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Support Liara T'Soni for ME3 - Squadmate and LI


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#17951
vigna

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Sunnie22 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

This guy isn't going to let us down:

http://www.caseyhudson.com/

Look at those smoldering eyes. He yearns for Liara too...you all know he's an undercover fan.


Unfortunately for him, Liara isn't interested being asexual and all.

Liara wouldn't be interested in him not because she is asexual, its because she is in love with Shepard (yes even if you didnt romance her in ME1, she is still in love with Shepard). And what does being asexual have to do with interest? Asari being asexual means they could have an interest in any gender (and also species in this case), to the point of frowning upon pureblood reproduction.


He was poking fun at Hudson. Liara is mono-gendered...not asexual.

#17952
jlb524

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Well said, Yeled.

Yeled wrote...

I see from the past few pages that we are back to our pessimistic ways on this thread. Honestly I'm not sure that's a bad thing, though. No offense to forumites like Stubbs and Les, who I like very much and hope are right about everything, but I'm afraid we're expecting far too much of BioWare at this point in expecting them to do right by Liara's character. I've gotten to the point that I think we Liara fans, and maybe fans of BioWare's classic story driven games in general, should be hoping for the best while assuming the worst about anything BioWare does from here on out.


I think that's the problem with some of us (including me).  We expected ME2 to be the same story-driven experience that past BW games have been (including ME1).  It wasn't and now we are disappointed and bitter (I am, at least).  There was a story and there were some characters you could talk to (until they started calibrating stuff) but the focus on the game was shooter combat.  The characters, old and new, were an afterthought.  Liara got short-changed b/c of this, but so did Garrus and some of the new characters if you didn't romance them (Miranda, Jack, etc.).  ME1, while not the best shooter combat by a long shot, presented us with a great story driven experience and the world and it's characters felt alive.  This feeling is lacking in ME2.  I hope they return to the story and characters in ME3 but it's still possible they'll further try to 'refine' the shooter experience.

In ME2, it almost feels like they didn't want to but a lot of effort
into developing individual characters that they had introduced in ME1, so they made up a whole bunch of flashy new
ones and threw them at us.  Unfortunately, some these new characters are a bit weak unless you romance them.  They have a 'cool backstory' and were marketed to be very interesting and 'sexy' characters, but in the game they don't talk much and there character development stops after their loyalty missions.

#17953
WilliamShatner

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Sunnie22 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

This guy isn't going to let us down:

http://www.caseyhudson.com/

Look at those smoldering eyes. He yearns for Liara too...you all know he's an undercover fan.


Unfortunately for him, Liara isn't interested being asexual and all.

Liara wouldn't be interested in him not because she is asexual, its because she is in love with Shepard (yes even if you didnt romance her in ME1, she is still in love with Shepard). And what does being asexual have to do with interest? Asari being asexual means they could have an interest in any gender (and also species in this case), to the point of frowning upon pureblood reproduction.


The very definition of asexual is not having any interest in sex. :huh:

Eitherway I wasn't being very serious.  Merely pointing out how Hudson shot down his own chances with Liara based on his ludicrous statements. :happy:

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 16 avril 2010 - 04:58 .


#17954
bjdbwea

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#17955
Yeled

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bjdbwea wrote...

Yeled wrote...

ME2 was the most disappointing game I've ever played. Its as simple as that. It certainly wasn't the worst game, but for all its qualities I feel it utterly failed because my expectations were so high. Its not just Liara, though I felt emotionally disconnected because of what they did with her and other ME1 connections. But for me it was the entire experience. And nothing BioWare has done since has changed that.


Yeah... so far for me that was KotoR 2. But I recently replayed that (with the new fan-made patch), and it isn't as bad as I seemed to remember. The ending and the implementation of the so-called romances really is horrible though, much worse than ME 2. But only now do I recognize how much of an RPG KotoR 2 at least still was, and how little freedom ME 2 provides.


For some reason I actually enjoyed KotoR 2.  It had some terrible glitches and unfinished story elements were rampent, and clearly it was a much worse game overall when compared to ME2, but I had fun with it anyway.  I enjoyed the characters and the dark tone they took throughout the game. 

Its all about expectations, really.  Maybe it was because it was Obsidian so I didn't expect it to be perfect.

#17956
screwoffreg

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It's not really fair to blame Obsidian for Kotor 2. They obviously had big plans for it, but business decisions came over plot decisions and the game goes downhill badly during the latter stages. Its obvious it was rushed as all hell.

#17957
jlb524

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bjdbwea wrote...

Yeled wrote...

ME2 was the most disappointing game I've ever played. Its as simple as that. It certainly wasn't the worst game, but for all its qualities I feel it utterly failed because my expectations were so high. Its not just Liara, though I felt emotionally disconnected because of what they did with her and other ME1 connections. But for me it was the entire experience. And nothing BioWare has done since has changed that.


Yeah... so far for me that was KotoR 2. But I recently replayed that (with the new fan-made patch), and it isn't as bad as I seemed to remember. The ending and the implementation of the so-called romances really is horrible though, much worse than ME 2. But only now do I recognize how much of an RPG KotoR 2 at least still was, and how little freedom ME 2 provides.


I think KOTOR 2 was a much better sequel than ME2 and it really wasn't supposed to be a sequel on the same level as ME2 (you start with a different protagonist, for example).  This might also be because my hopes were higher for ME2 than they were for KOTOR 2.  

#17958
WilliamShatner

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jlb524 wrote...

Well said, Yeled.

Yeled wrote...

I see from the past few pages that we are back to our pessimistic ways on this thread. Honestly I'm not sure that's a bad thing, though. No offense to forumites like Stubbs and Les, who I like very much and hope are right about everything, but I'm afraid we're expecting far too much of BioWare at this point in expecting them to do right by Liara's character. I've gotten to the point that I think we Liara fans, and maybe fans of BioWare's classic story driven games in general, should be hoping for the best while assuming the worst about anything BioWare does from here on out.


I think that's the problem with some of us (including me).  We expected ME2 to be the same story-driven experience that past BW games have been (including ME1).  It wasn't and now we are disappointed and bitter (I am, at least).  There was a story and there were some characters you could talk to (until they started calibrating stuff) but the focus on the game was shooter combat.  The characters, old and new, were an afterthought.  Liara got short-changed b/c of this, but so did Garrus and some of the new characters if you didn't romance them (Miranda, Jack, etc.).  ME1, while not the best shooter combat by a long shot, presented us with a great story driven experience and the world and it's characters felt alive.  This feeling is lacking in ME2.  I hope they return to the story and characters in ME3 but it's still possible they'll further try to 'refine' the shooter experience.

In ME2, it almost feels like they didn't want to but a lot of effort
into developing individual characters that they had introduced in ME1, so they made up a whole bunch of flashy new
ones and threw them at us.  Unfortunately, some these new characters are a bit weak unless you romance them.  They have a 'cool backstory' and were marketed to be very interesting and 'sexy' characters, but in the game they don't talk much and there character development stops after their loyalty missions.


BioWare has a history of screwing over characters in sequels.  Dynaheir, one of my favourite Baldur's Gate characters was killed off screen between games. :(

#17959
screwoffreg

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Everyone else in BG II got a funny cameo though, at least. Tiax, as I mentioned, was my favorite.



Also, there will never be a bad guy as awesome as Jon Irenicus. The Reapers are sort of underwhelming so far as they are more a force of nature than a twisted villain..

#17960
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Yeled wrote...

I see from the past few pages that we are back to our pessimistic ways on this thread. Honestly I'm not sure that's a bad thing, though. No offense to forumites like Stubbs and Les, who I like very much and hope are right about everything, but I'm afraid we're expecting far too much of BioWare at this point in expecting them to do right by Liara's character. I've gotten to the point that I think we Liara fans, and maybe fans of BioWare's classic story driven games in general, should be hoping for the best while assuming the worst about anything BioWare does from here on out.

As far as I'm concerned, everything BioWare has done since ME2 came out--from dlc to Dragon Age's expansion--has been pretty much worthless. They are like a former star player who has batted .000 since the season began, and I'm wondering if their time in the big leagues is coming to an end. They clearly want to play in the Halo and Gears of War realm, and I guess from their pocket book's point of view they succeeded with ME2. But I'm not sure they can sustain it if they are going to sacrifice their heart and soul: The stories and roleplaying elements that they've done better than anyone for the better part of a decade.

How many brands go under because they move away from their core strengths? We've seen it time and again. Companies that sacrifice long-term quality for short-term gain inevitably damage their brand, alienate their core audience/consumer, and die a slow, inglorious death.

BioWare stands on the precipice. Maybe they've already gone over. I'm not sure yet. But either way they are dangerously close to falling. I didn't think, before ME2 came out, that this could happen. I held no company in higher regard. I thought they could do no wrong. They walked on water as far as I was concerned.

ME2 was the most disappointing game I've ever played. Its as simple as that. It certainly wasn't the worst game, but for all its qualities I feel it utterly failed because my expectations were so high. Its not just Liara, though I felt emotionally disconnected because of what they did with her and other ME1 connections. But for me it was the entire experience. And nothing BioWare has done since has changed that.

It would be nice if someone from BioWare would come into this thread and speak with us. I know its highly unlikely, but I really want to have some hope again and I think that's the only way that could happen at this point. I think we could all be civil, and I'd expect people to shout down those who weren't.

Anyway, yeah, I realize I'm now totally ranting. I'm just frustrated by what I see as the loss of the single best company in the videogame industry. I feel very strongly, as many of us do. To be honest, with the way the industry is headed, I might be inclined to abandon the industry altogether, and not just BioWare. If no one is going to make great, story-driven games...I'm not sure I have a lot of interest. Everything I played of late was just filler between BioWare games. It seems that's won't be true anymore.

I see where you are coming from, I try not to be positive just for the sake of it (although, I am an optimistic person as some of you know from the music I listen to and I never get depressed from it, lol), but do not forget that pessimism means you will immediately give up on your problems.
Optimism means no matter how much the world breaks you down, you still keep going and looking for answers to your problems. You don't have to be happy about it, but the fact is you will keep going.
I know it may seem as though we are grasping at straws sometimes, but everything we are talking about makes sense logically. Liara's emotions and the comics fit together.

Remember that EA doesn't want BioWare to go "full shooter" we are still a pretty big part of the market share for them, obviously not as big as the shooter market, but we still count for a large amount of money. Video games don't generally make a massive net profit for the companies, so they need all of the money they can get. They cannot afford to lose any fans.

Also, even if BioWare doesn't make the games they used to, there will always be other companies out there who want to take a stab at RPGs, some of them will fail, some of them will make some of the greatest games ever.
I don't even own any shooter games myself (because of the fact that all of the storylines in them all suck and they are extremely repetitive), so I know what you mean by feeling disappointed that a lot of companies are leaning towards the shooter genre.

ME2 was definitely a major disappointment for me as well (my expectations where massive, lol), I tried to prepare myself when they started pumping the "Suicide Mission" but I didn't think they were going to completely dismiss ME1 in the way that they did.
I have a theory that the amount of plot holes in ME2 might have been due to EA wanting to get as much money as they can out of us. That is also where the Liara reunion comes into play, she could be a major character in an expansion that will fix some of the plot holes.
We all know that it would be extremely hard to write ME3 without fixing the plot holes, logically, it would be easier to create at least one major expansion to bridge ME2 to ME3.

BioWare may not be able to speak with us because of legalities, usually that is the problem in most situations like this.
That could also mean that Liara DLC is on the way if they are completely ignoring us, they couldn't say anything at all if the DLC is coming out.

#17961
bjdbwea

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screwoffreg wrote...

It's not really fair to blame Obsidian for Kotor 2. They obviously had big plans for it, but business decisions came over plot decisions and the game goes downhill badly during the latter stages. Its obvious it was rushed as all hell.


Sounds familiar. While BioWare of course can't say anything about it openly, to me it's obvious that the exact same things happened to ME 2. Maybe not just as rushed as KotoR 2, but definitely pushed out of the door too early. How ironic that (if I remember correctly) BioWare didn't want to make KotoR 2 because they didn't want to have LucasArts breathing down their necks all the time.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 16 avril 2010 - 05:07 .


#17962
Dinkamus_Littlelog

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WilliamShatner wrote...


BioWare has a history of screwing over characters in sequels.  Dynaheir, one of my favourite Baldur's Gate characters was killed off screen between games. :(


Yeah, that was a shame, but you have to acknowledge the difference.

The BG1 characters had NO development whatsoever. They had small backstories, characterisation for their audio comments, and then after that they were nothing more than combat aides.

Its a shame that they didnt show equal treatment for all the BG1 part members who didnt remain party members in BGII, but its not quite the same as fully developed, realised and dynamic characters of ME1 becoming a cameo mockery in ME2.

Even Wrex and his "cool cameo" are an absolute pathetic letdown when you realise its just a tweaked version of the Wreav encounter, or vice versa.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 16 avril 2010 - 05:08 .


#17963
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I think we should change the title of this thread to, "Bioware, read this:  You failed with Liara in ME2 and we want you to fix this!"  Or something to that nature.  We're not going to get Bioware's attention unless we keep posting all day like the Tali and Garrus fans did to make them a romance in ME2.  Bioware listened to them and granted their wish.  This is not an angry post singling anyone out, it's actually just something I've been thinking about for awhile now.   

#17964
Noxis6

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screwoffreg wrote...

Everyone else in BG II got a funny cameo though, at least. Tiax, as I mentioned, was my favorite.

Also, there will never be a bad guy as awesome as Jon Irenicus. The Reapers are sort of underwhelming so far as they are more a force of nature than a twisted villain..


Irenicus was a good villian I think the reapers lack the problem that they have no real "face" to represent them at least in ME2,Harbinger just gets annoying with his assuming control and the Collector general doesnt do anything,its also the same problem in DA the blight is not represented by a leading figure

#17965
vigna

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Well, I still play ME1 more than ME2. The ME2 story is weak (to say the least) and instead it focuses on the shooter aspects. I'll admit the Tali, Garrus, Legion and Miranda plots are very good, but the rest doesn't hold up.

If I want a shooter I'll get Halo or Ghost Recon or something. the shooter aspects should be secondary to the story for BW IMO. Yeah, the gameplay needs to be good and smooth, but not at the expense of BW's trademark story/plot elements.



So basically, as Mel Gibson said, "Gimme back my Liara!"

#17966
Yeled

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jlb524 wrote...

In ME2, it almost feels like they didn't want to but a lot of effort
into developing individual characters that they had introduced in ME1, so they made up a whole bunch of flashy new
ones and threw them at us.  Unfortunately, some these new characters are a bit weak unless you romance them.  They have a 'cool backstory' and were marketed to be very interesting and 'sexy' characters, but in the game they don't talk much and there character development stops after their loyalty missions.


I think one of the biggest problems I had with the ME2 cast was that they were designed as sexy, rather than complete.  And by sexy I don't mean scantilly dressed with large breasts (though that fits some...I'm looking at you, Miranda!).  I mean they are flashy and cool and "awesome."

That's why, when I went back to ME1 after a number of years, I was so impressed by the characters in your squad, and especially Kaiden and Ashley.  They are very down-to-earth characters.  They are simply marines.  Kaiden isn't "cool" and "awesome."  His image on the cover won't sell games.  But he fits the story and world perfectly; he and Ash are there to exemplify the "human" experience, which was at the core of the ME1 story.  A lot of the ME1 was about what humans were going through as the new kids in the galaxy, and Ash and Kaiden had their own experiences that were a part of our understanding of the setting.

ME2 presented "sexy" characters who were flashy and cool.  They did nothing to enhance the setting or make it more real.  In fact, I think maybe ME2 abandoned the character of the galaxy as much as it abandoned the characters of Liara and other remnants from ME1.

#17967
screwoffreg

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I am pretty sure Bioware is well aware of this thread. Obviously they can't say anything nor should we expect them to. They seem to keep a good tab on all the topics, occasionally dropping in on the most unexpected ones.

#17968
jlb524

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Yeled wrote...

For some reason I actually enjoyed KotoR 2.  It had some terrible glitches and unfinished story elements were rampent, and clearly it was a much worse game overall when compared to ME2, but I had fun with it anyway.  I enjoyed the characters and the dark tone they took throughout the game. 


I like KOTOR 2 better than ME2.  While the KOTOR 2 main story was terrible and elements of it were missing (due to time constraints) the characters definitely carried that game.  This was the first game that included an 'influence system' and this was much much more complex than ME2's crappy 'loyalty system' which was just a binary.  Characters interacted with each other aboard the Ebon Hawk and we were able to witness this.  They also interacted a great deal outside the ship.  As individuals, each had pretty interesting back stories and the Exile was able to delve into these through a significant amount of dialog.  All in all, KOTOR 2 was an awesome character driven game, even though the main story was terrible. 

Compare this to ME2.  ME2 was filled with characters that also had interesting back stories, however, Shepard is unable to delve into them via dialog.  We get a glimpse of them through the loyalty missions and the scant dialog on the Normandy, but that's it.  There's also no inter-party banter outside of those 2 confrontations and the characters never interact with each other outside the Normandy.  They loyalty system is a joke...do a mission, they are loyal.   ME2 could have been an awesome character driven game (even if the main story was dumb) just like KOTOR 2 but it wasn't.  Going into ME2, I did expect another KOTOR 2 experience but was surely disappointed.

#17969
screwoffreg

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Noxis6 wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

Everyone else in BG II got a funny cameo though, at least. Tiax, as I mentioned, was my favorite.

Also, there will never be a bad guy as awesome as Jon Irenicus. The Reapers are sort of underwhelming so far as they are more a force of nature than a twisted villain..


Irenicus was a good villian I think the reapers lack the problem that they have no real "face" to represent them at least in ME2,Harbinger just gets annoying with his assuming control and the Collector general doesnt do anything,its also the same problem in DA the blight is not represented by a leading figure


I imagine ME 3 will reveal more of their servants, thanks to their indoctrination and the like.  I imagine several characters will probably turn for the dramatic effect of OMG THEY ARE EVERYWHERE.

#17970
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bjdbwea wrote...

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I like. 

#17971
Dinkamus_Littlelog

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rynluna wrote...

I think we should change the title of this thread to, "Bioware, read this:  You failed with Liara in ME2 and we want you to fix this!"  Or something to that nature.  We're not going to get Bioware's attention unless we keep posting all day like the Tali and Garrus fans did to make them a romance in ME2.  Bioware listened to them and granted their wish.  This is not an angry post singling anyone out, it's actually just something I've been thinking about for awhile now.   


Thats an overstatement. Tali and Garrus were easy characters to bring over, and clearly not important for ME3. They "granted their wish" by basing almost their entire character around a brief, 3-4 small conversation romance.

I dont want Bioware listening to us if we would only get similarly garbage characters in ME3.

The ME2 romances were nowhere near long enough to justify making them all a character offers. They should have been at least as long and in depth as the ME1 romances, with similar "plot spots" like the "locker scene" after the council & udina screws Shepard over.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 16 avril 2010 - 05:12 .


#17972
Noxis6

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screwoffreg wrote...
I imagine ME 3 will reveal more of their servants, thanks to their indoctrination and the like.  I imagine several characters will probably turn for the dramatic effect of OMG THEY ARE EVERYWHERE.


I hope so,well at least I hope they dont go on strike after the start of the invasion as the darkspawn seemingly did after the battle of Ostagar I have to say for an all devouring army they were kind of lazy

#17973
screwoffreg

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Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

rynluna wrote...

I think we should change the title of this thread to, "Bioware, read this:  You failed with Liara in ME2 and we want you to fix this!"  Or something to that nature.  We're not going to get Bioware's attention unless we keep posting all day like the Tali and Garrus fans did to make them a romance in ME2.  Bioware listened to them and granted their wish.  This is not an angry post singling anyone out, it's actually just something I've been thinking about for awhile now.   


Thats an overstatement. Tali and Garrus were easy characters to bring over, and clearly not important for ME3. They granted their wish be basing almost their entire character around a brief 3-4 small conversation romance.

I dont want Bioware listening to us if we would only get similarly garbage characters in ME3.

The ME2 romances were nowhere near long enough to justify making them all a character offers. They should have been at least as long and in depth as the ME1 romances, with similar "plot spots" like the "locker scene" after the council & udina screws Shepard over.


The problem with ME romances in general is that they are ALL player initiated.  In DA it was similiar, but the conversations were spurred on by a lot of dialogue BETWEEN other characters (Morrigan and Leliana fighting, for example, when there like of the PC is high).  In ME, you can blow of pretty much all character interaction with no real downside.  In ME 2 you only need to talk to the squad to get a loyalty mission.  There is no development anywhere else...

As for Tali, I think I read somewhere they had wanted her to be an ME 1 romance, but they felt that a person with chicken feet and three fingers wouldn't attract anyone.  They obviously misunderstood human nature.  If it has a female form, curves, and a is cutesy, its good to go.

#17974
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rynluna wrote...

I think we should change the title of this thread to, "Bioware, read this:  You failed with Liara in ME2 and we want you to fix this!"  Or something to that nature.  We're not going to get Bioware's attention unless we keep posting all day like the Tali and Garrus fans did to make them a romance in ME2.  Bioware listened to them and granted their wish.  This is not an angry post singling anyone out, it's actually just something I've been thinking about for awhile now.   


It's not just us here though, ryn. I look at comments across the internet, and alot of people are either confused. puzzled, angry, disappointed or just plain frustrated to varying degrees about what BioWare did with Liara in ME2. The outcry is a pretty large one, and it's not just confined to this thread or forum.

As I've said before, I don't have a problem with this direction they're taking Liara. The "putting an inherently bad person in an inherently bad situation" archetype is an interesting one, and the way they've shown Liara's suffering and her love and devotion to Shepard if you read between the lines is going to make her a stronger character in the end, and her romance alot more powerful. Liara's strength in adversity, her love for Shepard, and her rufusal to compromise her morals and values despite all that she's suffered is admirable, and makes me love her even more.

The execution is horrible though. That's what my problem is. I've posted my theories and what I think the meaning is behind this and that many times, and I really do think what I'm saying is the case due to evidence presented in game, and from listening to what Liara says, and how she acts. But until we're given something concrete about Liara, and we will IMO and alot of what I think will be proven to be correct, then it's still up in the air. The half-arsed reunion dialogue is awful.

#17975
WilliamShatner

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screwoffreg wrote...

Everyone else in BG II got a funny cameo though, at least. Tiax, as I mentioned, was my favorite.

Also, there will never be a bad guy as awesome as Jon Irenicus. The Reapers are sort of underwhelming so far as they are more a force of nature than a twisted villain..


The problem with the Reapers is we're 2/3 of the way through the story and I still:

1) Haven't got an idea what their motivation is
2) Think their plans are stupid.

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 16 avril 2010 - 05:16 .