50907 réponses à ce sujet

[MoSa09]

General Stubbs wrote...
I have to wonder though.
The SB seems fearless and all-knowing. Why would he care if he had one person after him? Even someone as powerful as Shepard should be no match against the most powerful organization/person in the galaxy.
He comes across a major "mafia don" character that could snuff anyone out at anytime if you ****** him off enough. Liara is trying to kill him, if you were the SB, why wouldn't you try to immediately take her out? Shepard isn't even there for two years.

You touched a point that is bugging me. The SB seems to be a really powerful entity for years, maybe even decades, and neither the council nor any other powerful government/military/criminal organization throughout the galaxy was ever able to reveal his identity and threatem him/her/them. And now here comes Liara T'Soni, an archeologists who spent her years hiding on some remote planet and after two years she build up a powerful information netwrok and got the SB on the run from her.
That's like a young history professor who spent most of her life in college libraries starting to suceessfully track down the most powerful and well established mafia families in the country.
That sounds, bluntly speaking, more thn just a bit unrealistic. Comparing Liara's experience in tracking criminals, her ressources to the SB's power and influence, she should realistically not be more than a probably annoying joke for him/her/them.
But ME 2 portrays it like he is close to hunt the SB down, and that's not that much realistic. The comics have much work to do to explain how she managed to get that close to the SB, right now the whole scene feels pretty weird.

[Sharn01]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Seriously, Shepard walks in, kills everybody and then gets the loyalty of everyone near him/her. The character is the most dangerous being in the galaxy.

Oh, your entire squad of Quarian Marines died to these geth? I just killed them all pretty much by myself without a scratch, while saving you. By the way, I'm taking your lead scientist with me on a suicide mission and she's more than happy to go since she's fallen in love with me/thinks I'm the most awesome person in the universe. Tomorrow I'll head through a relay no one has ever returned from, eradicate an advanced race of slavers and blow up a reaper. No big deal.

I think they went a little over the top with Shepard and company being unbeatable superhero's in ME2, they probably did it the most with Jack and Samara.

Shep and crew are definately suppose to be badasses, but not unstoppable godlike being's.  They have not reached the point of rediculousness with it yet, but they did move it in that direction.  Beating the reaper's needs to be about more then Shep just showing up and shooting stuff.

[Noxis6]

Driveninhifi wrote...
If anyone can take down the Shadow Broker, it's Shepard. If the Shadow Broker is remotely competent at his job he must realize that. He's working with the Collectors, who have super advanced technology, which still does not save them from getting completely exterminated by Shepard. Wouldn't that make you a bit nervous?

Depends on how much he knows about that,the collectors didnt go down in flames in a well cartographed area of space,so even his knowledge about that should be limited.
As for the Shadow Broker working with them,I doubt he got any closer to them then everyone else in the galaxy,that they hire him to get Shepards Body might indicate they did some buisiness in the past,but beyond that I dont think they have a connection.
He propably knows more about them then most of the galaxy though,considering most people consider the collectors to be more or less a myth,its not that hard.

[Noxis6]

Double post

Modifié par Noxis6, 01 mars 2010 - 09:41 .

[bjdbwea]

Well, I wouldn't link those things. I don't think RtO is worth it, and what I heard about Awakenings so far doesn't sound very appealing either. No pre-oder in any case. But if BioWare puts out a product I like, I wouldn't refuse to purchase it just because of the ME 1 LI disgrace. Except for ME 3 of course, where it just might be the point to sway my decision one way or another.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 01 mars 2010 - 09:40 .

[Nozybidaj]

bjdbwea wrote...

Well, I wouldn't link those things. I don't think RtO is worth it, and what I heard about Awakenings so far doesn't sound very appealing either. No pre-oder in any case. But if BioWare puts out a product I like, I wouldn't refuse to purchase it just because of the ME 1 LI disgrace. Except for ME 3 of course, where it just might be point to sway my decision one way or another.

I won't, it doesn't seem right to support them if I'm not happy with them.  One I didn't mention, one that I had been looking forward to, was SW:TOR.  It'll be a shame that I'll have to pass on that.

[Driveninhifi]

Well, the Shadow Broker has got to know what Shepard is planning to do. A bunch of people are aware you are alive and going after the Collectors, and you aren't exactly shy about saying that's your goal. Liara knows, which means the Shadow Broker must know, if Nyxeris is at all competent. He'd also know Shepard left and came back alive. Given Shepard's track record, that means there was probably a large explosion and space dust left in his/her wake. Plus there's the whole killing the geth/Sovereign and coming back from the dead thing.

It seems to me that the Shadow Broker must be doing more with the Collectors than just selling the body. I definitely hope so, because if it's just the body and Feron getting killed then Liara's motivations really don't make a ton of sense for her character. It's a whole lot more believable if there's more to it.



I do wish they had made a more overt connection to Shepard's stake in Liara's mission. If they'd made it obvious Feron sacrificed himself so Liara could escape with the body, then you can draw the connection he sacrificed himself for her AND Shepard. That would mean something to a Paragon Shepard. A Renegade Shepard is probably more concerned with the Collectors messing with his/her body and friend/lover.

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...
I do wish they had made a more overt connection to Shepard's stake in Liara's mission. If they'd made it obvious Feron sacrificed himself so Liara could escape with the body, then you can draw the connection he sacrificed himself for her AND Shepard. That would mean something to a Paragon Shepard. A Renegade Shepard is probably more concerned with the Collectors messing with his/her body and friend/lover.

I dunno, maybe not so much Feron "sacrificing" himself for Liara and Shep but a situation where Liara has to decide one or the other.  She obviously chose Shep, and Liara "sacrificing" Feron would certainly play into some guilty feelings for her.  I still don't think either scenario though is appropriate to envoke the level of hate that Liara now has for the SB though.  Guilt and self loathing to an extent?  Sure, but not "put him in a coffe cup" level of hate from someone who was as collected as Liara was in ME1.  

Whatever it turns out to be I don' think it will be satisfactory to explain the complete change in her.  I think it is just a case of the writers and developers going overboard with the "grimdark" factor without taking the character's personality into account.

[Noxis6]

Driveninhifi wrote...
It seems to me that the Shadow Broker must be doing more with the Collectors than just selling the body. I definitely hope so, because if it's just the body and Feron getting killed then Liara's motivations really don't make a ton of sense for her character. It's a whole lot more believable if there's more to it.
.

As I said its not impossible that the Shadow Broker made deals with the Collectors in the past,but I doubt they are overly close connected.
The collectors are always descriped as being isolationists,that only leave the Omega 4 relay on rare occasions so its unlikely that there is any closer connection between the two then being buisiness partners.

[AndroLeonidas]

JPfanner wrote...

Cerberus doesn't tell Liara why they want the body in the first issue, TIM gives some lame answer like he doesn't expect her to understand human traditions. I think most people can agree that the comics should have ended in January, even people I've talked with who know nothing about Mass Effect find the offset on the comics ending and the game being released to be weird. With the cover of Redemption 4 and that quote I pasted in the earlier post it really struck me that might really be the big reveal. I definitely think within the context of the comics it will be a reveal, I guess the question is will it be the only reveal.

Actually... she states right in the game that Cerberus told her they could bring him back to life. They just didn't clarify as to why.

Another thing... the Collectors had to have been taking colonists long before Shepard died. Why else would TIM feel the need to bring him back as the only person who could stop them? Which then brings up the point... how much did TIM know about where the Normandy was... and did he have a hand in the attack on them in some way.
Or did the SB.
Why did Cerberus have Project Lazurus ready to go? They must have known they would have to bring him back to life. How long did it take for Liara to actually recover his body and give it to Cerberus? Does anyone know? A week? A month? Miranda and Jacob  told him they had him for two years and twelve days.
Did Cerberus have Project Lazurus ready to go before hand? If so... how did they know they woul dhave to do that? 
I also find it odd that the SB ended up with his body and not the Collectors right from the get go.
How did the SB get it? Did he have people waiting? They must have plucked him out of space since he would have burned up upon reentry into the planet below him. That would indicate that the SB knew he was going to be there but then why did the Collector ship attack?
If they wanted Shepard... why destroy the ship and possibly him as well.
If you think about it really hard... none of it makes any sense.

Just a rant I guess. I'm racking my brains trying to determine why Liara would just throw away her love for Shepard to go after the SB. There is more to it than what we are seeing and what is being told. I really hope the comics shed some serious light on this plotline... otherwise I will be hard pressed to fork over the money for ME3 without answers to all these unanswered questions.

[screwoffreg]

Noxis6 wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...
It seems to me that the Shadow Broker must be doing more with the Collectors than just selling the body. I definitely hope so, because if it's just the body and Feron getting killed then Liara's motivations really don't make a ton of sense for her character. It's a whole lot more believable if there's more to it.
.

As I said its not impossible that the Shadow Broker made deals with the Collectors in the past,but I doubt they are overly close connected.
The collectors are always descriped as being isolationists,that only leave the Omega 4 relay on rare occasions so its unlikely that there is any closer connection between the two then being buisiness partners.

I have always thought the Shadow Broker is using Liara.  As someone said, with a person that powerful, and with Liara static on Illium, why not just blow up her office?  Why even NEED an Observer?  Obviously, he wants to know more about Liara and what she is doing.  Maybe he even plans to eventually use her as a bridge to Shepard, as I am sure he sees a great opportunity to do business with the Collectors gone.  This, of course, would ****** off Liara and Feron, I am sure...

[screwoffreg]

If the Shadow Broker had wanted Liara dead he could hire 1000 mercenaries to do it. Hell, Cerebrus, despite being much smaller, is pretty efficient at getting rid of people.

[Driveninhifi]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Whatever it turns out to be I don' think it will be satisfactory to explain the complete change in her.  I think it is just a case of the writers and developers going overboard with the "grimdark" factor without taking the character's personality into account.

I do worry about this. It does seem like they overreached - however it's not like there aren't explanations for this sort of development in her character, it's just that they aren't in the game. I will agree that in itself is poor writing - you always need to SHOW your character development, instead of just telling your audience to accept it - but there are possibilities.
Consider this:
Liara feels guilty about not doing anything to save Shepard (she says this in the comics - recovering the body is part of her redemption)
Feron sacrifices himself for her and Shepard or she gets him killed (feels guilty about dragging someone else into her quest)
Liara feels very guilty about giving the body to Cerberus
The Shadow Broker aggresively attempts to kill her for 2 years

I think the last part is very important, as it forces her to become "harder" in order to just survive. Since she sees the threat the Shadow Broker poses, she decides to fight back. Her guilt can very easily play into this and make her even more determined. Now you have a kind character who is totally alone - having lost her closest friend/lover, as well as the only other person who has helped her (ie, Feron) - with one of the most powerful and nasty people in the galaxy after her. It makes a lot more sense that she would be angry, paranoid and somewhat overwhelmed by the time Shepard meets up with her.

However, the game really should have TOLD the player this. Perhaps they didn't want to spoil the comic? I dunno, but either way is not a very good excuse.

[screwoffreg]

It never says the Shadow Broker has been trying to kill Liara for two years, only that he is watching her. You don't watch someone for that long you want dead. Maybe he sees her as collateral, if the Collectors fall he can use her in "horse swapping" with Shepard. Hell, it would be funny if he was actually keeping her ALIVE this whole time for that purpose.

[Driveninhifi]

AndroLeonidas wrote...

How long did it take for Liara to actually recover his body and give it to Cerberus? Does anyone know? A week? A month? Miranda and Jacob  told him they had him for two years and twelve days.

The comics are a couple weeks to a month after Shepard's death. They can't take place over a very long period of time - I'd say a week or two?
As a note: Jacob says Shepard has been dead for 2 years and 12 days, not that they've had him that long. He immediately says they've had him ALMOST that entire time, but I think he means that's the time since the Collector attack.

As for the Shadow Broker using Liara: I would guess he is trying to figure out what she knows/leverage her info without her knowing it. Still, seems like a very dangerous game to play; she already got the better of him once, it would be better to get rid of her before Shepard comes back. If the two team up, as they undoubtedly will, the Shadow Broker suddenly has a huge problem on his hands.

[screwoffreg]

Driveninhifi wrote...

AndroLeonidas wrote...

How long did it take for Liara to actually recover his body and give it to Cerberus? Does anyone know? A week? A month? Miranda and Jacob  told him they had him for two years and twelve days.

The comics are a couple weeks to a month after Shepard's death. They can't take place over a very long period of time - I'd say a week or two?
As a note: Jacob says Shepard has been dead for 2 years and 12 days, not that they've had him that long. He immediately says they've had him ALMOST that entire time, but I think he means that's the time since the Collector attack.

As for the Shadow Broker using Liara: I would guess he is trying to figure out what she knows/leverage her info without her knowing it. Still, seems like a very dangerous game to play; she already got the better of him once, it would be better to get rid of her before Shepard comes back. If the two team up, as they undoubtedly will, the Shadow Broker suddenly has a huge problem on his hands.

Even IF Shepard and Liara team up against the Broker, his organization is one of the most powerful in the Galaxy.  With the Reapers closing in, probably within a year, the last thing Shepard needs is a bitter war against someone who could make his road VERY uncomfortable.  Look at how Garrus' team fell apart one by one.  I am sure the Shadow Broker could slow down Shepard considerably, unless Bioware takes the cheap route of "OMG WE FOUND HIS SECRET BASE AND HE IS DUMB ENOUGH NOT TO LEAVE!!!".

[JPfanner]

AndroLeonidas wrote...
Actually... she states right in the game that Cerberus told her they could bring him back to life. They just didn't clarify as to why.

I was talking about the sequence of events revealed in the comic series.  In Redemption 1 when Liara is talking to TIM he tells her that the Shadow Broker is selling Shepard's body to the Collectors.  When she wants to know why Cerberus is so interested in Shepard's body he tells her that he doesn't expect an asari to understand human traditions and that regardless they would want to deny the Collector's the body.
So as of yet in the comics Liara doesn't know Cerberus believes they can bring Shepard back, she's going after the body out of respect for Shepard and to save the body from whatever the Collectors plan to do with it.
If I had to guess, I would assume that Liara is planning to NOT turn the body over to Cerberus, and it isn't until they reveal that they believe they can bring Shepard back that she makes the decision to turn the body over to them for the chance to have Shepard back.

[Noxis6]

Sure he could be using her but you can ask why,I almost bet he has better sources and Shepard or not he cannot let it stand that she killed his highest ranking agent on Illium,he has to act now.

To send a message to his enemies that nonone messes with him or simply because Liara is getting to close.

[screwoffreg]

Noxis6 wrote...

Sure he could be using her but you can ask why,I almost bet he has better sources and Shepard or not he cannot let it stand that she killed his highest ranking agent on Illium,he has to act now.
To send a message to his enemies that nonone messes with him or simply because Liara is getting to close.

Maybe that is the price for Shepard.  Liara gets to live, but must end her information business, and Shepard gets some help on the Reaper threat, maybe valuable information on Dark Energy (remember Gianna Parisini mentions dark energy research is big on Illium) and how it might be used.  In turn, the Shadow Broker gets to walk away in a tacit alliance with Shepard. 

I can see this being a sort of loyalty mission.  Can you convince Liara to give up her quest to kill the Broker for the higher mission, destroying the Reapers?

[AndroLeonidas]

Driveninhifi wrote...

AndroLeonidas wrote...

How long did it take for Liara to actually recover his body and give it to Cerberus? Does anyone know? A week? A month? Miranda and Jacob  told him they had him for two years and twelve days.

The comics are a couple weeks to a month after Shepard's death. They can't take place over a very long period of time - I'd say a week or two?
As a note: Jacob says Shepard has been dead for 2 years and 12 days, not that they've had him that long. He immediately says they've had him ALMOST that entire time, but I think he means that's the time since the Collector attack.

As for the Shadow Broker using Liara: I would guess he is trying to figure out what she knows/leverage her info without her knowing it. Still, seems like a very dangerous game to play; she already got the better of him once, it would be better to get rid of her before Shepard comes back. If the two team up, as they undoubtedly will, the Shadow Broker suddenly has a huge problem on his hands.

Hmmmm... I thought for sure either Miranda or Jacob said Cerberus has been rebuilding him for two years. Thought he said it on the station right after they meet up. I could be wrong. I'll have to do another playthrough sometime and check. You could be right. Still doesn't address how Cerberus knew to have all this ready to go. Say the comics take place over two-three weeks. Can Cerberus put Project Lazurus together in that amount of time? Maybe. I just think it's more feasible that at least TIM had some idea what was going to happen. He is just too smooth in the game when he first greets Shepard.

Of course... I could just be reading stuff into it as well.

I'm a writer as well, two published books, three SW fan fics and four original sci-fi/fantasy novels to my credit. I think like this sometimes. lol! How does it all tie in? At this point without a major epiphany from the last two issues of the comics... someone dropped the ball in a major way. And yes... while I have romanced Miranda and I very much like her character... Liara is and always will be my favorite.

[AndroLeonidas]

double post. sorry

Modifié par AndroLeonidas, 01 mars 2010 - 10:20 .