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[Driveninhifi]

Noxis6 wrote...

The whole scene really lacked a lot of things,for Liara I missed something some signs that she regrets what she is doing or at least doesnt like it,might be because I'm not good at reading between lines but I never found something like that,but got plenty of lines out of her boasting how good she is at her new job.

I think that, yes, there needed to be something showing the violence and strongarming people is hard on her. It only makes sense for it to be so. It would also show the player that this IS the same character, she's just had to do hard things.
I didn't get the feeling she was boasting though, and she does talk about "doing what we all have to do." It makes sense for her character to consciously not think about it and second-guess herself because that would probably break her. The only way for her to survive is to not think about it. She really doesn't seem to be enjoying it, she seems more resigned than anything else, like she sees no other way. Shepard really should have been able to talk to her further about it though.

If you tell her not to give into temptation she does show some regret.
 

[WilliamShatner]

Liara's role in ME2 is akin to Michael in The Godfather if they cut out every scene between the wedding scene and him becoming the head of the family

[Deamon023]

JPfanner wrote...

Did anyone else look at Nyxeris's desk and try to figure out how she gets behind it?

Yeah I did check on my second run.

[Driveninhifi]

JPfanner wrote...
Yep, especially considering that this is exactly what she has been hoping for during the two year wait.  Plus it hasn't been two years for Shepard.  Most importantly though I think is the melding.  The fascinating thing about a relationship with Liara is that neither one can lie about they feel.  Once they meld all that is laid open.  It really is a relationship where terms like "us" and "the whole being greater than the sum of its parts" really do apply.  And questions like "How does she really feel about me?" can be answered.

Yeah, I agree. I actually brought this up a couple weeks ago. That would be an interesting sequence to write. She, of course, would be really scared that Shepard would see the bad things she's gone through/had to do and would leave because of that. Shepard could laugh and remind her how many people he/she kills like every day! It would be a bit hypocritical for Shepard to judge her considering how many people you are constantly strongarming/threatening/shooting/etc.

I'd be a bit worried about seeming overly sappy, but I do think it's the most logical way for them to reunite. It would certainly be cathartic, plus it's the easiest way to get her up to speed with everything Shepard's learned. And she can be absolutely sure Shepard really does love her and not be afraid of that anymore, at least.

And if Shepard is sleeping with Miranda on the side, you could also devastate Liara in the process.

[Noxis6]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I think that, yes, there needed to be something showing the violence and strongarming people is hard on her. It only makes sense for it to be so. It would also show the player that this IS the same character, she's just had to do hard things.
I didn't get the feeling she was boasting though, and she does talk about "doing what we all have to do." It makes sense for her character to consciously not think about it and second-guess herself because that would probably break her. The only way for her to survive is to not think about it. She really doesn't seem to be enjoying it, she seems more resigned than anything else, like she sees no other way. Shepard really should have been able to talk to her further about it though.

If you tell her not to give into temptation she does show some regret.
 

With boasting I mostly meant the line you can get out of her when asking about Thane but maybe boasting was a bit of a strong word,yet I got that impression out of it a bit.
As for the not giving into temptation line,I used that,well as I said I'm not that good at reading between lines when I first used it I thought "Does she even realize how close she is to being exactly like the Shadow Broker".

[JPfanner]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...


If you tell her not to give into temptation she does show some regret.
 

Yes, as evidenced by the sad, pensive pause as she says "Everything I'm doing, I'm doing of my own free will....for better or for worse". She's not enjoying what she's doing, not by any stretch of the imagination.

I have faith in her to make the hard decisions.  She feels that stopping the Shadow Broker is necessary.  She is working towards that instead of doing a whole slew of other activities.  It was more important than going to Ilos for her, that says a HELL of a lot.  She could have easily recovered your body, turned it over, and then went to hide away on Ilos doing research.  The Reapers are coming and really Liara, Ashley, and Kaiden were the only former squadmates who didn't just wander off and take up some personal hobby to avoid dealing with that.

[screwoffreg]

I really am enjoying this thread. As much as I like Tali, there is less discussion of her motives than this thread. I will be the first to admit Liara is a much more complex character, even with her limited role in ME 2. I am stealing a lot of ideas from this thread for my story...I hope you all don't mind.

[bjdbwea]

I don't get this talk about optimism or pessimism. I prefer to be realistic. And that makes me think that BioWare has changed, and it's unlikely that we'll see a proper resolution to this ME 1 LI mess. Nor for that matter a continuation of the series that can keep up with the first part. Consequence will be that I don't buy the next game outright or at all.

But realism doesn't exclude hoping to be proven right or wrong, depending on what you wish for accordingly. Therefore it still makes sense to write your opinion down here, it's the only small chance at all to influence anything. Besides, this thread has been so far an enclave of proper and civilized discussion. Who cares about the number of pages?

Modifié par bjdbwea, 26 février 2010 - 11:00 .

[Driveninhifi]

Noxis6 wrote...
With boasting I mostly meant the line you can get out of her when asking about Thane but maybe boasting was a bit of a strong word,yet I got that impression out of it a bit.
As for the not giving into temptation line,I used that,well as I said I'm not that good at reading between lines when I first used it I thought "Does she even realize how close she is to being exactly like the Shadow Broker".

Well, that line made sense to me. She probably IS very good at putting clues together - she's got like 60+ years of experience doing it after all. Plus she probably wants to impress Shepard somewhat - remember that you are pretty much the most awesome person in the galaxy. And she is either in love with you or something very close to it, coupled with being terrified you will hate her.

I'm not sure how close she really is to the Shadow Broker though - since we don't know much about him. Sure, the threats are out of character, and she's probably done some unsavory things. So has Shepard, really - and so has she when she was with you in ME1. She is presented as a bit more ruthless and angry than I buy from her character though.
She at least does all her business in the open, face-to-face. And I doubt she's into all the really nasty stuff the Shadow Broker is into. He's pretty amoral and I have a hard time believe she would be. It's not like you see her hacking/killing innocent people. The Observer is clearly pretty nasty and all the other contacts are as well - you can infer at least that much from the fragmented info on them.

[Driveninhifi]

screwoffreg wrote...

I really am enjoying this thread. As much as I like Tali, there is less discussion of her motives than this thread. I will be the first to admit Liara is a much more complex character, even with her limited role in ME 2. I am stealing a lot of ideas from this thread for my story...I hope you all don't mind.

Yeah, but Tali's motivations are made clear in game. Her role in ME2 is also essentially the role Liara played in ME1: the sort of innocent geek.

Liara's motivations are not clear, either because they ran out of time, they didn't want to spoil the comic or they were really set on making the relationship seem "rocky." I feel like any option is a cop-out if they really want to sell the character believably in game though.

[JPfanner]

Driveninhifi wrote...

JPfanner wrote...
Yep, especially considering that this is exactly what she has been hoping for during the two year wait.  Plus it hasn't been two years for Shepard.  Most importantly though I think is the melding.  The fascinating thing about a relationship with Liara is that neither one can lie about they feel.  Once they meld all that is laid open.  It really is a relationship where terms like "us" and "the whole being greater than the sum of its parts" really do apply.  And questions like "How does she really feel about me?" can be answered.

Yeah, I agree. I actually brought this up a couple weeks ago. That would be an interesting sequence to write. She, of course, would be really scared that Shepard would see the bad things she's gone through/had to do and would leave because of that. Shepard could laugh and remind her how many people he/she kills like every day! It would be a bit hypocritical for Shepard to judge her considering how many people you are constantly strongarming/threatening/shooting/etc.

I'd be a bit worried about seeming overly sappy, but I do think it's the most logical way for them to reunite. It would certainly be cathartic, plus it's the easiest way to get her up to speed with everything Shepard's learned. And she can be absolutely sure Shepard really does love her and not be afraid of that anymore, at least.

And if Shepard is sleeping with Miranda on the side, you could also devastate Liara in the process.

Seriously, after ME2 I could REALLY use some overly sappy Liara time : )
In my opinion, all of your alien squadmembers in both games weren't very respective of their species in a lot of personality ways.  Like how Garrus himself says that he doesn't think he is a very good Turian.  And I got that impression back in ME1.  Liara talks about how asari are open sexually and if you force that threesome she says that is acceptable for her.  But I don't think she's being a typical asari, I think she loves you enough to share you if she has to, plus she doesn't really know humans that well.
I think that after ME2 she would no longer be willing to share you.  She would either want it all or you'd just be a special friend, like how she saves your carcass even if you don't romance her.  I think she'd just accept that and move on, it doesn't change the good she did or make her less of a person in any way.  Asari live for so long, outlive so many partners, and all the while they are able to form this incredibly intimate and personal bond with each of them.  That would take a lot of psychological resiliency.

[vigna]

bjdbwea wrote...

I don't get this talk about optimism or pessimism. I prefer to be realistic. And that makes me think that BioWare has changed, and it's unlikely that we'll see a proper resolution to this ME 1 LI mess. Nor for that matter a continuation of the series that can keep up with the first part. Consequence will be that I don't buy the next game outright or at all.

But realism doesn't exclude hoping to be proven right or wrong, depending on what you wish for accordingly. Therefore it still makes sense to write your opinion down here, it's the only small chance at all to influence anything. Besides, this thread has been so far an enclave of proper and civilized discussion. Who cares about the number of pages?

I don't "care" as much as I find it odd. The pages in and of themselves don't really matter.

[Noxis6]

Driveninhifi wrote...
Well, that line made sense to me. She probably IS very good at putting clues together - she's got like 60+ years of experience doing it after all. Plus she probably wants to impress Shepard somewhat - remember that you are pretty much the most awesome person in the galaxy. And she is either in love with you or something very close to it, coupled with being terrified you will hate her.

I'm not sure how close she really is to the Shadow Broker though - since we don't know much about him. Sure, the threats are out of character, and she's probably done some unsavory things. So has Shepard, really - and so has she when she was with you in ME1. She is presented as a bit more ruthless and angry than I buy from her character though.
She at least does all her business in the open, face-to-face. And I doubt she's into all the really nasty stuff the Shadow Broker is into. He's pretty amoral and I have a hard time believe she would be. It's not like you see her hacking/killing innocent people. The Observer is clearly pretty nasty and all the other contacts are as well - you can infer at least that much from the fragmented info on them.

Might be to impress Shepard an I'm convinced she sure has the skills,also the whole hate thing might add to it,but also left me wondering she is so concerned over the whole thing with the corpse but not concerned that Shepard might have issues with what she is doing now.

As for how close she is to being like the Shadow Broker well thats pretty much up for debate also due to the fact that again the dialogues dont go far enough.
You could argue that doing her buisiness face to face might be because Illium is not part of council space and has not really the most strict law enforcement in the galaxy its actually pretty close to Noveria.
You can also speculate that Liara might have bribed the right people,honestly thats the only way I can see her being able killing her assistant and noone bothers.
As for her morals well,she was willing to kill five people to get the observer granted they were hardly innocent bystanders but still it might give some insight into this but it suffers like the whole scene from the lack of options for shepard,when that line came up I wanted Shepard to react to it but that never happened.
As for hacking stuff well I doubt thats something she would not do to get info on the shadow broker,killing innocents well I doubt she herself would do that but,you can argue she might do or has done it indireclty,since I assume if you want to have sucess in her buisiness you cant be to picky with your clients or just give out false information to people that might endanger innocents it would hurt her chances of success.
So you could conclude that she is going down the Shadow Brokers path quite a bit,though not for profit which seems to be his main driving force.

[Driveninhifi]

JPfanner wrote...
Seriously, after ME2 I could REALLY use some overly sappy Liara time : )
In my opinion, all of your alien squadmembers in both games weren't very respective of their species in a lot of personality ways.  Like how Garrus himself says that he doesn't think he is a very good Turian.  And I got that impression back in ME1.  Liara talks about how asari are open sexually and if you force that threesome she says that is acceptable for her.  But I don't think she's being a typical asari, I think she loves you enough to share you if she has to, plus she doesn't really know humans that well.
I think that after ME2 she would no longer be willing to share you.  She would either want it all or you'd just be a special friend, like how she saves your carcass even if you don't romance her.  I think she'd just accept that and move on, it doesn't change the good she did or make her less of a person in any way.  Asari live for so long, outlive so many partners, and all the while they are able to form this incredibly intimate and personal bond with each of them.  That would take a lot of psychological resiliency.

She's clearly not a typical asari. She's nothing like how most of them are described. She's a maiden that spent most of her life alone digging through ancient artifacts looking for clues. Just the fact that she couldn't let Shepard go shows she's very atypical.

As for sharing, I think you are right - she probably wouldn't want to share you in ME3, but I think it depends. If you romance Jack, she very clearly NEEDS Shepard. I don't really see Liara denying that - though I don't think Jack would be up for sharing at all.
I don't think she would be that angry or surprised if you hooked up with someone else; it makes far more sense for her to expect it and it to play into her guilt. She expects to be hated, after all. However, I do think she would take Shepard back eventually, and I think it makes sense for a Shepard that has no romance to be able to romance her in ME3.

If Shepard stays true to her, it makes more sense that they'd both attempt to figure out their relationship sooner rather than later. The fact that the two can join means this could potentially go a lot more smoothly than Ash/Kaidan hooking back up with Shepard. I think it would feel very false to not incorporate that.

Modifié par Driveninhifi, 26 février 2010 - 11:34 .

[JPfanner]

Yeah, and honestly for me I don't want Liara in ME3 to be reduced to the "threesome go to chick". So I'll admit to a bit of bias there in wanting to see her not willing to share you if there is a confrontation like you had in ME1.

[vigna]

OK, I'm replaying ME1. So when Liara first tells you that she interested in you for more than research she says it's odd. The way she says it is odd is strange. It made it appear that she wasn't just talking about how little you actually know each other or that you are human. It seems like she is drawn to you for some other reason--that I don't think is her ability to meld/join with you. It almost had a feeling of reincarnation or something.



Anyone else know what I'm talking about?

[Driveninhifi]

Noxis6 wrote...
Might be to impress Shepard an I'm convinced she sure has the skills,also the whole hate thing might add to it,but also left me wondering she is so concerned over the whole thing with the corpse but not concerned that Shepard might have issues with what she is doing now.

As for how close she is to being like the Shadow Broker well thats pretty much up for debate also due to the fact that again the dialogues dont go far enough.
You could argue that doing her buisiness face to face might be because Illium is not part of council space and has not really the most strict law enforcement in the galaxy its actually pretty close to Noveria.
You can also speculate that Liara might have bribed the right people,honestly thats the only way I can see her being able killing her assistant and noone bothers.
As for her morals well,she was willing to kill five people to get the observer granted they were hardly innocent bystanders but still it might give some insight into this but it suffers like the whole scene from the lack of options for shepard,when that line came up I wanted Shepard to react to it but that never happened.
As for hacking stuff well I doubt thats something she would not do to get info on the shadow broker,killing innocents well I doubt she herself would do that but,you can argue she might do or has done it indireclty,since I assume if you want to have sucess in her buisiness you cant be to picky with your clients or just give out false information to people that might endanger innocents it would hurt her chances of success.
So you could conclude that she is going down the Shadow Brokers path quite a bit,though not for profit which seems to be his main driving force.

Oh, I definitely agree she's not exactly presented as totally above the law or anything like that. You are definitely made to think "oh no, she's obsessed!" I'd bet the comic makes her more sympathetic though. Not doing it for her own self-aggrandizement speaks volumes in her favor.
As for killing Nyxeris, she could bride people, argue it's in self-defense, show evidence she worked for the Shadow Broker, etc. Laws seem pretty loose on Ilium and well-respected people can get away with a lot anywhere. She'd probably be well-respected just for being Benezia's daughter and on Shepard's crew - not to mention having lots of info.
But yes, the conversation in general suffers from a severe lack of development. It's a shame really, because there's so much unrealized potential. Unless the comic goes into how she built up her network (and it really doesn't have time to do so), it will be hard to believe she was able to do so in only two years. She's not exactly the most savvy person at the end of ME1, after all.

[Driveninhifi]

vigna wrote...

OK, I'm replaying ME1. So when Liara first tells you that she interested in you for more than research she says it's odd. The way she says it is odd is strange. It made it appear that she wasn't just talking about how little you actually know each other or that you are human. It seems like she is drawn to you for some other reason--that I don't think is her ability to meld/join with you. It almost had a feeling of reincarnation or something.

Anyone else know what I'm talking about?

I saw it as going with the whole "I don't understand these intense feelings I have for you" thing she has going on in ME1. I mean, she says she's never felt anything like her feelings for Shepard before (and she's lived over 100 years) - "Is this love? This is amazing" - that sort of thing. The two are sort of set up to be the perfect cosmic lovers, what with her getting the body and resurrecting Shepard.

[Heimdall]

vigna wrote...

OK, I'm replaying ME1. So when Liara first tells you that she interested in you for more than research she says it's odd. The way she says it is odd is strange. It made it appear that she wasn't just talking about how little you actually know each other or that you are human. It seems like she is drawn to you for some other reason--that I don't think is her ability to meld/join with you. It almost had a feeling of reincarnation or something.

Anyone else know what I'm talking about?

I haven't the faintest idea what your talking about but it does sound interesting:lol:

[Noxis6]

Driveninhifi wrote...
Oh, I definitely agree she's not exactly presented as totally above the law or anything like that. You are definitely made to think "oh no, she's obsessed!" I'd bet the comic makes her more sympathetic though. Not doing it for her own self-aggrandizement speaks volumes in her favor.
As for killing Nyxeris, she could bride people, argue it's in self-defense, show evidence she worked for the Shadow Broker, etc. Laws seem pretty loose on Ilium and well-respected people can get away with a lot anywhere. She'd probably be well-respected just for being Benezia's daughter and on Shepard's crew - not to mention having lots of info.
But yes, the conversation in general suffers from a severe lack of development. It's a shame really, because there's so much unrealized potential. Unless the comic goes into how she built up her network (and it really doesn't have time to do so), it will be hard to believe she was able to do so in only two years. She's not exactly the most savvy person at the end of ME1, after all.

Lack of options is really how you could summarize my main critizism of ME2.
I rather doubt that Benezias name still commands a lot respect I think she is regarded a traitor by now,but then again as many other things its never touched upon in the game.
But I agree I doubt the comic will really explain her rise to "power" from what I see it will propably end with her turning over Shepards body and maybe vowing to avenge Feron or something.
Overall I feel the comics will not really explain that much at least the first two issues left some things to be desired.
As for Liara not doing it for the money,yes thats something for the plusside,actually I hope they dont kill off the Shadow Broker in a DLC and repurpose some of the stuff from the cut content,that would really weaken her whole story and I think might cheapen the Shadow Broker a bit.

[Driveninhifi]

I don't think her avenging Feron is a good motivator to explain her actions. She's barely known the guy. She could be moved by his sacrifice, for sure, but it pretty much has to hinge on Shepard to make sense. There's gotta be something like she discovers the Shadow Broker is working closely with the Collectors, coupled with her guilt over Shepard + Feron, I don't know. There are definitely good explanations, we just haven't been given one yet.

But I agree on the comics not being great thus far.



As for DLC, they can solve a lot of the issues I have with the character if it's done well. I think that if she was the love interest, the relationship definitely has to come up and be a major conversation. However, I really hope they don't keep the idea that she can't join the Normandy since she has to read. That's pretty lame since it would be much for efficient to do so on the Normandy with EDI and Legion to help. Now, if Shepard encouraged her to stay on Ilium to help his/her cause, I could see it - but it would be important to illustrate she'd rather come along (especially in the love interest case).

It will really depend on whether they completely replace the missions as they stand with other ones, or if the DLC is meant to be postgame content. It makes more sense for it to be postgame really, because any reasons for her not joining the Normandy once the Shadow Broker is gone will probably seem incredibly contrived.

[Raanz]

Decided to do another Liara "action pose"...finished after work today.  Hope you guys like it.
High Rez version link


I'll go post it in the group boards

[Movodor]

Heh. Would be good to see a series of those.