isn't even in the slightest bit angry. She gets sad, really sad and sorrowful. That to me speaks volumes about how much Shepard means to her, and how she'd never want to push Shepard away. Rather than get angry, argue back or tell Shepard to leave her to her work, she gets extremely sorrowful and remorseful. Everything she's doing, she's doing out of her love for Shepard. The fact that Shepard then doesn't appreciate what she's done, and does despise the fact that she handed the body over to Cerberus, brings out a reaction in Liara completely atypical of this hardened facade. That of complete sorrow, and regret that the person she loves more than any in the galaxy does hate what she's done. To me, that says that if Shepard did try to talk her out of her mission, she'd listen and she'd be extremely receptive to what Shepard has to say, and would take on board whatever he/she has to say about her quest to end the Shadow Broker.

Now, if said person tries to comfort her, ease her of her pain and help her bury her demons, all of which are tormenting her because of her love for Shepard, then it's going to have an effect, and she'll listen to what Shepard has to say, and consoling and comforting Liara will be extremely effective.

Well I guess Benezias commandos just didnt impress me that much:P
As for her not wanting to hurt her clients we dont know that since they always pay though I guess you cant let it slip in Liaras line of work if someone doesnt pay you,though we can add that most of her clients are hardly innocent people at least thats how I see it.

As for the question of her having killed more of the SBs agents well thats a blank I would like to see filled,we can only speculate,on Fist yes that guy was a criminal,but what about Barla Von he seemed to have quite a respectable job of course he used loopholes in the law and stuff,but what I mean to say is the SBs agents come in many colors,some might be ruthless criminals others might at least appear to be quite respectable people.

Her "it could take years" line well you can interprete that in two ways I guess,in the end it might depend on what the gap between the two games is or maybe an eventual expansion,personally I'm not a fan of seeing the SB going down that easily exspecially in just a DLC

I agree Liara would never activily start killing innocents,yet there might be some that get caught in the middle,theres also always the danger of this happening,also there is the fact she might hurt innocents indirectly,as pointed out above I doubt her clients are nice people so we dont know what happens because of the info she sells.
This is Terminus after all potential clients range from thieves over slavers to pirates.

And yes I chose the angry line in the conversation were she reveals it all,mainly in the hope of getting more out of the conversation since the other option was just disapointing,not that the angry one turned out to be better.
Yes,she doesnt do the usual barking back as with other angry lines you can pick,she seems a bit like Shepard just slaped here which s/he kind of did with that line.
But talking her out of the SB mission I dont know,you cannot deny she has alot of hate and anger torwards the Shadow Broker and these emotions also have a tendency to make you blind for other things,I have my doubts she will just sit there an listen to Shepard should s/he attempt to talk her out of it.

[Marcin K]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

More Liara pix!!



Look at that beautiful face. She's our aphrodite! :wub:

o yes:wub::O:wub::wub:

Modifié par Marcin R, 04 avril 2010 - 04:49 .

[jlb524]

Consoling is different from 'saving' as I meant it. Even a tough crime-boss like Aria needs some comforting every once in awhile. I meant it more along the lines of having a choice to either prevent Liara from continuing on as a powerful information broker or not and convincing her to settledown to become a housewife and have tons of babies or something...a more traditionally 'acceptable' role. I'm exaggerating here, but I really don't like the latter option and would go for the 'Renegade' one in this case.

[Marcin K]

jlb524 wrote...

Consoling is different from 'saving' as I meant it. Even a tough crime-boss like Aria needs some comforting every once in awhile. I meant it more along the lines of having a choice to either prevent Liara from continuing on as a powerful information broker or not and convincing her to settledown to become a housewife and have tons of babies or something...a more traditionally 'acceptable' role. I'm exaggerating here, but I really don't like the latter option and would go for the 'Renegade' one in this case.

Liara=EVIL BROKER:devil:? NEVER!

[jlb524]

Marcin R wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Consoling is different from 'saving' as I meant it. Even a tough crime-boss like Aria needs some comforting every once in awhile. I meant it more along the lines of having a choice to either prevent Liara from continuing on as a powerful information broker or not and convincing her to settledown to become a housewife and have tons of babies or something...a more traditionally 'acceptable' role. I'm exaggerating here, but I really don't like the latter option and would go for the 'Renegade' one in this case.

Liara=EVIL BROKER:devil:? NEVER!

I never said she was evil.  Just powerful.

[Ulathar]

Marcin R wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Consoling
is different from 'saving' as I meant it. Even a tough crime-boss like
Aria needs some comforting every once in awhile. I meant it more along
the lines of having a choice to either prevent Liara from continuing on
as a powerful information broker or not and convincing her to settledown
to become a housewife and have tons of babies or something...a more
traditionally 'acceptable' role. I'm exaggerating here, but I really
don't like the latter option and would go for the 'Renegade' one in this
case.

Liara=EVIL BROKER[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]? NEVER![smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png[/smilie]

I have a Renegade character (not my Main). With Liara as an Information Broker with the same amount of information and power as the SB, she would fit into that characters evil plans just fine (endgame of that plan is to rule the entire galaxy - yes it's cliche but I hope for the option to end the game like that) - without becoming evil herself or realizing it anyway *evillol*

My MainShep however would like to simply travel with Liara again. Like going to excavation sites with her and help her do the work she enjoyed so much before we met her. Then, perhaps in time they could settle down.

Modifié par Systemlord Baal, 04 avril 2010 - 05:01 .

[Noxis6]

jlb524 wrote...

Consoling is different from 'saving' as I meant it. Even a tough crime-boss like Aria needs some comforting every once in awhile. I meant it more along the lines of having a choice to either prevent Liara from continuing on as a powerful information broker or not and convincing her to settledown to become a housewife and have tons of babies or something...a more traditionally 'acceptable' role. I'm exaggerating here, but I really don't like the latter option and would go for the 'Renegade' one in this case.

Remember noone ****s with Aria:whistle:,ah I guess I read too many of these ME2 memes on deviantart recently

I guess I would be content if she picks up her old job again,lets just say I have the feeling the Protheans left something behind that still might be of use or maybe its just me questioning what an information network helps against the reaper fleet or how a desk prevents indoctrination.
Even if Liara was male she wouldnt really get praise from me for her new job,I guess I#m a bit tired of this supposedly "badazz kewl criminalz" type of characters.
But as long as I can push her in one direction or another and its done in a good way I'm ok with it I guess

[jlb524]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

I personally feel that Shepard will be able to talk her out of her mission to end the Shadow Broker. Her hate and anger is strong, yes, but it's been built up on a bed of anguish, guilt, sorrow and emotional torment. Those emotions are easier to help ease and resolve, especially when they're because of her love for the person who's trying to talk her out of the mission and console her in the first place. Everything that's happened to her, all the pain she's suffered is because of her love for Shepard.

How can you be so sure of this?  Liara might have another reason to want to bring the SB down that has absolutely nothing to do with Shepard.  Liara has been hunting the SB for two years...I'm sure she's dug up some dirt on the SB and I bet it's not pleasant.  Desire to stop a powerful/potentially evil person/group could be the motivating factor here.

Like I said, Liara has kept her morals and principals in the two years she's been working as an info broker, and I believe that she'd never willingly hurt innocent people. Her targets are senior agents of the Shadow Broker, people that she deems criminal enough to have no qualms in killing in order to track down their superior.

I agree that with what we know of Liara's actions in ME2, they do not necessarily clash with what we know her morals were in ME1.

Also, do you remember what Nyxeris tells Shepard before you first enter Liara's office? It's something like "Liara could have even more political power if she weren't so focused on her personal goals." This tells me that Liara has absolutely zero interest in furthering her career as an information broker, that her sole motivation for working in the job, a job she clearly hates, is tracking down the Shadow Broker. She doesn't want any more power, at all. She doesn't desire any of the dirty work she's having to do. Her sole reason for working in this job she hates is tracking down the Shadow Broker.

That statement is a bit ambiguous though.  Liara might still enjoy being an information broker.  Nyxeris is just alluding to the fact that Liara has forgone using her influence to gain political power and has just focused on taking out the SB.

[Larask]

jlb524 wrote...

I've been thinking about this whole 'Liara is dark now and needs saved' stuff. I've decided that, depending on how they handle this in ME3, I might actually choose to push Liara to the 'Renegade' side, if given an option to do so. If, for the 'Paragon' option, they do the whole 'Liara has lost her way and needs big tough Shepard to come save her' garbage like they did with Bastilla in KOTOR and Aribeth in NWN, I think I'll take the 'Renegade' option and not 'save' her. I'm just not 100% anything she's doing now is 'bad' or that she needs 'saved'. I think JPFanner is the one that keeps mentioning the fact that if Liara were male, she would be getting praise for her actions in ME2 instead of being considered 'lost' or in need of saving.

I think the same think. I do not hate how Liara is now. She's is trying to get rid of someone who can be a burden for many in the galaxy, and she's just being very determined. She hasn't become a mass murderer or anything. Although she does reject Shepard's offer to go the Normandy, she still wants to help Shepard in any way, and one of the reasons she wants to destroy the SB is to see if he has any more information on the Collectors.
The fact that she doesn't have any more dialog after you complete her quests is not b/c of her attidute, it's just because the devs didn't create more dialog. So, I don't think she is lost and I sure hope BW is not going to make us "rescue" her, when none is needed. Shepard can go and help Liara in her quest, but don't change her! She can still be a very loving women, while being confident and determined.

[Marcin K]

Noxis6 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Consoling is different from 'saving' as I meant it. Even a tough crime-boss like Aria needs some comforting every once in awhile. I meant it more along the lines of having a choice to either prevent Liara from continuing on as a powerful information broker or not and convincing her to settledown to become a housewife and have tons of babies or something...a more traditionally 'acceptable' role. I'm exaggerating here, but I really don't like the latter option and would go for the 'Renegade' one in this case.

Remember noone ****s with Aria:whistle:,ah I guess I read too many of these ME2 memes on deviantart recently

I guess I would be content if she picks up her old job again,lets just say I have the feeling the Protheans left something behind that still might be of use or maybe its just me questioning what an information network helps against the reaper fleet or how a desk prevents indoctrination.
Even if Liara was male she wouldnt really get praise from me for her new job,I guess I#m a bit tired of this supposedly "badazz kewl criminalz" type of characters.
But as long as I can push her in one direction or another and its done in a good way I'm ok with it I guess

push? noo i do not want to push Liara in any direction, just show her the good way, forcing her [or "pushing"] to do anything would be simply :devil:EVIL:devil: on the other hand just showing the light is :innocent:

[JaylaClark]

Okay, let's go to the video tape regarding if LiLi loves her job ...

"I am a very good information broker..." is said with a lot of pride on her face, which stays on until "...only the bodies still smell."  Pretty sharp drop from pride to distaste.

Honestly, this tells me that she likes sifting through the data ... but she hates what she needs to do to get it.

[Noxis6]

jlb524 wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

I personally feel that Shepard will be able to talk her out of her mission to end the Shadow Broker. Her hate and anger is strong, yes, but it's been built up on a bed of anguish, guilt, sorrow and emotional torment. Those emotions are easier to help ease and resolve, especially when they're because of her love for the person who's trying to talk her out of the mission and console her in the first place. Everything that's happened to her, all the pain she's suffered is because of her love for Shepard.

How can you be so sure of this?  Liara might have another reason to want to bring the SB down that has absolutely nothing to do with Shepard.  Liara has been hunting the SB for two years...I'm sure she's dug up some dirt on the SB and I bet it's not pleasant.  Desire to stop a powerful/potentially evil person/group could be the motivating factor here.

Like I said, Liara has kept her morals and principals in the two years she's been working as an info broker, and I believe that she'd never willingly hurt innocent people. Her targets are senior agents of the Shadow Broker, people that she deems criminal enough to have no qualms in killing in order to track down their superior.

I agree that with what we know of Liara's actions in ME2, they do not necessarily clash with what we know her morals were in ME1.

Also, do you remember what Nyxeris tells Shepard before you first enter Liara's office? It's something like "Liara could have even more political power if she weren't so focused on her personal goals." This tells me that Liara has absolutely zero interest in furthering her career as an information broker, that her sole motivation for working in the job, a job she clearly hates, is tracking down the Shadow Broker. She doesn't want any more power, at all. She doesn't desire any of the dirty work she's having to do. Her sole reason for working in this job she hates is tracking down the Shadow Broker.

That statement is a bit ambiguous though.  Liara might still enjoy being an information broker.  Nyxeris is just alluding to the fact that Liara has forgone using her influence to gain political power and has just focused on taking out the SB.

Well the SB sure has enough sceletons to fill a ton of closets with,so yes that might motivate her and as said above I doubt Shepard can just talk her out of it.
I also agree that Nyxeris line doesnt really make it clear,what the deal with Liara is,though so far shes just big in Nos astra or on  Illium,how many cities does this planet have anyway.
I guess in the end it comes down to what happens after the SBs death,can I reason with her,does she just take over so Shepard has to remove just another criminal from the galaxy,or does something completely different happen.
I still hope for a squadmate status in ME3 though,also because I cant really see how the SBs network is of any help against the reapers,an enemy that doesnt store its intel on terminals on random planets,doesnt plan its next attack in some nightclub and most important you cant infiltrate at all.
The SBs databanks would  maybe help ,but thats something Liara can do on board the Normandy,if she really insists on not coming along in ME3 well I guess she can always try hiding under her desk from the reapers then:kissing:

[jlb524]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

J, If Liara had found another reason to hunt down the SB, she would have told Shepard when she opened up about handing the corpse over to Cerberus. In that moment, she pretty much put her heart on the line, and revealed all, as she would have no reason to hide anything from Shep anymore, due to her realising that Shepard doesn't hate her. Also, why would Liara keep reasons that prove the SB is utterly abhorrent a secret from Shepard before she opens up?

Liara might have no reason to hide information about the true nature of the SB from Shepard but the writers might have a reason to hide it from us.  Having Liara reveal this in ME2 might spoil something they are planning in either Redemption, DLC, or even ME3 regarding the SB.

[Marcin K]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

*CUT*>>>>*CUT*>>>>>*CUT*
Also, I think that the game makes it pretty clear that Liara does not enjoy being an information broker. Look at how tired and stressed she appears to be, how sad and lonely she is. It's an awful job, and a job she hates.

exactly, if Liara would like being Info-Brok. or shifting through the data she wouldn't be in so much stress, and she would open up completely before Shepard.
The current situation Liara is is clearly indicates that she is forced into current position

[Ulathar]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Once the SB has gone, Liara has absolutely no motivation anymore for working as an information broker.

As soon as that disappears, she's back on the Normandy again with Shepard, as she says she wants to.

Hopefully she'll be in Shepard's cabin.

They sure have some catching up to do



:wub:

Modifié par Systemlord Baal, 04 avril 2010 - 05:30 .

[jlb524]

JaylaClark wrote...

Okay, let's go to the video tape regarding if LiLi loves her job ...

"I am a very good information broker..." is said with a lot of pride on her face, which stays on until "...only the bodies still smell."  Pretty sharp drop from pride to distaste.

Honestly, this tells me that she likes sifting through the data ... but she hates what she needs to do to get it.

I agree.  Liara likes puzzles and gets excited when she can use her enormous intellect to unearth buried secrets.  The information business is similar to the archeological one. 

Liara might find a distaste for the violence that is sometimes necessary in the information field but she also had to face this as an archeologist....violence was necessary at times against pirates and merch bands.