50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Unata]

Yeled wrote...

Unata wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Liara's dedicated social group also has a large, active fan-base. I just wonder if the devs pay attention to this kind of stuff?

I didn't frequent the old forums, but I guess it wasn't much different then. And what good did it do for ME 2? The developers obviously couldn't care less, except for some reassuring posts before release so that everyone buys the game before learning what they did to their favourite characters.

I think they did all this ME1 LI damage stuff just to prevoke people into leaving their me1 LI's and get slammed in ME3 for it big time while those still loyal get awesomeness.....wishfull thinking?

Probably.  I think they did the ME1 LI damage because they wanted to provoke people into leaving because they thought they were being extremely clever, and maybe didn't truly understand what it was that really immersed their fans in their universe or made them care about their character.  They hadn't done a true sequel in a while, and certainly not one that was set up as a trilogy.  And both ME2 and Dragon Age Awakenings suffer from much the same problem:  They removed the main character from all the relationships and trappings that players had spent hours and hours building up.  Is it a surprise that a certain section of their hardcore fanbase feels disconnected and disappointed, then?

If I were planning a trilogy I would use the second chapter to build up relationships, not tear them down.  What began in chapter 1 as a passionate relationship born out of trying times could have been made stronger and more intimate as it withstood the test of time or crumbled under new pressures and changing circumstances, depending on player decisions.  This is what we were truly hoping for, and what many of us spent two years waiting for.  Instead we had these relationships ripped away in the name of "players-will-be-rewarded-for-remaining-faithful" and "suicide-mission-so-any-squadmate-could-die" gimmicks.

Its such a wasted opportunity for some truly epic storytelling that was squandered for the sake of new players unfamiliar with the first installement and the path of least resistence when it came to implementing complicated decision matrices.

Makes you wonder what they are actually making an RPG or a Shooter, this "hybred" thing doesn't go to well when they do as you say "They removed the main character from all the relationships and trappings that players had spent hours and hours building up." makes the whole thing up to this point wierd.

You should apply to be their storyline editor, slap some sense into them heh

[Unata]

rvayda141 wrote...

I can understand Liara's change in personality, and even shepard's lack of emotion during the reunion. Liara was the only member of the crew from ME1 that really had no where else to go, and when shepard died and the normandy was destroyed she obviously didnt know what to do with herself and her new grief, because she obviously loves shepard whether you love her back or not. She gets wind of shepard's body and uses that as a way to try and find closure, but then cerberus tells her he might still live. After she gives them the body, shes left without any direction again, and chooses to focus her feelings on the SB, choosing to take anger over grief and he knowledge even if shepard does come back, he might hate her for giving her to cerberus
As for shepard, when s/he sees what liara has become, s/he probably blames his/herself for ow she became. Coupled with the fact that everyone tells shep s/he wont make it through the suicide mission, shepard probably doesnt want to try and open up to liara, because she obviously wouldnt be able to handle losing him again.
While this is all fine and good, being that ME is a video game and not a book. its harder to convey these emotions, and harder for us to read between the lines to see them when the scene is so sub-par, especially from what we would expect from bioware.
Short of reading so deep into the scene, something most are not inclined to do during a video game, we are left feeling severely disappointed at the lack of a spark between shepard and liara now and the apparent lack of anything to tell us there ever was one

That's really alot for BW to have the player assume when with the other two it's plain to see, there is still hope, with Liara we just don't know

[Unata]

Back a bit later, family stuff to deal with..gimme time to ponder Liara while driving in the rain...

[Yeled]

rvayda141 wrote...

Short of reading so deep into the scene, something most are not inclined to do during a video game, we are left feeling severely disappointed at the lack of a spark between shepard and liara now and the apparent lack of anything to tell us there ever was one

I think its unreasonable for BioWare to expect us to read deeply into a scene such as this to understand the subtle emotional motivations behind the characters' behaviors when they don't really do anything to show those subtle emotional motivations.  A lot of what we think is based on what we want to see, or our desperate need to find some sort of explanation when none was provided in the scene.  I have very little confidence that our best explanations correspond with BioWare's thinking on these matters.

[Yeled]

Unata wrote...

You should apply to be their storyline editor, slap some sense into them heh

If only I could...if only I could. 

[bjdbwea]

Larask wrote...

Well, ME is a lot more than graphics. One thing that I hate about ME2 (aside from the horrible LI reunion), is that we know almost everything that there is to know about the main plot by the time you get in the Normandy, while in ME1 there was always something new on each  world. The fact that you landed on Virmire or Feros etc.. w/o any idea of what was going to happen, was always cool. And the crew meeting after  each mission also held a great level of curiosity. To see the crew working together to figure out what was happening was way better than being told all the time by TIM.

Very true. The story telling and pacing in ME 1 is so much better on so many levels, it's astonishing. How people even can deny this, is beyond me. ME 1 set new standards, I always thought (and hoped) it was like a glimpse into the future / next generation of video games. To see the very same company then taking so many steps back was very disappointing, even though I know the reasons (in short: EA).

[jlb524]

bjdbwea wrote...

Very true. The story telling and pacing in ME 1 is so much better on so many levels, it's astonishing. How people even can deny this, is beyond me. ME 1 set new standards, I always thought (and hoped) it was like a glimpse into the future / next generation of video games. To see the very same company then taking so many steps back was very disappointing, even though I know the reasons (in short: EA).

The pacing with squad mate dialog and romance was better as well, as it was tied into the plot.  Squad mates also commented on plot specifics in ME1, unlike ME2.

In ME2, you can rush through squad mate dialog/romance if you'd like, and they barely comment on any missions.

[wolf99000]

well what they did with the me1 LI worked most of the talk on here is about it plus the 2nd game is probably the hardest thing to write as the first is introducing the world and the second is the happy ending

[Sunnie]

Unata wrote...

I want that face in my cabin picture frame ^

As Leliana would say, "I can do that for you!"

[Sunnie]

bjdbwea wrote...

Very true. The story telling and pacing in ME 1 is so much better on so many levels, it's astonishing. How people even can deny this, is beyond me. ME 1 set new standards, I always thought (and hoped) it was like a glimpse into the future / next generation of video games. To see the very same company then taking so many steps back was very disappointing, even though I know the reasons (in short: EA).

Unfortunately, the purist FPS players screamed about the combat in ME1 so loudly that BW ended up making "Masses Effect 2". I certainly think ME had a much deeper focus on the RPG aspect and the story. Sadly, a 5 pound bag can only hold 5 pounds. Add more FPS to the bag and something else has to spill out, and that was the depth of the story and the RPG elements. Hell, if they wanted to take out the combat part all together and just make it a 40 hour interactive movie set in an open game world, I would pay double!

[bjdbwea]

Sunnie22 wrote...

Hell, if they wanted to take out the combat part all together and just make it a 40 hour interactive movie set in an open game world, I would pay double!

Yeah. You know, I would already have paid double if necessary, if they just had made ME 2 the game it should've been. Because of DRM I only bought ME 1 later, so I got it quite cheap. But the game itself is so good, it would be worth double the normal price. If they had now said: "We have to put so much work into ME 2, and record so much VO, but we want to make a worthy successor and aim to create the best gaming experience ever. Unfortunately, we have to postpone the release for a year, and charge 80 bucks for it", then I would have said: "Great news! I'll gladly buy it on release day." But that's probably just me, everyone else was screaming to "finally" get the game.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 12 avril 2010 - 07:13 .

[Yeled]

Sunnie22 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

Very true. The story telling and pacing in ME 1 is so much better on so many levels, it's astonishing. How people even can deny this, is beyond me. ME 1 set new standards, I always thought (and hoped) it was like a glimpse into the future / next generation of video games. To see the very same company then taking so many steps back was very disappointing, even though I know the reasons (in short: EA).

Unfortunately, the purist FPS players screamed about the combat in ME1 so loudly that BW ended up making "Masses Effect 2". I certainly think ME had a much deeper focus on the RPG aspect and the story. Sadly, a 5 pound bag can only hold 5 pounds. Add more FPS to the bag and something else has to spill out, and that was the depth of the story and the RPG elements. Hell, if they wanted to take out the combat part all together and just make it a 40 hour interactive movie set in an open game world, I would pay double!

I would too.  A 40 hour interactive movie-game without combat would be kind of cool.  They could even do combat-like dialogue options (threaten someone, shoot someone, etc)  on the dialogue wheel and have their success or failure be based on how many points you've allocated to a violent actions  trait or whatever.

[Titan the Green]

wolf99000 wrote...

if you think about it they cut a ton of stuff from the game with the comics being made the whole legion helping liara find your body and staking you from the start of the game so much so the game where liara is concerned does not make that much sense   /SNIP 

Wha???   Where is this from?  

Could this be why Legion won't/can't say where it got your N7 armor from?  

[Unata]

Titan the Green wrote...

wolf99000 wrote...

if you think about it they cut a ton of stuff from the game with the comics being made the whole legion helping liara find your body and staking you from the start of the game so much so the game where liara is concerned does not make that much sense   /SNIP 

Wha???   Where is this from?  

Could this be why Legion won't/can't say where it got your N7 armor from?  

Yes please elaborate, I know about the dialog on the Shadow Broker, but Legion??? 

[Erinlana]

Titan the Green wrote...

wolf99000 wrote...

if you think about it they cut a ton of stuff from the game with the comics being made the whole legion helping liara find your body and staking you from the start of the game so much so the game where liara is concerned does not make that much sense   /SNIP 

Wha???   Where is this from?  

Could this be why Legion won't/can't say where it got your N7 armor from?  

didn't he get it from your body after it enter orbit  the planet shephard was found on ?

[CheesesackIII]

Unata wrote...

Titan the Green wrote...

wolf99000 wrote...

if you think about it they cut a ton of stuff from the game with the comics being made the whole legion helping liara find your body and staking you from the start of the game so much so the game where liara is concerned does not make that much sense   /SNIP 

Wha???   Where is this from?  

Could this be why Legion won't/can't say where it got your N7 armor from?  

Yes please elaborate, I know about the dialog on the Shadow Broker, but Legion??? 

It was the original opening for ME 2. I'm not an expert, and someone can probably explain it better than me, but from what I gather, for the first mission, you played as Legion. You boarded the Shadow Broker's personal ship, the Shadowthrone to retrive Shepard's body from storage. En-route, you meet up with Liara who's there to accomplish a similar thing. They form an uneasy alliance, but eventually, Liara escapes with Shepard's body and Legion is left behind. I can't recall how he escapes, but the ship is destroyed, and that's how he gets so badly damaged.

[UFOash]

CheesesackIII wrote...

Unata wrote...

Titan the Green wrote...

wolf99000 wrote...

if you think about it they cut a ton of stuff from the game with the comics being made the whole legion helping liara find your body and staking you from the start of the game so much so the game where liara is concerned does not make that much sense   /SNIP 

Wha???   Where is this from?  

Could this be why Legion won't/can't say where it got your N7 armor from?  

Yes please elaborate, I know about the dialog on the Shadow Broker, but Legion??? 

It was the original opening for ME 2. I'm not an expert, and someone can probably explain it better than me, but from what I gather, for the first mission, you played as Legion. You boarded the Shadow Broker's personal ship, the Shadowthrone to retrive Shepard's body from storage. En-route, you meet up with Liara who's there to accomplish a similar thing. They form an uneasy alliance, but eventually, Liara escapes with Shepard's body and Legion is left behind. I can't recall how he escapes, but the ship is destroyed, and that's how he gets so badly damaged.

Wow, I'd never heard of this.
Where did you get this?
EDIT: Also I think Legion says he got hit on Eden Prime looking for Shepherd

Modifié par UFOash, 12 avril 2010 - 08:09 .

[CheesesackIII]

UFOash wrote...

CheesesackIII wrote...

Unata wrote...

Titan the Green wrote...

wolf99000 wrote...

if you think about it they cut a ton of stuff from the game with the comics being made the whole legion helping liara find your body and staking you from the start of the game so much so the game where liara is concerned does not make that much sense   /SNIP 

Wha???   Where is this from?  

Could this be why Legion won't/can't say where it got your N7 armor from?  

Yes please elaborate, I know about the dialog on the Shadow Broker, but Legion??? 

It was the original opening for ME 2. I'm not an expert, and someone can probably explain it better than me, but from what I gather, for the first mission, you played as Legion. You boarded the Shadow Broker's personal ship, the Shadowthrone to retrive Shepard's body from storage. En-route, you meet up with Liara who's there to accomplish a similar thing. They form an uneasy alliance, but eventually, Liara escapes with Shepard's body and Legion is left behind. I can't recall how he escapes, but the ship is destroyed, and that's how he gets so badly damaged.

Wow, I'd never heard of this.
Where did you get this?

Oh man, I can't remember. Some guy discovered it, there was a thread about it a while ago. Not sure where he got it from, but it was legit. They cut it because they thought it would be too confusing, and playing as a Geth killing humans was too much of a reversal of roles.

Edit;
Legion does say that, but that's because they changed the storyline to provide a new explanation.

Modifié par CheesesackIII, 12 avril 2010 - 08:12 .

[Yeled]

CheesesackIII wrote...

Unata wrote...

Titan the Green wrote...

wolf99000 wrote...

if you think about it they cut a ton of stuff from the game with the comics being made the whole legion helping liara find your body and staking you from the start of the game so much so the game where liara is concerned does not make that much sense   /SNIP 

Wha???   Where is this from?  

Could this be why Legion won't/can't say where it got your N7 armor from?  

Yes please elaborate, I know about the dialog on the Shadow Broker, but Legion??? 

It was the original opening for ME 2. I'm not an expert, and someone can probably explain it better than me, but from what I gather, for the first mission, you played as Legion. You boarded the Shadow Broker's personal ship, the Shadowthrone to retrive Shepard's body from storage. En-route, you meet up with Liara who's there to accomplish a similar thing. They form an uneasy alliance, but eventually, Liara escapes with Shepard's body and Legion is left behind. I can't recall how he escapes, but the ship is destroyed, and that's how he gets so badly damaged.

To add to this, Liara removes Shep's armor in order to get her into some kind of transport and that is where Legion gets the N7 armor from.  Originally he would have explained this, but instead they changed all this so you got a non-answer from him.  This all comes from a forum post a supposed former BioWare employee made.  It seems accurate but no one is sure its authentic.  You can find it here.

[jlb524]

Cheesesack summed it up nicely. This original Liara/Legion plot was described by a former dev or writer who's no longer with BW. It was cut b/c it was deemed too unaccessible for players new to the series.

[bjdbwea]

I dislike being forced to play with another character. But it surely sounds more interesting than the intro we have now. All these debates with TIM throughout the game feel like placeholders to me, when more interesting cutscenes involving more characters should happen.

[Unata]

UFOash wrote...

CheesesackIII wrote...

Unata wrote...

Titan the Green wrote...

wolf99000 wrote...

if you think about it they cut a ton of stuff from the game with the comics being made the whole legion helping liara find your body and staking you from the start of the game so much so the game where liara is concerned does not make that much sense   /SNIP 

Wha???   Where is this from?  

Could this be why Legion won't/can't say where it got your N7 armor from?  

Yes please elaborate, I know about the dialog on the Shadow Broker, but Legion??? 

It was the original opening for ME 2. I'm not an expert, and someone can probably explain it better than me, but from what I gather, for the first mission, you played as Legion. You boarded the Shadow Broker's personal ship, the Shadowthrone to retrive Shepard's body from storage. En-route, you meet up with Liara who's there to accomplish a similar thing. They form an uneasy alliance, but eventually, Liara escapes with Shepard's body and Legion is left behind. I can't recall how he escapes, but the ship is destroyed, and that's how he gets so badly damaged.

Wow, I'd never heard of this.
Where did you get this?
EDIT: Also I think Legion says he got hit on Eden Prime looking for Shepherd

The hole in his stomach was gotten at Eden Prime he says, but never why or how he got the shoulder armor.

[CheesesackIII]

Somebody1003 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Cheesesack summed it up nicely. This original Liara/Legion plot was described by a former dev or writer who's no longer with BW. It was cut b/c it was deemed too unaccessible for players new to the series.

Thats stupid to think of the new players, anyone that gets into ME should play ME1 first.<_<

True. ME 1 is so cheap now, plus it's a great game an unlocks extra content in ME 2 (side mission you can't do without importing a save). I don't really see anyone playing ME 2 without playing ME 1 first, or buying it after playing ME 2.