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Support Liara T'Soni for ME3 - Squadmate and LI


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#15126
Guest_Cartims_*

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scmadsen wrote...

@ my detractors

I'm being a pessimist about this whole thing, I'll own up to that, and it doesn't help I'm in a dark place from the comic, and from listing to the Cowboy Bebop soundtrack all day long, but it's better to expect the worst, only to be proven wrong. It's all subjective, how you view ME2 at this point. I'm not gonna argue, nor was that my point. I'm not alone in my thoughts or feelings, so I'm not crazy, I know that much. I hope I'm wrong though.

I will say, one more time, that's not Liara, it's her writers. They are doing this, the comic did this, I never once blamed her character, as this is all out of character for her, from what we know in the first game. But they write her, and they can say she changed in two years, and we'd have to accept it. Open your eyes to that fact, and my quest is over.

I put out the theory but that doesn't mean I believe it, like it, or wish it so. Not at all, I want the opposite. Prove my theory wrong without subjectives, and I'll be happy. In fact, that's what I want you to do. I need someone to do that. I posted my own thoughts to disprove it, but that was mostly ignored thus far.


It is what YOU want it to be....simple

#15127
JaylaClark

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scmadsen wrote...

@ my detractors

I'm being a pessimist about this whole thing, I'll own up to that, and it doesn't help I'm in a dark place from the comic, and from listing to the Cowboy Bebop soundtrack all day long, but it's better to expect the worst, only to be proven wrong. It's all subjective, how you view ME2 at this point. I'm not gonna argue, nor was that my point. I'm not alone in my thoughts or feelings, so I'm not crazy, I know that much. I hope I'm wrong though.

I will say, one more time, that's not Liara, it's her writers. They are doing this, the comic did this, I never once blamed her character, as this is all out of character for her, from what we know in the first game. But they write her, and they can say she changed in two years, and we'd have to accept it. Open your eyes to that fact, and my quest is over.

I put out the theory but that doesn't mean I believe it, like it, or wish it so. Not at all, I want the opposite. Prove my theory wrong without subjectives, and I'll be happy. In fact, that's what I want you to do. I need someone to do that. I posted my own thoughts to disprove it, but that was mostly ignored thus far.


I think the main problem is with the fact that the story isn't solid, like I said... it's very difficult to disprove everything with objective facts.  And I also think that you got to your opinion subjectively -- to repeat myself, I got something entirely different from the two major trouble spots in the comic that you did.  You're worried, I think, because you're automatically applying the worst possible meaning to things.  I'm not saying your interpretations aren't valid, but I'm saying that they themselves are interpretations.

What we need is to go over what we need answered, and look for what facts and opinions are available.  We can't go by the facts alone, sadly, because I really don't think we've seen all of them -- and maybe we can't.  Maybe the facts are all or partly like Schrödinger's Cat, and they have to change based on the Shepard.

Modifié par JaylaClark, 09 avril 2010 - 03:06 .


#15128
jlb524

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We just need DLC or ME3 to resolve this NAO!



I think scmadsen has as much right to be pessimistic as Enfants has to be optimistic, though.

#15129
JaylaClark

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jlb524 wrote...

We just need DLC or ME3 to resolve this NAO!

I think scmadsen has as much right to be pessimistic as Enfants has to be optimistic, though.


Agreed, as long as they remember we're all on the same side.  And that we're all entitled to our opinions.  And also they should not hate each other and give each other hugs.  (Thanks again wingedmoggy!)

#15130
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JaylaClark wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

We just need DLC or ME3 to resolve this NAO!

I think scmadsen has as much right to be pessimistic as Enfants has to be optimistic, though.


Agreed, as long as they remember we're all on the same side.  And that we're all entitled to our opinions.  And also they should not hate each other and give each other hugs.  (Thanks again wingedmoggy!)

We are not allowed those freedoms here.:unsure:

I was bashed yesterday for saying something.

#15131
scmadsen

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I don't hate anyone but the writers. Hate is even a strong word. More like don't understand and dislike them.

Modifié par scmadsen, 09 avril 2010 - 03:05 .


#15132
JaylaClark

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scmadsen wrote...

I don't hate anyone but the writers.


Aaaand?  *opens arm towards you, extends one to les... SO implying 'group-hug'...*

#15133
jlb524

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*group hug*

#15134
scmadsen

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*makes the group hug awkward by grabbing some booty*  :whistle::innocent:

#15135
JaylaClark

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jlb524 wrote...

*group hug*


... I'll feel very silly if les has gone to sleep by now and I'm still waiting...

#15136
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jlb524 wrote...

*group hug*

Me too?:o

#15137
JaylaClark

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scmadsen wrote...

*makes the group hug awkward by grabbing some booty*  :whistle::innocent:


*leaps!*  Hey!

#15138
ratzerman

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Les is probably asleep, so I'll accept the hug on his behalf. *hugs*

#15139
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JaylaClark wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

*group hug*


... I'll feel very silly if les has gone to sleep by now and I'm still waiting...

Hes been alseep, its like 4am for him.

Modifié par Somebody1003, 09 avril 2010 - 03:10 .


#15140
scmadsen

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JaylaClark wrote...

scmadsen wrote...

*makes the group hug awkward by grabbing some booty*  :whistle::innocent:


*leaps!*  Hey!


:P<3

#15141
JaylaClark

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Somebody1003 wrote...

JaylaClark wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

*group hug*


... I'll feel very silly if les has gone to sleep by now and I'm still waiting...

Hes been alseep, its like 4am for him.


Hope so.  Oh wells, I luvs him anyway.  And sc, and you, and jlb, and even Stubbs-who-is-hiding-in-the-Waffles-group ^_^.

#15142
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JaylaClark wrote...

Somebody1003 wrote...

JaylaClark wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

*group hug*


... I'll feel very silly if les has gone to sleep by now and I'm still waiting...

Hes been alseep, its like 4am for him.


Hope so.  Oh wells, I luvs him anyway.  And sc, and you, and jlb, and even Stubbs-who-is-hiding-in-the-Waffles-group ^_^.

Hes still there?

I saw him there last week all the time.:lol:

#15143
Sunnie

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Chiming in sort of late in the conversation, but after following it for the last couple hours I felt I needed to add my 2 credits worth.



I am so far out on the fence with this and very confused as to what to think. But there is one thing I am not confused about, and that is how angry I am becomming at the writing. There are holes and contradiction a plenty between what we have been presented in the game and the story in the comic series. Things that just don't jive, like Liara's story started off being written by one person, then was taken over by someone else with a whole different view on things. That is how it seems anyway, at least for me. I don't expect everyone to agree, but there it is.

I am starting to really doubt that I will like where they are taking us with Liara, it seems like we are being yanked around and led down opposing paths. And by the Goddess I hope they do something to give us real answers, in game. I hope I am not sounding too pessamistic, I am just so emotionally involved at this point which could be good or bad.

#15144
scmadsen

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We do agree though, whatever our standpoint, that the whole thing is subjective, and thus none of us are wrong. It's a pointless argument, and we can debate this in circles all day long and get no where. I say we just let it drop and see what happens.

I worry the writers will make Liara fall for Feron...or it could just be she's given into revenge and fears what Shepard is now, and feels worried she ripped her love from an afterlife that might be a better place, all because she wanted her lover back and couldn't let go.

Lets hope that is what it is, and not let the comic fracture our little group.

Modifié par scmadsen, 09 avril 2010 - 03:15 .


#15145
JPfanner

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@scmadsen

Sure, but every character, up to and including Shepard, is at the whim of the writers.  That is pretty much the theme of ME2 with the very narrow and shallow plot that every character in the game is forced to follow.  And maybe it was that way in ME1 too, but we didn't notice it because everything was new.  Then it is simply noticeable to us in ME2 because that game fails so utterly on so many levels as a continuation of what has been established before.

Nothing really changed with the ending of the comic.  We were all hoping it'd provide some answers to what didn't make sense in the game.  It didn't.  And I mean EXACTLY that, there are no answers, whether positive or negative.  The comics and Liara's presentation in the game each suck on their own, exclusive of the other.  That isn't great and it sucks for us, but that's what we've got so far.  I don't know about how comics are written, but I'd guess Mac wrote out a general script for the comics that only had a few specific lines of dialog and most of it was generalized stuff like stage directions.  So examining the exact wording or facial expressions in each panel and comparing them to the game just isn't going to work.  Like "Liara shows some concern over handing Shepard's body to Cerberus and regret for what happened to Feron"  is then scripted by the comics writer into stuff that'll fit into those little bubbles.

Liara just can't come with you because of design decisions.  They tried to come up with a reason why not.  The romance was specifically excluded from as much screen time as possible.  They didn't even bother to come up with a reason for that, everyone not mentioning it at all was good enough for some crazy assed reason.  The romance is "rocky" because no one talks about it at all?  How does that even work, that's like some freaking plot from an episode of the Twilight Zone.  Any character reasons we try to come up for her not coming, not talking about the relationship, sitting there while you leave her office without saying, they aren't going to make sense.  Shepard doesn't say things that they should.  Why don't Miranda, Tali, or Garrus say hi to Liara?  There's no reason for that except the only motivation that could affect all characters across the board which is just frankly laziness on Bioware's part.

Really the only things that changed for me with the ending of the comic is that now I think Dark Horse has some writers and design people of the same professional calibre as Bioware does.  And I won't be buying that four comic compilation.  Other than that, everything is pretty much the same as it was the day before the comic came out.
But you know all of this stuff, and you've posted much the same several times.  Just don't let the stupid ass comic sucking get you down too much.

#15146
scmadsen

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@JPfanner



Good advice, and I'll take it.

#15147
JaylaClark

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JPfanner wrote...

@scmadsen

Sure, but every character, up to and including Shepard, is at the whim of the writers.  That is pretty much the theme of ME2 with the very narrow and shallow plot that every character in the game is forced to follow.  And maybe it was that way in ME1 too, but we didn't notice it because everything was new.  Then it is simply noticeable to us in ME2 because that game fails so utterly on so many levels as a continuation of what has been established before.

Nothing really changed with the ending of the comic.  We were all hoping it'd provide some answers to what didn't make sense in the game.  It didn't.  And I mean EXACTLY that, there are no answers, whether positive or negative.  The comics and Liara's presentation in the game each suck on their own, exclusive of the other.  That isn't great and it sucks for us, but that's what we've got so far.  I don't know about how comics are written, but I'd guess Mac wrote out a general script for the comics that only had a few specific lines of dialog and most of it was generalized stuff like stage directions.  So examining the exact wording or facial expressions in each panel and comparing them to the game just isn't going to work.  Like "Liara shows some concern over handing Shepard's body to Cerberus and regret for what happened to Feron"  is then scripted by the comics writer into stuff that'll fit into those little bubbles.

Liara just can't come with you because of design decisions.  They tried to come up with a reason why not.  The romance was specifically excluded from as much screen time as possible.  They didn't even bother to come up with a reason for that, everyone not mentioning it at all was good enough for some crazy assed reason.  The romance is "rocky" because no one talks about it at all?  How does that even work, that's like some freaking plot from an episode of the Twilight Zone.  Any character reasons we try to come up for her not coming, not talking about the relationship, sitting there while you leave her office without saying, they aren't going to make sense.  Shepard doesn't say things that they should.  Why don't Miranda, Tali, or Garrus say hi to Liara?  There's no reason for that except the only motivation that could affect all characters across the board which is just frankly laziness on Bioware's part.

Really the only things that changed for me with the ending of the comic is that now I think Dark Horse has some writers and design people of the same professional calibre as Bioware does.  And I won't be buying that four comic compilation.  Other than that, everything is pretty much the same as it was the day before the comic came out.
But you know all of this stuff, and you've posted much the same several times.  Just don't let the stupid ass comic sucking get you down too much.


Comic writers usually write out the whole issue frame-by-frame, and technically, if Mac is the only credited writer, you'd assume he did that... but he's not a comic writer by trade, so I'm open to the artistic-interpretation interpretation.  (Which gave us such gems as the Batmobile tearing a police car in half in All Star Batman and Robin.  That wasn't scripted by a long shot.)

I still see what's written as answers, though, but they're very subjective, because of the limitations of the media and Mac's inexperience in it.  If it were a novel, he could've gone into Liara's head and used a page on what she's thinking when she says X.  Instead, she says something, and we're reading into the words a million different interpretations based on what we're expecting.  It's too subjective to be a satisfying answer.

Further, yet again, Schrodinger's Cat applies.  The comic had to deal with a player character that may have yelled as many obscenities at LiLi that the game lets you, and then it had to deal with player characters that we have.  (I presume we're all Liarasexuals of the 'faithful' kind in at least one of our saves?  Though Anya's flirting up a storm.)  It has to be vague by design, and that doesn't make for satisfying answers anyway.  Heck, WCS and BCS both make a sort of sense, and neither are objectively valid, nor can they be.

So, yeah, I think that we're still lacking for answers.  I don't actively think that Mac didn't care about us, but I don't personally think he spent enough time on us, so my sig stays as is for now.  I do think that the content coming out is likely to add more answers... but I don't know that they'll be satisfying ones.

#15148
JaylaClark

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scmadsen wrote...

@JPfanner

Good advice, and I'll take it.


Very good.  Me too, also.  *jumps on wise bandwagon*

#15149
JPfanner

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scmadsen wrote...

@JPfanner

Good advice, and I'll take it.

Yeah, I wasn't arguing or anything.  Just makes me sad to see you kind of down when you were all upbeat before.  And that comic isn't worth getting down about that much.  It does suck a bit because it could have been better, Liara deserved better, and not too selfish to think that we deserved better.  But any Liara fan can endure a few bruises after ME2.

#15150
scmadsen

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Upbeat puts it mildly, I think. I was a pretty rabid defender of Liara. Something I think some people forget.