50907 réponses à ce sujet

[IndigoWolfe]

Man, I take a look in here and what do I find? I find the people here talking about how "inferior" Male Shepards are, how FemaleShepard/Liara is "way better" than MaleShepard/Liara, about how Male Shepard will dump Liara the first chance he gets and stuff coming close to outright sexism.

Really people?

Really?

Really?

I was gonna post another preview image of my art piece, but I think I'll just check back tomorrow. But seriously people, I honestly thought that this thread wouldn't come to this. Maybe I should start thinking about finding another thread...

I need a drink and I need to go read Prince Of Shadows again.

Modifié par IndigoWolfe, 08 avril 2010 - 11:46 .

[Jack Package]

Male Shepard is awesome

[jlb524]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

That's all very good Jayla, but I'm talking about Liara's guilt for handing Shepard's body over to Cerberus in the first place, the fact that Liara beats herself up over viewing herself as doing it for selfish reasons, because she "couldn't let you go." That's the guilt I'm talking about, and the reason why Liara is afraid Shepard will hate her, because she handed the body over to the enemy.

I thought your theory was that the guilt built over time or she was hiding it from Miranda?  Initially, Liara feels guilty b/c she chose a dead body over a living person.  Over time, she also realizes guilt for handing over Shepard's body for selfish reasons and b/c she's sure Cerberus is doing some crazy things to Shepard's corpse.

[Jack Package]

Hehehe, in case Indigo returns tomorrow at least I won't miss anything.^^

Here in Germany ist es late already, 2 AM, so I'm out, good night.

[scmadsen]

I've only skimmed the last twenty pages or so, so forgive me for anything I repeat. I thought I'd try to lay all this out logically from both sides. Another one of my long ass posts no one reads, which is better then the short ones no one reads, am I right...anyway, here goes.

What we see in ME1 of Liara is something I've laid out before, and I'll try to spare you all the details and summarize it. Bare with me, as I try to explain this, there is a point to it. I will state upfront though, that we shouldn't have to look at things this hard, and infer things the writers themselves most likely didn't think of, just to understand what happens around us.

We see Liara, a young woman, for an Asari. She's been physically alone for more then half her life, and mentally alone for the other half. Physically was an act of "teenage" rebellion against her mother, who was/is a powerful biotic and political figure, enough so that even the Asari Councilor knows/knew her by voice alone. That says something in a race likely numbering in the hundreds of billions with perhaps millions of Matriarchs.

We can infer that Liara grew up in what could best be called a court lifestyle. She likely had servants, riches, and anything she wanted. But she never had friends. Other Asari, while respecting her mother, looked down on her for being a pureblood. She had to suffer stares and whispers and being praised to her face while being stabbed in the back verbally. She was being groomed to be a Matriarch one day and take over her mother's wealth and power. Liara was the princess locked in a tower for half her life, never knowing friendship or love, knowing only duty and what was to be expected of her from others.

This made Liara reject that life, she wanted something that was her own, she wanted to do something that made her happy. This speaks of her character, she's strong under adversity. She also wanted to make a statement to her mother. So she became an archeologist and studied the past, ignoring the future her mother wanted for her. Not only did Liara do this, but she became very good at it, she figured out in fifty years what others had not in thousands. This shows Liara is a genius. However, again, Liara was not accepted on her own merits. She was rejected because of her age this time.

Liara doesn't know what happened to her "father" and thus is left to wonder if it was because of who is she. She will never know, but given what she has been thru in her life, we can infer that she thinks it was because of some fault with her, most noticeably her being a pureblood.

If Liara was not romanced, or was romanced and then not picked, she suffers yet another rejection in her life, a pretty major one, as it is clear she never loved anyone before she fell for Shepard. You can already see the pattern here, can't you.

Liara's life has been full of rejection. Rejected at court, rejected by her mother as just a tool and not a daughter, rejected by her father, rejected by her academic peers, rejected by her first love.

Does this explain perhaps her guilt over Feron and a need to help him? Does she feel bad for rejecting his advances? If Shepard wasn't her lover, then it might explain that. Is it that simple to explain the end of the comic and her drive in game to find Feron, at the cost of Shepard and the rest of the galaxy?

Does this explain Liara's fear upon seeing her lover again? Does she fear rejection from Shepard, for what she did, what she has become? Is it as simple as that, to explain the scene we are given? Does she have feelings for Feron, and fears rejection from Shepard if that was found out when they meld again?

We see in the comic, that Laira rejects the advances of Feron, but in the end Feron saves her and Shepard. She rejected him, but he saved her none the less. What does that do to Liara? Does it make her care for him? If she loves Shepard, does she feel something for Feron now too? Should Shepard be jealous when this is found out, what will it mean for Liara and Shepard?

Does it mean she wants to meld with Feron, perhaps not, but we saw how quickly she had a crush on Shepard after saving her life in ME1...it is not unreasonable for Liara to have a crush on Feron now. Would and should Shepard be jealous over this? Is it cheating, being unfaithful? Does Liara feel bad for letting Shepard go, wanting to bury him, and moving on?

It has been two years, has the void left by Shepard been filled with Feron? We see her cast Shepard aside and stay on her search for Feron. Like it or not, this says something. As does her pulling away from the kiss. The one we thought she had been waiting for, walks back into her life, but she can't let Feron go.

She speaks of not being able to let Shepard go, but that was the body, that was laying Shepard to rest...she couldn't let that go, but the comic shows that at the end, she did let Shepard go. She lets Shepard go once more in game, off to die without a word. It's now Feron she can't let go of, when Shepard is back and right in front of her.

Does Liara care for Feron now, is she willing to let Shepard go for him? She seems to do this, and it is very painful. She is the one doing the rejecting now.

Now, I hate myself for thinking all this, but you have to look at this. This is clearly something there, is it friendship or something more? Liara has feelings for Feron one way or the other, and those feelings are strong enough, that she lets Shepard go. At the end of the comic, and in game. Pretty damning stuff.

Could it be as simple as some want to believe, that Liara fears the rejection of Shepard? For the whole Cerberus thing? We aren't truly allowed to explore Shepard's reaction to this news, so perhaps it can be said that Liara doesn't know how Shepard feels about it, but on the other hand, we do reply to her on this subject, so it can be said she does know.

We all thought, that Liara was doing this for Shepard, that Liara spent the last two years knowing that she couldn't be with Shepard because of a deal that kept her way, we now learn there was no such deal. Liara could even of stayed by Shepard's side if she wished. But she left and let go, to chase after Feron and the Shadow Broker.

Was the reason only Feron, or was it also because of what was done to Shepard? Liara doesn't say anything about the Collectors, who were the ones that killed Shepard. She only speaks of the Shadow Broker, who is guitly of only three things, leading Liara on a wild chase, perhaps holding Feron, and stealing Shepard's body.

Lets face it, Feron should be dead, there is zero reason to keep him alive. Liara is chasing a dead man as she did with Shepard. She even gives up Shepard for Feron.

I set out writing this, to find something postive to say, and in the end it keeps coming to back to what it seems. I can't let that damn ending of the comic out of my mind. It's there, it's real, we have to deal with it, and all ramifications.

If we halfway ignore the comic, we are left with a Liara that has spent the last two years hunting the Shadow Broker because he stole Shepard and killed her friend. She wants revenge. Is it for Shepard or for Feron, or both?

Taking the comic, we know Liara has nothing holding her to Illium but herself, no deal, no debts to Cerberus for the cost of bringing Shepard back to life. No search for information about the Collectors. She wants revenge and she wants to find Feron.

Shepard comes back, and she embraces, but then casts aside, and goes back to her hunt. She lets Shepard go, that's what hurts so much. She doesn't offer any words to her once lover, as they go off to die.

Modifié par scmadsen, 09 avril 2010 - 12:20 .

[jlb524]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

I do, I was just fishing for Jayla's thoughts and opinions. My theory is that Liara does feel guilty for handing over Shepard's corpse for selfish reasons, but lies to herself and Miranda for the sake of her own conscience, pretending that she's doing it for Shepard's benefit, when it's really because she wants Shepard back because she can't let him/her go. She's putting up token resistance, and lying to herself in order to soothe her own guilty conscience.

Of course, the context in which she says it is easily interpreted that Liara is worried that Shepard will be brought back as some undead zombie husk monstrosity, and that's also playing into her guilt too.

Her guilt has many levels, it seems.  She must be miserable.  

[surf_N7]

i've been avoiding doing work....

[surf_N7]

Somebody1003 wrote...

surf_N7 wrote...

i've been avoiding doing work....

When I looked over the horizon of Illium it made me wish that we had a larger area to explore.

Illium looked so great.

yeah true that. its really disappointing that there isn't one place in me2 that is as explorable and elaborate as me1's citadel.

[mrbeavis19]

surf_N7 wrote...

Somebody1003 wrote...

surf_N7 wrote...

i've been avoiding doing work....

When I looked over the horizon of Illium it made me wish that we had a larger area to explore.

Illium looked so great.

yeah true that. its really disappointing that there isn't one place in me2 that is as explorable and elaborate as me1's citadel.

They wanted to cut down on the time it took to travel around cause I'm sure lots of people complained about getting around too slow on the Citadel in the beginning of ME1, they did however take that idea way to far in ME2.

[JaylaClark]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I thought your theory was that the guilt built over time or she was hiding it from Miranda?  Initially, Liara feels guilty b/c she chose a dead body over a living person.  Over time, she also realizes guilt for handing over Shepard's body for selfish reasons and b/c she's sure Cerberus is doing some crazy things to Shepard's corpse.

I do, I was just fishing for Jayla's thoughts and opinions. My theory is that Liara does feel guilty for handing over Shepard's corpse for selfish reasons, but lies to herself and Miranda for the sake of her own conscience, pretending that she's doing it for Shepard's benefit, when it's really because she wants Shepard back because she can't let him/her go. She's putting up token resistance, and lying to herself in order to soothe her own guilty conscience.

Of course, the context in which she says it is easily interpreted that Liara is worried that Shepard will be brought back as some undead zombie husk monstrosity, and that's also playing into her guilt too.

And I confuse things by going off to eat dinner after that post of mine, too.

I think that the way she says what she says does imply that she's worried about zombieShepard -- and in the mini-fic that I've decided to actually take some time to do it right, I'm probably going to work those glowing red eyes in as a dig at that -- but it's not necessarily just that.

I think some context is needed about my viewpoint, by the way.  (It really would've helped GuardianAngel470 if he'd explained his experiences before posting his theories.  No fooling, they almost made sense in context.)  What you need to understand about me, is that even though I like to call myself a recovering Catholic, I still let the more spiritual side of the church color my viewpoints without apology.  This is why ... wait for it ... my favorite movie of a certain trilogy is Matrix Revolutions.  And why I love the Kid, aka Faith Never Wavered (versus Morpheus's Faith Tested and Niobe's Faith Gained.  Oh, and Locke's Thomas.  Could you tell?  But I digress).

So, I believe that we go someplace when we die.  As do my Shepard's, so I always use that 'atheist in a foxhole' line.  Whether Liara believes in anything else... that's not explored very well, is it?  At least not in the games; they mention siari and the Goddess worship, but they never say what Liara believes personally.  So I may be projecting this, but I think it's reasonable to think that Liara may believe in an afterlife.

Having said that, when Miranda tells Liara how far gone Shepard is, I still think she might be thinking, and it pokes through her admitted selfishness to emerge as words, that "Oh my Goddess, Shepard is probably already gone, to ... wherever (s)he's going to, and I'm going to let them bring him/her back from there?  Or will they even remake 'him'/'her', or will it just be a pale imitation... and what will that do to the real him/her, wherever (s)he is?"

This is just my opinion, by the way.  This sadly would also amplify an issue that I had with the game -- being dead and being undead doesn't faze Shep as much as she should be fazed.  But I do have a reason why Liara wouldn't admit that specific fear -- how do you say to someone, "Okay, are you a zombie?  Did you see an afterlife?  Was my mom there?  Is that a good thing or a bad thing?"  ... and so on.

[jlb524]

Liara's emotional state of mind is like a black box. It's hard to figure out what the heck is going on in there and the comic book/ME2 game narrative isn't helping much. It seems that her emotional state is also complex/multi-layered given all that's happened to her recently.

[mrbeavis19]

Somebody1003 wrote...
They had friggin transport hubs!

The citadel was great in ME1, I loved to walk around on it.

It seems that way now that we're confined to 3 floors and a couple rooms connected by transport hubs, but you know at some point on a later playthrough of ME1, you were like "come on elevator" or something to that effect during your adventures on the Citadel in the beginning. I'm not defending the cut down in ME2, I think it's atrocious, I'm just trying to explain what I think their reasons were (as much as I don't agree with them<_<).