50907 réponses à ce sujet

[piemanz]

screwoffreg wrote...

I think the fundamental problem with Liara's character is that her motivation for supposedly being vengeful is so thin and her rise so inexplicable, that it can give reason for  ANY number of theories and almost ANYTHING seems plausible. She could be a good girl trapped in a bad situation OR Bioware could conceivably take it to "I AM POWERMAD AND SIT UPON A THRONE OF SKULLS".

The fact there is no indication as to which is reality other than our supposition gives rise to the notion that either Bioware has some incrediblely well crafted explanation to reveal...or that they just needed to make her unattractive or else people would have never tried the new romances.

Whether or not it is "true", as canon in game, the fact that the general perception is that she is power mad and "bad" among I would say most players (look at the reactions outside this thread) indicates that was likely Bioware's goal. If Liara had run up to you and showered you in kisses and thrown a party in your honor, like the story of the Prodigal Son's return, then why would anyone be motivated to "try" Jack/Miranda/Tali/Garrus etc? It would have cut down on the reasons for being in a new romance. It also would have "confused" players who never did an ME 1 playthrough, as they would wonder who this weird woman is and why she is so nuts over you..

I cant be bothered to type a new reply so i'm just going to quote something i posted regarding the redemtion comics...

Piemanz wrote...
I don't know what everyone is being  so negative about...

The story in the redemption comics made sense to me in that it gives a background on how liara got your body back,and how feron helped her.

Obviously shes been working on taking down the shadow broker for 2 years so when you meet her on Illium shes not just going to drop 2 years of her life to come with you, especially as she thought you were dead.

Feron may still be alive and even if he's not he probably saved her life aswell as yours so i understand why she would want to avenge him.

And lastly, i think this is the biggest hint for upcoming Liara DLC yet.At the end of the comic it says 'To be continued in mass effect 2', and since mass effect 2 was realeased 3 months before this comic and really did not continue the story, rather give a brief summary of the comic, i assume that means it will be continued in a DLC.

I think the DLC will involve taking down the shadow broker and/or finding out feron is still alive.

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

The most unbelievable part about this series is how suddenly Liara becomes a "badass action girl". This kind of story may have worked if it was Garrus who recovered Shepard's body, but it just seemed really awkward and agitating using Liara.

Bare in mind she's just fought saren the reapers and the geth, been on the normandy while it's destroyed, and then finds out shepards dead.On top of that she then finds out not only is he dead she now has to go and recover his dead body from being kidnapped.

I think it's fair to assume she's a little peeved and distressed.....

Modifié par piemanz, 16 avril 2010 - 03:44 .

[Noxis6]

Systemlord Baal wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...
Bioware could conceivably take it to "I AM POWERMAD AND SIT UPON A THRONE OF SKULLS".

THAT isn't, wasn't and will never be in Liara's character. She's totally different from that and it will (imo) never be plausilbe for her to get to a point where she thinks that way. BW would totally **** up should they develop her that way and they know it. It just isn't possible for Liara to think like that.

Mac Walters might disagree with you on that<_<

With Liara its really like everything goes and if you look closely her storyline and the whole revenge thing are really weak,part of it might have been making her unattractive for the sake of the new romances.
All in all that whole chasing Feron is basicly chasing a dead man,there is no reason any of the parties involved would keep him alive,the Collectors have no use for him and the SB lets just say I dont think he keeps prisoners for two years
Also why doesnt the SB do something he is nearly aphatetic about the whole thing aside from sending Nyxeris to spy on her,it makes no sense if you look at Fist who messed with him on a tiny scale compared to Liara

[screwoffreg]

Noxis6 wrote...

Systemlord Baal wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...
Bioware could conceivably take it to "I AM POWERMAD AND SIT UPON A THRONE OF SKULLS".

THAT isn't, wasn't and will never be in Liara's character. She's totally different from that and it will (imo) never be plausilbe for her to get to a point where she thinks that way. BW would totally **** up should they develop her that way and they know it. It just isn't possible for Liara to think like that.

Mac Walters might disagree with you on that<_<

With Liara its really like everything goes and if you look closely her storyline and the whole revenge thing are really weak,part of it might have been making her unattractive for the sake of the new romances.
All in all that whole chasing Feron is basicly chasing a dead man,there is no reason any of the parties involved would keep him alive,the Collectors have no use for him and the SB lets just say I dont think he keeps prisoners for two years
Also why doesnt the SB do something he is nearly aphatetic about the whole thing aside from sending Nyxeris to spy on her,it makes no sense if you look at Fist who messed with him on a tiny scale compared to Liara

I think people are missing my point here.  Of course LOGICALLY it doesn't follow that Liara is that way, nor would I want it to be. 

Look at it like this.  In a new game of ME 2, with no import, Wrex is dead and several decisions that might have carried over, like the Council, are turned Renegade to leave no traces to the first game.  They can't KILL Liara, but they can marginalize her to the extent that she becomes a non-issue in the game other than giving you some hacking quests and leaving her as a "placeholder" for ME 3. 

Yeah, it sucks badly.  Baldurs Gate II had better cameos with Montaron being a damn bird and Tiax being insane, but what can you do?  I still like to think of Liara as fundamentally a good-aligned character (assuming we are talking a D&D scale, lol) but at this point Bioware has shown they will do whatever they want with the plot to justify gameplay plot flow decisions.

[Mass Erect]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

This whole "Liara is a crimelord!!!" bollocks that I'm witnessing snowballing and being perpetuated is seriously getting on my nerves.

Seriously Noxis, you've gone from Liara being a shady information broker, to Liara being a criminal, to now that she's a "crimelord". What's the next assertion going to be? That she regularly places a horse's head on the pillows of her clients?

[Dr.LiaraTsoni]

New pic for new page!

[Mass Erect]

It was really Liara's personallity that made me attracted to her the most.



Bioware smashed that with a sledge hammer in front of me.

[piemanz]

Mass Erect wrote...

It was really Liara's personallity that made me attracted to her the most.

Bioware smashed that with a sledge hammer in front of me.

They did?.I dont see it myself......

[screwoffreg]

Mass Erect wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

This whole "Liara is a crimelord!!!" bollocks that I'm witnessing snowballing and being perpetuated is seriously getting on my nerves.

Seriously Noxis, you've gone from Liara being a shady information broker, to Liara being a criminal, to now that she's a "crimelord". What's the next assertion going to be? That she regularly places a horse's head on the pillows of her clients?

I still see Liara as the Arwen of this trilogy; strong, motivated, but still kind hearted and a positive force in the ME galaxy. 

As much as we bash Bioware, I imagine their heavy handed use of her in ME 2 will be ameliorated by a grand return for her in the last game.  This is, of course, the only chance they have left anyway...at least until they start trying to cash in on the ME  franchise and we get the bastard offspring of this game (DONT DO IT EA).

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

screwoffreg wrote...
 but at this point Bioware has shown they will do whatever they want with the plot to justify gameplay plot flow decisions.

This! So much this!

We really need to start accepting the fact that this wasnt some long term plan for what was best for the Liara character (outside of "saving her"). This was some poorly done hack job designed to make it easy for Bioware to all but ignore Liara for the duration of ME2. They havent done whats best for the Liara character on any level, they did they thought was best for ME2.

This should be obvious when the most positive thing we can take from her role is that it was given under the assurance that she was "saved for ME3".

Her ME2 cameo doesnt deserve any character debate about where shes going and what shes doing. That should be saved for when Bioware actually starts putting some real effort and thought into her role other than "how can we make this have the least possible impact on the game and make it easier on ourselves".

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 16 avril 2010 - 04:04 .

[Sunnie]

Noxis6 wrote...

Blansten wrote...
I seriously doubt that there is a child involved.I also think that painting Liara as that extreme of a villain is a serious exaggeration. People will read into the game whatever they want and that's fine but I just don't see where anyone could get the idea that Liara would harm Shepard ... meh to each their own I guess.

Well she is a criminal right now and seemingly quite ruthless at that,as to how far she would go well with Walters involved I guess I'm prepared for everything,even putting a bullet into her head,not that I would like to but with the set of writers Bioware has I wouldnt disclose that from happening,to further amp up on "darkness"

As for her sending a hitsquad after Shepard in case of cheating well that is just one of the bets placed,my own is actually very mild,I think the cheating will result in a few angry lines,maybe with a paragon/renegade option at the end and then go back to normal

Wha? How the? Liara is not a criminal! /uploads_user/1070000/1069890/28007.gif What she is doing is NOT illegal on Illium. Nor is she ruthless. And how could you even REMOTELY consider killing her? Did I just step into the smear Liara thread by accident?/uploads_user/1070000/1069890/28014.gif
Everyones entitled to their opinion, but thats a load of rubbish. /uploads_user/1070000/1069890/28024.gif

Modifié par Sunnie22, 16 avril 2010 - 04:13 .

[WilliamShatner]

implodinggoat wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

*reads previous pages* Liara is evil now? Thats a gross oversimplification. Something I'd expect to hear one of her detractors or haters say. :/

What?  Who said that?

Hey!  Are you 'back' now?

It was me and I'll grant its an oversimplification; but it was an intended act of hyperbole.  Aside from Wrex, Liara is my favorite Mass Effect character, however that opinion is based entirely upon her personality in ME1, while her personality in ME2 has only served to diminish my fondness for her character.

In concept I think that making Liara more hardened was the right direction to take her character; but it was executed terribly.  I realize her appearance in the game is brief; but I still believe that the concept that she has become less innocent and naive could have been conveyed more subtly and that doing so would have fit her character far better than the radical and bizarre approach Bioware took.

For example having Liara break the law (by asking you to hack public terminals) in an attempt to get leads on the Shadowbroker is a suprisingly  renegade act for her character which effectively conveys that she has become more hardened and less idealistic; but still seems like the sort of act that a less innocent Liara might consider.  Yet that act of law breaking is easily the most minor of her more hardened acts and her other renegade actions don't convey an innocent archeologist who has become jaded by the world they convey a completely ruthless and uncaring character who's personality isn't merely an alteration of her character in ME1 its the invention of an entirely new character.

• When you first meet her she is quoting her psychotic mother and threatening to flay someone alive, not for the greater good; but simply because the guy didn't want to pay the bill she sent him. 
• Then, if you press her on it she even goes so far as asserting that her mother's ruthlessness was a commendable trait.
• When you ask her to help save the galaxy she prioritizes her own private vendetta over helping to save the lives of thousands of innocents.  
• Then she sends you off to illegally hack into public computer terminals for her as though you were just a damned errand boy, not her lover. 
• After that she asks you to illegally hack more public terminals so that she can order a hit on someone.
• When you tell her it was her secretary she promptly kills her without the slightest apprehension and makes no attempt to take her alive or ask for your help in doing so.  Which by the way is an incredibly stupid move for someone who's supposed to be an intelligence expert since she just killed an agent who likely had a great deal of very valuable information.
• When you ask her how the fight with her secretary went she reacts to killing a woman who she had worked closely with for months as though she had just swatted a fly.  

Now explain to me how any of those actions fit her character at all? 

I read the Redemption comic which handled her character rather well as opposed to what Bioware did in ME2 and there's nothing in there that comes anywhere close to explaining why she would undergo such a radical and highly unpleasant transformation or even why she would be so obsessed with saving  her former partner.   And I'm still baffled as to what the hell happened that could have made a benevolent, blue, nerdy chick into a far less competent psuedo Shadowbroker.

It seems as though the Bioware writers thought...

"Alright, we're making Liara's character more hardened and cynical; but the player's are clearly too stupid to grasp the change unless we make 90% of her dialogue pertain to breaking the law or some act of remorseless killing."

And the result is that player's are mystified as to what the hell happened to her character.  I can totally understand why Ashley/or Kaiden called me out on Horizon, in fact I can understand it a hell of a lot better than I can understand why Shepard, Joker, and Dr. Chakwas would regard Cerberus so lightly after the attrocities they witnessed in ME1.   Hell I can even rationalize the reactions of Shepard, Joker and Chakwas on the grounds of working for the greater good; but when Liara the single most virtuous character in ME1 is offered a chance to help protect the innocent along side her former Commander (and possibly lover) she turns it down in favor of a private Vendetta in the name of a man who she spent one mission fighting along side COMIC SPOILERS: and who spent the vast majority of that mission lying to her about the fact that he had been working for Cerberus the whole damned time. Granted he committed one act of heroism to help save her and Shepard's lives; but by the same token Shepard had already saved Liara's life twice, once from the Geth on Therum and again on the Citadel when Shepard saved the whole damned galaxy.END COMIC SPOILERS.

None of it makes any damned sense at all.

[*]I know this is from a couple of pages back... timezones and all... but ... FANTASTIC post.

[Sunnie]

Unata wrote...

Yay, Unata's back! *hugs*

[screwoffreg]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...
 but at this point Bioware has shown they will do whatever they want with the plot to justify gameplay plot flow decisions.

This! So much this!

We really need to start accepting the fact that this wasnt some long term plan for what was best for the Liara character (outside of "saving her"). This was some poorly done hack job designed to make it easy for Bioware to all but ignore Liara for the duration of ME2. They havent done whats best for the Liara character on any level, they did they thought was best for ME2.

This should be obvious when the most positive thing we can take from her role is that it was given under the assurance that she was "saved for ME3".

Her ME2 cameo doesnt deserve any character debate about where shes going and what shes doing. That should be saved for when Bioware actually starts putting some real effort and thought into her role other than "how can we make this have the least possible impact on the game and make it easier on ourselves".

The fact that the comic Liara and the game Liara were inconsistent pushes along this point, i think. 

[Noxis6]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

This whole "Liara is a crimelord!!!" bollocks that I'm witnessing snowballing and being perpetuated is seriously getting on my nerves.

Seriously Noxis, you've gone from Liara being a shady information broker, to Liara being a criminal, to now that she's a "crimelord". What's the next assertion going to be? That she regularly places a horse's head on the pillows of her clients?

We see her strongarming ONE guy. We never see her cause harm to any innocent people. We don't know the true nature of what the problem was with that client. What if he was a prominent figure in a a merc band? Wouldn't Liara need to appear strong to him, he'd flatten her if she appeared meek and accepted his demands or refusals.

We only see her prepared to kill ONE person, and that itself is an act of self defence. She knows the Observer has her in her crosshairs. The fact that Liara wants to avoid killing all 5 suspects, when that itself is the easy way out, shows how much Liara is trying to avoid any kind of unnecessary bloodshed. She's only killing those that she sees as being an absolute necessity, and in which there is no other option. Doesn't that tell you something? That Liara has maintained her values and morals despite working in the shady world of intrigue? Admirable if you ask me.

Liara is evil? Pfft. She's hurt, she's in pain, she's tormented by guilt, she's seperated from the person she loves, and is both anticipating and dreading the day said person returns due to the fact she's afraid he/she will hate her. She's still the same old Liara deep down, it's not like she's relishing any violence or her job as an information broker. She's only doing it because she sees it as an absolute necessity to take down the Shadow Broker. It's not about an eye-for-an-eye revenge. Liara is desperately trying to ease herself of her pain, and find happiness again. She feels that taking down the SB will help her atone for what she's done, and that she will redeem herself. The fact that we are artificially prevented from comforting her or showing her any love says it all. It's being saved for the Liara DLC, in which we'll finally get her full ME2 role as intended. The status quo has had to be maintained in an incredibly contrived way.

As for Liara sending a hitsquad after Shepard? I'm not even going to dignify that with response.

The thing with the hitsquad was more a joke bet that a friend of mine brought up but if you take it seriously thats your problem I guess

Also I doubt there are horses on Illium who knows what she does,in the end she will do everything Bioware wants her to do.
And on the Liara is evil well I dont recall using that word,people resort to crime for various reasons in end what you see and what I see are two way of interpretation of the whole thing.
In the end the scene is horribly done there are no excuses for that,they could have made a better exposition,they didnt and I dont believe a DLC will resolve it should there be one

Overall the scene can be seen in many ways and as said above they can go everywhere with it,you also have to take in account the players that started with ME2 and how they percieve her and you have plenty more possibilies how this will end

[Sunnie]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

This whole "Liara is a crimelord!!!" bollocks that I'm witnessing snowballing and being perpetuated is seriously getting on my nerves.

Seriously Noxis, you've gone from Liara being a shady information broker, to Liara being a criminal, to now that she's a "crimelord". What's the next assertion going to be? That she regularly places a horse's head on the pillows of her clients?

We see her strongarming ONE guy. We never see her cause harm to any innocent people. We don't know the true nature of what the problem was with that client. What if he was a prominent figure in a a merc band? Wouldn't Liara need to appear strong to him, he'd flatten her if she appeared meek and accepted his demands or refusals.

We only see her prepared to kill ONE person, and that itself is an act of self defence. She knows the Observer has her in her crosshairs. The fact that Liara wants to avoid killing all 5 suspects, when that itself is the easy way out, shows how much Liara is trying to avoid any kind of unnecessary bloodshed. She's only killing those that she sees as being an absolute necessity, and in which there is no other option. Doesn't that tell you something? That Liara has maintained her values and morals despite working in the shady world of intrigue? Admirable if you ask me.

Liara is evil? Pfft. She's hurt, she's in pain, she's tormented by guilt, she's seperated from the person she loves, and is both anticipating and dreading the day said person returns due to the fact she's afraid he/she will hate her. She's still the same old Liara deep down, it's not like she's relishing any violence or her job as an information broker. She's only doing it because she sees it as an absolute necessity to take down the Shadow Broker. It's not about an eye-for-an-eye revenge. Liara is desperately trying to ease herself of her pain, and find happiness again. She feels that taking down the SB will help her atone for what she's done, and that she will redeem herself. The fact that we are artificially prevented from comforting her or showing her any love says it all. It's being saved for the Liara DLC, in which we'll finally get her full ME2 role as intended. The status quo has had to be maintained in an incredibly contrived way.

As for Liara sending a hitsquad after Shepard? I'm not even going to dignify that with response.

This! Thank you Les, I wanted to say something like this but I am too steamed write anything more coherent than what I did.

[AndroLeonidas]

piemanz wrote...

Mass Erect wrote...

It was really Liara's personallity that made me attracted to her the most.

Bioware smashed that with a sledge hammer in front of me.

They did?.I dont see it myself......

My response to this is simple. Go back to ME1... play through the entire game with Liara in your squad and talk to her every two or three minutes when on a planet or mission. Then you will see what type of person she is and the complete and utter hack job Bioware did on her character in ME2. If you are not willing to do this... then you won;t know what most of us mean. Just my opinion.

[Sunnie]

Gah, Im so mad I can't even post right! /uploads_user/1070000/1069890/27989.gif

Modifié par Sunnie22, 16 avril 2010 - 04:12 .

[AndroLeonidas]

Somebody1003 wrote...

Liara is going to be the next Shadow Broker.

Another one where a response is not required!

[jlb524]

As I've said before, the problem is that BW just completely changed Liara and presented this in a 5-10 minute cameo. If they were going to do something like this to a character, said character should have been a squad mate and had a major role in the story. This way, the change can be depicted over a period of time and through dialog with Shepard or others.



Hell, Garrus was a full ME2 squad mate and his character didn't change at all from ME1 (though, he barely speaks to Shepard either). Liara's character did change, but her role is so small in the game it's difficult to fathom it.

[screwoffreg]

Hey folks, it could be worse. It could be like the Star Wars reveal in that Liara turns out to be a lost sister and now you have to let her go lest you commit incest....