50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Erinlana]

screwoffreg wrote...

Well, I never saw Liara as weak in ME 1 to where she needed to be over the top IM A MONSTER RARRR. She was naive, which made sense, and it was what made her so unique. She has killed before, obviously, even before she met Shepard. She fights even more at Shepard's side and sees some terrible things.

What was great about Liara was that she represented the innocence of the Galaxy, what little was left. Everyone else Shepard meets is a total monster in one way or the other and a justification could be made to kill pretty much everyone. They stripped Liara of that, which while a powerful device in some stories, in this case was (IN MY OPINION) so shoddily done that its a major turn off. The whole "180 turn" to the dark side CAN be done well and the redemption portion is always sweet to see (Prodigal son and all).

The bitter taste of how she was handled makes it hard for me to stomach her character now...to be honest I didnt like her at all in my first playthrough and beelined for Tali which was obviously the developers REAL purpose...to drive us into the arms of someone else by whatever means necessary.

She is weak in a cute way but she has all the potential:wizard:

[Noxis6]

JPfanner wrote...
I honestly think they'd moan and complain, but when you walk around Tuchanka or talk to Grunt, that's ALL they ever talk about is killing stuff.  If they don't have other things to kill, then they kill themselves.  I don't think it'd take much persuading if it meant they got to kill stuff, especially if it was a worthy enemy like the Reapers, since the concept of a worthy enemy is pretty important to them culturally.
That's also why I think that Wreav will provide any "krogan benefits" in ME3 that Wrex does.  Otherwise it wouldn't be "fair".

Yeah I think so too while not realistic,but I guess even if you have been as much of a jerk as a renegade can be the whole galaxy will still march into certain death for you.

[JPfanner]

screwoffreg wrote...
It makes Liara seem incredibly petty.  Yeah, she has a business, but so what? The first person you bonded with, the one you dreamed would come back, is likely going to their death and EVERYONE else can put aside their personal feelings and quests (Grunt, Thane, Jack, Tali, etc) and give everything to stand with Shepard.  Hell, look at Thane.  Why wouldn't he want to spend his last days with his SON rather than risk death for someone he doesn't know?

You only start with Miranda and Jacob though.  Everyone else has to be recruited by resolving a personal issue for them to get them on the team.  Then you have to do another for their loyalty which is only optional if you're trying to get people killed.  If you could resolve Liara's situation she'd come along, just like if you could persuade or demonstrate to Ashley/Kaiden that the Collector/Reaper threat needed to be stopped and Cerberus was the lesser concern for now.  And you can't do either of those.  It just sucks that the characters themselves take the brunt of that for the poor writing.  No one moans about Tali blowing you off on Freedom's Progress.

That Thane thing actually always makes me laugh.  He spends all that time moaning about what a failure at a husband and father he was.  Then he goes through all that effort to make up for it.  Then takes off and leaves his son in police custody for attempted murder to go on a suicide mission.

[screwoffreg]

JPfanner wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...
It makes Liara seem incredibly petty.  Yeah, she has a business, but so what? The first person you bonded with, the one you dreamed would come back, is likely going to their death and EVERYONE else can put aside their personal feelings and quests (Grunt, Thane, Jack, Tali, etc) and give everything to stand with Shepard.  Hell, look at Thane.  Why wouldn't he want to spend his last days with his SON rather than risk death for someone he doesn't know?

You only start with Miranda and Jacob though.  Everyone else has to be recruited by resolving a personal issue for them to get them on the team.  Then you have to do another for their loyalty which is only optional if you're trying to get people killed.  If you could resolve Liara's situation she'd come along, just like if you could persuade or demonstrate to Ashley/Kaiden that the Collector/Reaper threat needed to be stopped and Cerberus was the lesser concern for now.  And you can't do either of those.  It just sucks that the characters themselves take the brunt of that for the poor writing.  No one moans about Tali blowing you off on Freedom's Progress.

That Thane thing actually always makes me laugh.  He spends all that time moaning about what a failure at a husband and father he was.  Then he goes through all that effort to make up for it.  Then takes off and leaves his son in police custody for attempted murder to go on a suicide mission.

Even after the loyalty quests though there are still compelling reasons for certain members of your crew to leave as their lives are actually too important.

Look at Grunt.  His genetics might be a great boon to his people.  If he dies, well then it sets back the Krogan.

Tali is seen as a growing force in Quarian politics and potentially a major voice in the days to come.  If she dies, the decision is left to insane people like Admiral Xen.

Thane we mentioned.

Mordin has incredible amounts of research to contribute in the years he has left, being one of the only people who could cure the Genophage

Etc, etc etc.  Liara's reasons seem shallow and weak compared to everyone else.  She isn't helping Shepard except in the sense that "im going to beat up this bully for you" and worse, the Shadow Broker doesn't even try to impede the Commander's progress at all during the game.  His threat is greatly overstated and he is probably waiting to pick sides...I am assuming once the SB sees the Collectors are extinct, he will quickly try to change his tune...

[Noxis6]

screwoffreg wrote...
The worst part is there was no hint of a darker nature or inclination in the first game for Liara, which would make good plot sense to foreshadow.  In that case, it would be understandable and still tragic, but at least consistent.  It comes so far out of left field that one can only assume "Shes nuts!!!" which is what most players do.  I am sure statistics will show most everyone cheated on her and for good reason if you don't look deeper and see the flaws behind her story.

Yeah thats one of the biggest problems with it everyone else of the old squadmates seemed to be consistant with what he/she was in the first game,even in case of a paragoned Garrus I could still understand him going on his killing spree.
It comes seemingly out of nowhere and personally I also feel it was done for the sake of having to be "dark and edgy".
The comic also adds no explaination,Liara is basicly different from page one,it doesnt even give an explaination as to why she goes to Omega or how she found out Shepards body was well lets say intact going by the Normandys explosion I dont blame the rest of the old for thinking Shepard dead and gone

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

This is why I think there was a backlash at the comic. Issue 4 presented a real opportunity to give Liara some more "oomph" in the reasoning department. To give her something that can be read in her comments, but at the same time only fleshed out in the end of Redemption.



Instead it simply retreated over what we had already been told in Liaras crappy cameo and brought all those bad feelings to the surface once more.

[Marcin K]

as soon as i'm off doing some stuff not related to my PC or Macintosh i see pages start to grow less optimistic and what's more important pics-less, i'm gonna fix that right now giving you:



Liara in all her greatness and beauty

____

and having done so i hereby go OFFLINE for night, cya all tomorrow mornin, have a great night, stay optimistic and dream about Liara:)

[Noxis6]

screwoffreg wrote...
Even after the loyalty quests though there are still compelling reasons for certain members of your crew to leave as their lives are actually too important.

Look at Grunt.  His genetics might be a great boon to his people.  If he dies, well then it sets back the Krogan.

Tali is seen as a growing force in Quarian politics and potentially a major voice in the days to come.  If she dies, the decision is left to insane people like Admiral Xen.

Thane we mentioned.

Mordin has incredible amounts of research to contribute in the years he has left, being one of the only people who could cure the Genophage

Etc, etc etc.  Liara's reasons seem shallow and weak compared to everyone else.  She isn't helping Shepard except in the sense that "im going to beat up this bully for you" and worse, the Shadow Broker doesn't even try to impede the Commander's progress at all during the game.  His threat is greatly overstated and he is probably waiting to pick sides...I am assuming once the SB sees the Collectors are extinct, he will quickly try to change his tune...

I agree on the SB part I wouldnt be suprised in case he doesnt get casually gunned down by Shepard in a DLC,if he would want to make a deal with him/her even for the SB the reaper invasion is bad news

[jlb524]

justinnstuff wrote...

I also find it funny that the way Kasumi was designed, she's a better assassin. Kasumi is supposed to be a thief, not a full blown assassin. She's the one with a cloak and backstab ability and ninja like reflexes. Thane gets shredder ammo and no cloak/death action.

All of Kasumi's abilities are like, super awesome.  I think I'm going to take her with me forever.

Back to JP's point.....I agree that no one as a better or worse reason for joining or not joining you for this mission.  It's just easier to create brand new characters that do not have a past history with Shepard and then they have to worry about carrying over things that happened with them in the previous game.  Tali/Garrus didn't have much going on in ME1 as far as a relationship with Shepard, and the one thing that did happen with each (Tali and the Geth data/Garrus and his revenge) didn't even carry over.  They just didn't want to deal with the potential relationship variables from Ash/Kai/Liara in ME2 so they got the cameo hammer.

[ratzerman]

Marcin R wrote...

as soon as i'm off doing some stuff not related to my PC or Macintosh i see pages start to grow less optimistic and what's more important pics-less, i'm gonna fix that right now giving you:

Liara in all her greatness and beauty
____
and having done so i hereby go OFFLINE for night, cya all tomorrow mornin, have a great night, stay optimistic and dream about Liara:)

I had this image (the whole one, not the crop) as my desktop for a good six months after ME came out.  It's still my favorite "official" image Bioware has ever produced for Liara.  Everything about her in this pic is perfect.

[Asheer_Khan]

What IF... SERIOUS WILD SPECULATION:

Shadow Broker is some kind renegade reaper or what's more possible representative of the other more evil Dark Reaper faction which try to enter milky way via artofficial worm hole created by imploding Haelstrom sun?



Maybe Harbinger reapers have some sort of DNA rescue mission?

Think about it... if that circle is so old that even 38 million year old reaper egsist then no galactic civilizations should egsisting in time of ME 1 after so many cycles.



remember that even what Vigil says is based on Prothean scientists assumptions and very few data that they manage to collect about reapers and more over Sovieregin stated plainly that he is vanguard of the destruction when Harbinger speaks about SALVATION through destruction...



And that last talk of Harbinger to Shepard in C base mission...

"Human you change nothing... now your species have attention of those infinitely greater... and chose bitter way of your salvation through destruction" ... is really strange since we already draw reapers attention to humanity since Citadel battle...

So what if there is second more dark reaper faction underway about which we have not a slightest idea at this moment but our actions made them aware about humanity level of advancement so made us a obvious target too?

Reapers are machines which follow pure logical way of comprehending and for example Harbinger Reapers do have mission to preserve as much DNA as possible before those Dark Reapers will arrive, and who known... maybe that human Reaper was consider as some sort DNA bank which will be used to reestablish human species after end of "harvest time" and this entire current mess was a result of permanent lack of ability to serious communication?



But on the other hand maybe i try to find something behind that picture what don't egsist at all.

[JPfanner]

I think no one has a good reason to go on the suicide mission. Blindly go through a relay that no ship in recorded history has ever returned from, to take out super advanced aliens on the other side that have who knows what waiting there?. With a frigate and a dozen foot soldiers?

Amazingly, it just so happens to work out swell thanks to the power of plot contrivance. Realistically you wouldn't have to worry about the Collector's abducting the crew after the IFF, because everyone would have jumped off the short bus express long before then.

Can you imagine actually explaining your plan to a total stranger and them ever agreeing to come along? You could argue that Ashley, Kaiden, Liara, and Wrex are demonstrating intelligence and sanity by not coming along.

[JPfanner]

jlb524 wrote...
Back to JP's point.....I agree that no one as a better or worse reason for joining or not joining you for this mission.  It's just easier to create brand new characters that do not have a past history with Shepard and then they have to worry about carrying over things that happened with them in the previous game.  Tali/Garrus didn't have much going on in ME1 as far as a relationship with Shepard, and the one thing that did happen with each (Tali and the Geth data/Garrus and his revenge) didn't even carry over.  They just didn't want to deal with the potential relationship variables from Ash/Kai/Liara in ME2 so they got the cameo hammer.

Even crazier is not recruiting Garrus at all in ME1. 
In ME2, the Garrus that was with Shepard when they became the first human Spectre, that stood by Shepard when everything happened on Therum, Noveria, Feros, Virmire, and Ilos, who was there when Saren and Sovereign were stopped from destroying galactic civilization is the SAME Garrus that was told to go to hell in that clinic on the Citadel.

[surf_N7]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

What you also have to remember is that the threat to galaxy at large isn't as imminent as it was back in ME1. Sovereign was literally knocking on the Citadel's door, the Reapers were mere minutes away from pouring through the Citadel relay, and it really was the eve of galactic extinction.

In ME2 that's not the case. The danger to the galaxy currently isn't as great. It gives room for characters like Liara, Ash, Kaidan and Wrex, characters who all spoke to Sovereign on Virmire and listened to Vigil on Ilos, leeway in that they all have important jobs to do, or that they have a personal problem. I'm sure if the threat to the galaxy was imminent like it was with Sovereign, Liara would drop everything and go with Shepard straight away. As it stands though, the threat isn't. Plus, do you not think it makes the characters of Liara, Ashley, Kaidan and Wrex stronger in that they don't come running to Shep's feet like a lapdog when he/she whistles? In some respects, Liara is different from the rest because she actively expresses a desire to go with Shep again, but can't because of her suffering, her guilt, her pain. If we were able to comfort Liara, which we're prevented from doing, then she'd be back on the Normandy.

hands down you must be the biggest supporter of liara.

[Simotech]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

What you also have to remember is that the threat to galaxy at large isn't as imminent as it was back in ME1. Sovereign was literally knocking on the Citadel's door, the Reapers were mere minutes away from pouring through the Citadel relay, and it really was the eve of galactic extinction.

In ME2 that's not the case. The danger to the galaxy currently isn't as great. It gives room for characters like Liara, Ash, Kaidan and Wrex, characters who all spoke to Sovereign on Virmire and listened to Vigil on Ilos, leeway in that they all have important jobs to do, or that they have a personal problem. I'm sure if the threat to the galaxy was imminent like it was with Sovereign, Liara would drop everything and go with Shepard straight away. As it stands though, the threat isn't. Plus, do you not think it makes the characters of Liara, Ashley, Kaidan and Wrex stronger in that they don't come running to Shep's feet like a lapdog when he/she whistles? In some respects, Liara is different from the rest because she actively expresses a desire to go with Shep again, but can't because of her suffering, her guilt, her pain. If we were able to comfort Liara, which we're prevented from doing, then she'd be back on the Normandy.

I'm glad to see you're still here...you were quite yestreday...

[Asheer_Khan]

Sheeesh... after rereading what i posted some stuff related to final section of the game starting to make sense.
Stage First : Reaper IFF - What if we get WRONG Reaper IFF?
For us and TiM this was just old dead reaper but what if that was such Dark Reaper?

Stage Second : Activation of such device which apparently start transmitting ID of someone who should NOT being here and thats why Collectors who apparently are able to track those signals moved to intercept Normandy.
For me one of the questions was why Collectors bother to abducted crew instead of completely destroyed Normandy since they have her on the golden plate?
So question is - what if Harbinger realized that this IFF did draw attention of someone else and following his directive ordered attack and abduction to (as he tough) save those crew members from another more deadly attack...

Stage Third - Omega 4 jump.
IF this IFF was real device then defence system around that base should remain inactive and let Normandy reach her without any problems.
But apparently that IFF device belongs to Harbinger's enemy faction and obviously flagged Normandy as HOSTILE OBJECT triggered because of that reaction of the defence system.

I wouldn't be surprised if in ME 3 we will find themselfs "sandwiched" between two Reaper factions but on the other hand my theory could be as same logic as theory about blooming life on the Mercury ^^.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 08 avril 2010 - 07:49 .

[Noxis6]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

What you also have to remember is that the threat to galaxy at large isn't as imminent as it was back in ME1. Sovereign was literally knocking on the Citadel's door, the Reapers were mere minutes away from pouring through the Citadel relay, and it really was the eve of galactic extinction.

In ME2 that's not the case. The danger to the galaxy currently isn't as great. It gives room for characters like Liara, Ash, Kaidan and Wrex, characters who all spoke to Sovereign on Virmire and listened to Vigil on Ilos, leeway in that they all have important jobs to do, or that they have a personal problem. I'm sure if the threat to the galaxy was imminent like it was with Sovereign, Liara would drop everything and go with Shepard straight away. As it stands though, the threat isn't. Plus, do you not think it makes the characters of Liara, Ashley, Kaidan and Wrex stronger in that they don't come running to Shep's feet like a lapdog when he/she whistles? In some respects, Liara is different from the rest because she actively expresses a desire to go with Shep again, but can't because of her suffering, her guilt, her pain. If we were able to comfort Liara, which we're prevented from doing, then she'd be back on the Normandy.

I dont know if we really can go with the reapers being not an imminent threat as an excuse for all this,sure Sovereign was destroyed,but that doesnt mean its over anyone who thinks that just because there is no physical reaper presence in the galaxy,is tbh not really smarter then the council.
And the whole thing with collectors harversting human colonies I dont know but it should make the people who know about the reapers maybe worry at least.
Also one thing on Wrex I think he would go with you,if the whole Krogan uniting thing wouldnt fall apart the moment he leaves.
Anyway the reapers are on the way now and have the initiative in this war now,they will strike first the galaxy can only react now,I wonder where they will strike