50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

I think youre absolutely right screw.

There were probably a lot of agendas surrounding Liaras ME2 role:

Easy implementation
Cheap
Comic book tie in
Not upset newbs
Excuse her entirely from ME2

I dont think one of them was "Make sure to communicate subtly that Liara deep down is doing all for Shepard because she loves him".

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 08 avril 2010 - 06:27 .

[screwoffreg]

Hey, if they are rushing again I'll gladly work for free and write dialogue for Liara, lol.

[Eddie-Hawke]

screwoffreg wrote...

Hey, if they are rushing again I'll gladly work for free and write dialogue for Liara, lol.

Maybe then they would stop failing...

[screwoffreg]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

I think youre absolutely right screw.

There were probably a lot of agendas surrounding Liaras ME2 role:

Easy implementation
Cheap
Comic book tie in
Not upset newbs
Excuse her entirely from ME2

I dont think one of them was "Make sure to communicate subtly that Liara deep down is doing all for Shepard because she loves him".

Yeah, we have to ACCEPT that ME 2 was basically a restart of the series.  They said ME 1 was "a traditional Bioware game" (Which I like!) and ME 2 was more the game they envisioned (shooter focused with story layered on).  There were some ties and I think SOME decisions will be important in ME 3 that originate in the first game (Rachni and Council being the main ones).  For the most part they SCRAPPED everything from the first game though, even look at Conrad Verner! No matter what happened in ME 1 he goes the renegade "Im extreme" route...

[ratzerman]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
It's why I feel it's going to be tackled and handled extensively in the Liara DLC. It's their contrived way of maintaining the status quo into Liara's DLC, where we'll be able to comfort and console her, Liara will open her heart to Shep and we'll be able to rekindle the romance.

We all hope that will happen.  You make an excellenet agrument that it will happen.  Just please, for your own sanity's sake, prepare yourself for the possibility that it won't happen.... at least, not in DLC.  One way or another, Shepard and Liara will reconile eventually.  It's a three act love story, after all.  We'll get the happily ever after.

Just don't pin all your hopes on DLC, Les.  None of us want to see you get crushed.

[JPfanner]

screwoffreg wrote...
Yeah, Liara's story has plot holes bigger than most anything else in ME.

Everyone's story is pretty stupid though except for Wrex's, which is presented well, but ultimately pointless since you can just either pay the krogan to fight, or point them at something to kill and they'd do it.
Garrus is fighting the Reaper menace by engaging in assassination, piracy, and theft against Terminus Systems mercanaries.
Tali is like working on some Quarian Sole Survivor achievement by leading special ops groups to their deaths repeatedly.  She also doesn't stop the quarians from sending out scouts to try and find a derelict Reaper like Sovereign so they can use it to control the geth like Saren did.
Ashley/Kaiden are presumably working for Anderson against the Reapers.  But then refuse to come with Shepard, even after Shepard saves them personally, 2/3rds of the colony, drives off the ship, and then gets chewed out while standing on the corpses of the 40 husks, 20 collectors, 2 scions, and the praetorian they had to kill to drive off the ship in that one little area where the confrontation takes place.

[screwoffreg]

ratzerman wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
It's why I feel it's going to be tackled and handled extensively in the Liara DLC. It's their contrived way of maintaining the status quo into Liara's DLC, where we'll be able to comfort and console her, Liara will open her heart to Shep and we'll be able to rekindle the romance.

We all hope that will happen.  You make an excellenet agrument that it will happen.  Just please, for your own sanity's sake, prepare yourself for the possibility that it won't happen.... at least, not in DLC.  One way or another, Shepard and Liara will reconile eventually.  It's a three act love story, after all.  We'll get the happily ever after.

Just don't pin all your hopes on DLC, Les.  None of us want to see you get crushed.

We need to set expectations for the DLC.

Is the Liara romance going to significantly progress or change in the DLC? No, because the DLC is not required and its part of a seperate story dealing specifically with Liara and the SB.

Do I think it would be IMPORTANT to use the DLC to help at least lay the groundwork for a brighter future between Liara and Shepard?  At least get them to acknowledge "hey, there might be something we can salvage here?"

I think so, but then again no one cares what I think.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

No, but like I theorise it's to maintain the status quo that the pair of them are both unsure about the relationship with each other, and it will be tackled in the DLC and rekindled there. It's why it's never brought up. It's contrived, I know, but what else could they do? When Liara's reasons for wanting to hunt the SB are predominantly based on her love for Shepard, and all of the suffering and guilt she's endured because of what's happened with Shepard, that says to me there's a future when we finally get to frigging comfort her, and let her know she's loved and not to feel guilty.

Also, your taking her comment about it being years literally. I believe she was more referring to the scale of her task. If it gets to the point where she's getting nowhere and chasing shadows after a few years, then she's going to go back to Shepard. Liara's intelligent, she'd realise she's getting nowhere.

In fairness, I dont think we can excuse the shortcomings of Liaras cameo with hypothetical DLC. You would need to wait until its out and actually directly confronting the romance before you do that LET.

There is a reason why most people seem to take away from the cameo "Great, Darth Liara has got a spine now". Yeah, thats not the most logical way to present it, but there is some truth to the fact that all Liara has right now is the quest for the SB/Feron, and nothing else can get in the way, not even Shepard.

Samara was willing to put her hunt for Morinth on hold to join Shepard FFS, and shed been doing that about 200 times as long as Liara has been hunting.

Edit: Excuse the exagerration at the end there.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 08 avril 2010 - 06:35 .

[Noxis6]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

I think youre absolutely right screw.

There were probably a lot of agendas surrounding Liaras ME2 role:

Easy implementation
Cheap
Comic book tie in
Not upset newbs
Excuse her entirely from ME2

I dont think one of them was "Make sure to communicate subtly that Liara deep down is doing all for Shepard because she loves him".

And even in terms of comic book tie in they seem to have failed since there are contradictions.
I agree with many here the whole scene was rushed and has plotholes big enough for the entire reaper fleet

[screwoffreg]

Well, I never saw Liara as weak in ME 1 to where she needed to be over the top IM A MONSTER RARRR. She was naive, which made sense, and it was what made her so unique. She has killed before, obviously, even before she met Shepard. She fights even more at Shepard's side and sees some terrible things.

What was great about Liara was that she represented the innocence of the Galaxy, what little was left. Everyone else Shepard meets is a total monster in one way or the other and a justification could be made to kill pretty much everyone. They stripped Liara of that, which while a powerful device in some stories, in this case was (IN MY OPINION) so shoddily done that its a major turn off. The whole "180 turn" to the dark side CAN be done well and the redemption portion is always sweet to see (Prodigal son and all).

The bitter taste of how she was handled makes it hard for me to stomach her character now...to be honest I didnt like her at all in my first playthrough and beelined for Tali which was obviously the developers REAL purpose...to drive us into the arms of someone else by whatever means necessary.

Modifié par screwoffreg, 08 avril 2010 - 06:37 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Oh I dont think Liara "needed a spine", I think thats a trollish and idiotic way to put it, and each character can be sniped in such a way if someone chooses.

I just think the single minded goal Liara has at the expense of everything, even her relationship with Shepard, cant be ignored.

Its probably another one of ME2s attempts at "dark and edgy", and like all the rest comes across as cheap and stupid.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 08 avril 2010 - 06:39 .

[Noxis6]

JPfanner wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...
Yeah, Liara's story has plot holes bigger than most anything else in ME.

Everyone's story is pretty stupid though except for Wrex's, which is presented well, but ultimately pointless since you can just either pay the krogan to fight, or point them at something to kill and they'd do it.
Garrus is fighting the Reaper menace by engaging in assassination, piracy, and theft against Terminus Systems mercanaries.
Tali is like working on some Quarian Sole Survivor achievement by leading special ops groups to their deaths repeatedly.  She also doesn't stop the quarians from sending out scouts to try and find a derelict Reaper like Sovereign so they can use it to control the geth like Saren did.
Ashley/Kaiden are presumably working for Anderson against the Reapers.  But then refuse to come with Shepard, even after Shepard saves them personally, 2/3rds of the colony, drives off the ship, and then gets chewed out while standing on the corpses of the 40 husks, 20 collectors, 2 scions, and the praetorian they had to kill to drive off the ship in that one little area where the confrontation takes place.

I agree with most of that though the one thing on the Krogans I doubt they are overeager to be the meatshields of the council again

[screwoffreg]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Oh I dont think Liara "needed a spine", I think thats a trollish and idiotic way to put it, and each character can be sniped in such a way if someone chooses.

I just think the single minded goal Liara has at the expense of everything, even her relationship with Shepard, cant be ignored.

Its probably another one of ME2s attempts at "dark and edgy", and like all the rest comes across as cheap and stupid.

It wasn't even dark and edgy.  If you want dark and edgy read the comic series "Crossed".  Now that is depressing and shows the real nature of mankind in a horrible, horrible way...

[JPfanner]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...
In fairness, I dont think we can excuse the shortcomings of Liaras cameo with hypothetical DLC. You would need to wait until its out and actually directly confronting the romance before you do that LET.

There is a reason why most people seem to take away from the cameo "Great, Darth Liara has got a spine now". Yeah, thats not the most logical way to present it, but there is some truth to the fact that all Liara has right now is the quest for the SB/Feron, and nothing else can get in the way, not even Shepard.

Samara was willing to put her hunt for Morinth on hold to join Shepard FFS, and shed been doing that about 200 times as long as Liara has been hunting.

Edit: Excuse the exagerration at the end there.

Yeah, but both those examples aren't really comments on the characters themselves, but the poor writing.  Liara should come with you, or at least explain her reasons better for not.  Samara should say, "Blow." instead of abandoning the defining element of her entire freaking life to go through the Omega 4 relay that no one has ever returned from in recorded history.
Samara won't come with you until you get that ship's name.  Even then she won't be in top shape until you go back and resolve her life's quest.  You can't gun down the Shadow Broker for Liara.

[jlb524]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Also, your taking her comment about it being years literally. I believe she was more referring to the scale of her task. If it gets to the point where she's getting nowhere and chasing shadows after a few years, then she's going to go back to Shepard. Liara's intelligent, she'd realise she's getting nowhere.

Liara's already been searching for years and, from my interpretation of that line, doesn't plan on changing that. 

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

screwoffreg wrote...

It wasn't even dark and edgy.  If you want dark and edgy read the comic series "Crossed".  Now that is depressing and shows the real nature of mankind in a horrible, horrible way...

Oh dont worry, Ive read and watched and played real "dark and edgy" fiction, and let me tell you, ME2 it aint.

[screwoffreg]

JPfanner wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...
In fairness, I dont think we can excuse the shortcomings of Liaras cameo with hypothetical DLC. You would need to wait until its out and actually directly confronting the romance before you do that LET.

There is a reason why most people seem to take away from the cameo "Great, Darth Liara has got a spine now". Yeah, thats not the most logical way to present it, but there is some truth to the fact that all Liara has right now is the quest for the SB/Feron, and nothing else can get in the way, not even Shepard.

Samara was willing to put her hunt for Morinth on hold to join Shepard FFS, and shed been doing that about 200 times as long as Liara has been hunting.

Edit: Excuse the exagerration at the end there.

Yeah, but both those examples aren't really comments on the characters themselves, but the poor writing.  Liara should come with you, or at least explain her reasons better for not.  Samara should say, "Blow." instead of abandoning the defining element of her entire freaking life to go through the Omega 4 relay that no one has ever returned from in recorded history.
Samara won't come with you until you get that ship's name.  Even then she won't be in top shape until you go back and resolve her life's quest.  You can't gun down the Shadow Broker for Liara.

It makes Liara seem incredibly petty.  Yeah, she has a business, but so what? The first person you bonded with, the one you dreamed would come back, is likely going to their death and EVERYONE else can put aside their personal feelings and quests (Grunt, Thane, Jack, Tali, etc) and give everything to stand with Shepard.  Hell, look at Thane.  Why wouldn't he want to spend his last days with his SON rather than risk death for someone he doesn't know?

[jlb524]

screwoffreg wrote...

Do I think it would be IMPORTANT to use the DLC to help at least lay the groundwork for a brighter future between Liara and Shepard?  At least get them to acknowledge "hey, there might be something we can salvage here?"

I think so, but then again no one cares what I think.

I agree with what you think, I just don't believe that they'll go to the trouble of adding Liara romantic content in DLC when not everyone had her as a LI in ME1 or if they did, were possibly unfaitful to her and picked up a new one in ME2.  It's extra content most won't see, and they'll just be pandering to the fans of one LI.  People will cry 'foul' and 'unfair' b/c they didn't get a 'Take Tali/Garrus/Miranda/etc. on a date' DLC as well.

[screwoffreg]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

It wasn't even dark and edgy.  If you want dark and edgy read the comic series "Crossed".  Now that is depressing and shows the real nature of mankind in a horrible, horrible way...

Oh dont worry, Ive read and watched and played real "dark and edgy" fiction, and let me tell you, ME2 it aint.

The worst part is there was no hint of a darker nature or inclination in the first game for Liara, which would make good plot sense to foreshadow.  In that case, it would be understandable and still tragic, but at least consistent.  It comes so far out of left field that one can only assume "Shes nuts!!!" which is what most players do.  I am sure statistics will show most everyone cheated on her and for good reason if you don't look deeper and see the flaws behind her story.

[JPfanner]

Noxis6 wrote...
I agree with most of that though the one thing on the Krogans I doubt they are overeager to be the meatshields of the council again

I honestly think they'd moan and complain, but when you walk around Tuchanka or talk to Grunt, that's ALL they ever talk about is killing stuff.  If they don't have other things to kill, then they kill themselves.  I don't think it'd take much persuading if it meant they got to kill stuff, especially if it was a worthy enemy like the Reapers, since the concept of a worthy enemy is pretty important to them culturally.
That's also why I think that Wreav will provide any "krogan benefits" in ME3 that Wrex does.  Otherwise it wouldn't be "fair".

[bjdbwea]

@ LesEnfantsTerribles

Your view is very optimistic, but your conclusions from what we have seen and heard could of course be correct as far as Liara as a character is concerned.

However, you need to realize that everything that will enfold in the future depends on what the writers at BioWare decide. Or anyway, what their superiors tell them to implement. And that's the actual problem. All that we have seen tells us that they don't care about Liara, her character, old fans, not even about coherence, consistency and logic. Maybe we also have to accept that they just aren't the good writers we thought they were. And if Awakening is anything to draw conclusions from, they could just as well be dropping the concept of romances in their games altogether.

Those are the actual problems, not a botched scene here or there. Even if your assessment of Liara's character is logical, that means little for any prediction of future DLCs, expansions or games. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't get your hopes up so high, or the disappointment will be even greater. I know, that's the effect ME 2 had on me. I have accepted it now for what it is, and that BioWare is gone. Nothing will surprise me anymore from them, and since I don't have any expectations, nothing they do can disappoint me again. I'm not saying you should adopt that view, in fact your positive attitude is very refreshing. But you should be prepared for anything.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 08 avril 2010 - 06:59 .

[screwoffreg]

I do sympathize somewhat with the writers as I am sure no artist of any kind desires to "eh, let me half ass this". I think it was a function of deadlines and the like and perhaps they really did the best they could...which as we see wasn't very good.

See, i am trying to defend you guys!!!! (who aren't reading this anyway!)

Modifié par screwoffreg, 08 avril 2010 - 06:49 .