50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Noxis6]

jtav wrote...

Hello again everyone. Thanks for not running me out the thread last night.

I don't know if this has been discussed before or how controversial it is, but I hope our choice regarding Liara in ME3 doesn't come down to "she takes over the SB's operation and becomes completely evil" or "she reverts to her ME personality and role completely and irrevocably." She's done quite well for herself on Illium considering her lack of experience, so she's got some natural skill at being an information broker. Imagine what she could do with the SBs resources. She could be a tremendous force for good. I find the idea of her exercising that degree of power, in her own right, very appealing. For the record, I want Miranda to take over Cerberus and Tali to become an admiral. I'm not trying to write anyone out or diminish the romance They can still have their romance with Shep (if applicable) but they're my favorite characters and I want them doing important things that have nothing to do with him/her, too.

Well to take a Garrus quote from ME1 out of context "This is you show Shepard"in the end this is what applys to the trilogy its Shepards show not Liaras,not Mirandas or anyone elses so in the end it will limit the developement of the rest of the cast.
I agree though their should be a choice which direction Liaras character should take,as for taking over the SBs organisation and turning it into a force of good I would say that would be I dont know weak writing,bear in mind that the SB runs an organisation that is amoral and only intrested in making profit,having Liara walk in and suddenly turn it around would be just unrealistic,besides I pointed out earlier I dont think we need her for a TIM like role there are enough characters out there to fill that in ME3 already
Besides her contribution as an information broker against an enemy that cannot be infiltrated at all seems more then doubtfull and when it comes to hacking a reaper thats what EDI was designed for I would guess.
As for romance content I'm not really a fan of having to run back to a certain location all the time to advance the romance,but what I see being a bigger problem here is in the end squadmates get the most content be it dialogue or development,it was always this way and I doubt it will change for ME3

[Marcin K]

pic time:Liara-style bow:

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Noxis6 wrote...

Well to take a Garrus quote from ME1 out of context "This is you show Shepard"in the end this is what applys to the trilogy its Shepards show not Liaras,not Mirandas or anyone elses so in the end it will limit the developement of the rest of the cast.
I agree though their should be a choice which direction Liaras character should take,as for taking over the SBs organisation and turning it into a force of good I would say that would be I dont know weak writing,bear in mind that the SB runs an organisation that is amoral and only intrested in making profit,having Liara walk in and suddenly turn it around would be just unrealistic,besides I pointed out earlier I dont think we need her for a TIM like role there are enough characters out there to fill that in ME3 already
Besides her contribution as an information broker against an enemy that cannot be infiltrated at all seems more then doubtfull and when it comes to hacking a reaper thats what EDI was designed for I would guess.
As for romance content I'm not really a fan of having to run back to a certain location all the time to advance the romance,but what I see being a bigger problem here is in the end squadmates get the most content be it dialogue or development,it was always this way and I doubt it will change for ME3

I dont agree with that line of thinking.

It wasnt "Shepards show" when he completely failed and got killed and taken out of action for two years until Cerberus bailed him out.

It also wasnt Shepards show when the player controlled joker (one of the worst moments of the entire game IMO, I utterly detested it).

Bioware has shown that its not always about Shepard, sometimes in extremely poor ways. Cameoing off a character like Liara, or depriving her of her squadmate role is going to do more harm then good.

Unlike the ME2 squad, she is the only character certain to be alive, followed closely by the Virmire survivor. Some stupid "support role" isnt going to cut it for me. Thats better left to the potentially dead ME2 squad. She had her crappy support role in ME2 so as to be saved for ME3. I dont believe anything less than a full on squadmate role again will do.

[jtav]

justin: are you my twin or something? She doesn't have to be an information broker, but I'd very much like Liara's epilogue to indicate that she's doing something important separate from her relationship with Shepard. Maybe she becomes the most famous archeologist in Citadel Space. Maybe she becomes influential on Thessia in a few centuries.

[Noxis6]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

I think that ultimately at some point Liara will discover a way to fight the Reapers, or for organics to resist indoctrination, probably once the SB is dealt with.

Along with the Virmire survivor, Liara is absolutely 100% guaranteed to be in ME3, and consequently you expect her along with Ashley and Kaidan to have a large role, and something that will have a huge effect on the story. If Liara does indeed find something that severely weakens the Reapers, perhaps Ash and Kaidan will function to get the Alliance back on Shepard's side and that, if they have indeed become the second human Spectre as theorised, they can get the Citadel Council back on Shepard's side too.

Liara's going to have a large story role in ME3, I'm almost certain of it. Squadmate status, along with Ash and Kaidan is also a cert too.

Well I think the whole counter the indoctrination thing,is more like Shepards job,of course Liara could give out the location to find clues for this,actually earlier before they announced ME2 I always thought that would be a big plotpoint going through prothean ruins finding more on the reapers maybe finding stuff to battle them

As for needing Ash/Kaidan to get the council I doubt that the way I see the ending of ME2 Shepard has all the evidence s/he needs to get the galaxy to rally behing him/her,of course that wouldnt stop Bioware from another BS move like having the council declare Shepard gone rogue so their little world doesnt get shattered

Overall I still hope for squadmate status and in a perfect world Liara and the Virmire survivor would be the starting squad in ME3 but in reallity I doubt it somewhat

[Noxis6]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...
I dont agree with that line of thinking.

It wasnt "Shepards show" when he completely failed and got killed and taken out of action for two years until Cerberus bailed him out.

It also wasnt Shepards show when the player controlled joker (one of the worst moments of the entire game IMO, I utterly detested it).

Bioware has shown that its not always about Shepard, sometimes in extremely poor ways. Cameoing off a character like Liara, or depriving her of her squadmate role is going to do more harm then good.

Unlike the ME2 squad, she is the only character certain to be alive, followed closely by the Virmire survivor. Some stupid "support role" isnt going to cut it for me. Thats better left to the potentially dead ME2 squad. She had her crappy support role in ME2 so as to be saved for ME3. I dont believe anything less than a full on squadmate role again will do.

Well Shepard is the main character in the end,as for the whole killing off thing frankly it was just idiotic,as for Joker personally I think it was a bit funny but the whole thing is also stupid why does the whole squad have to leave and why does my crew need to get taken by the collectors it makes zero sense
To go back to Shepard in the end s/he is the center of the games plot everything else will revolve around this

Overall I'm not so completely sure Liara will get full squadmate status in the worst case we just get another load of throw away characters,at least that how the ME2 squad felt like,its not that I hate them but there sure is the risk they get thrown in the trash because they can die

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Noxis6 wrote...
Well Shepard is the main character in the end,as for the whole killing off thing frankly it was just idiotic,as for Joker personally I think it was a bit funny but the whole thing is also stupid why does the whole squad have to leave and why does my crew need to get taken by the collectors it makes zero sense
To go back to Shepard in the end s/he is the center of the games plot everything else will revolve around this

Overall I'm not so completely sure Liara will get full squadmate status in the worst case we just get another load of throw away characters,at least that how the ME2 squad felt like,its not that I hate them but there sure is the risk they get thrown in the trash because they can die

I agree, but unless Bioware are totally stupid, they cant wuss out like they did with ME2.

ME2 felt like an experiment more than "part 2 of the Mass Effect trilogy". As you said, the characters feel disposable, some even outright telegraph their lack of longevity to you. The plot is completely unrelated, unimpressive, and ties itself up completely. Its a side step, instead of a complete step forward from ME1.

Ultimately the thing I will take away most from ME2 is Biowares "lets try and pander to masses of shooter fans" experiment. Thanks to that, Bioware now hold the two most significant "sequel" landmarks in my books. Baldurs Gate II was the best Ive ever played, and Mass Effect 2 is the worst.

I certainly hope Bioware do "expect great things from themselves" when it comes to Mass Effect 3, because I thought Mass Effect 2 was awful, and a huge disappointment in terms of flat out evading what was supposed to be most significant about this trilogy (your choices and your impact on the story).

Edit: I agree with LET. The most significant thing ME2 did plotwise was bury some major elements and sit on them for ME3. Thats the most positive thing I can take away from it that "well, at least SOME things look to be saved for ME3."

I know one thing, Mass Effect will no longer be a trilogy to me. It will be a two part story, bisected by that strage waste of time they called a "second act".

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 22 avril 2010 - 04:14 .

[MassAffected]

I'll have to agree, its important to me that all the squad mates grow and develop without being dependant on Shepard. Its very annoying when the relationship boils down to "hero worship". I would rather have Liara doing something important and something that is unique to her (someone mentioned archeology or using her aptitude for information dealing for good). Her and Shep can still have a great romance, without being attached at the hip. It would ruin the relationship for me if she were to follow him around like a lost puppy.

[Noxis6]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

The thing is though, ME2 advanced absolutely nothing in terms of the overall story of the trilogy. We still know nothing of the Reapers' origins, their motivations, any weaknesses, how they're going to be defeated. Nothing has changed, and that's why ME2 is more like a giant sidequest.

Ash and Kaidan get the Council and the Alliance back on your side.Wrex has the korgan, Legion the geth, Tali the quarians, the Rachni Queen with the rachni. You can see where they're going with this.

Well we found out that the reapers apparently are fans of the Terminator movies<_<
Though overall I agree on the fact that reapers werent really developed any further,as said I actually speculated that to be the mainplot of ME2 before it was announced

As for rallying the military I have some issues with the whole one single squadmate unifying the race for Shepard,in the councils/alliances case it should be mostly Shepards job to convince them,maybe with Ash/Kaidans assistance maybe,but I think they are not as prominent as some think,yes they were promoted and labaled heros but my guess is mostly to appease the supporters of Shepards claims overall I wouldnt be suprised if they got pretty much sidelined in the Alliance and in Ashleys case theres still the thing with her Grandfather unless the galaxy suddenly has forgotten
Wrex is actually the only squadmate that could rally a race,maybe Legion too, in the Quarians case I think you have to get all Admirals to agree Tali might help or not I guess thats wait and see,but the rest of the squad is not really suited for that I think

[screwoffreg]

I do believe Shepard, as an avatar for the player and their experience, really is the star which all other characters orbit around. It is clear that in ME 2 most all of the squad members "roads" converge on him/her and Shepard seems to solve all their problems.



In a way Shepard is a messianic figure. Died, rose from the dead, seen by sentient life as a savior and by the Reapers as a useful tool for "ascending" the human species to Godhood (Reaperhood).



With that said, as to Liara's role and ending, I have a few notions about where they might take her. When it comes to her ending, I imagine it will be like Baldurs Gate II. If you romance her, you get the "together" ending, maybe even something like Jaheria's where you are always together, even if you are apart as she travels. If you did not romance her, she will probably still go on to achieve great things, etc etc.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

MassAffected wrote...

I'll have to agree, its important to me that all the squad mates grow and develop without being dependant on Shepard. Its very annoying when the relationship boils down to "hero worship". I would rather have Liara doing something important and something that is unique to her (someone mentioned archeology or using her aptitude for information dealing for good). Her and Shep can still have a great romance, without being attached at the hip. It would ruin the relationship for me if she were to follow him around like a lost puppy.

So youre in favour of an entirely new squad for ME3?

Were you also against Tali and Garrus returning?

I want Garrus cameod off in ME3 not just because hes potentially dead, but also you could apply your same "lost puppy" mentality to it.

So a new squad for each game? That sucks for carryover.

[screwoffreg]

Noxis6 wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

The thing is though, ME2 advanced absolutely nothing in terms of the overall story of the trilogy. We still know nothing of the Reapers' origins, their motivations, any weaknesses, how they're going to be defeated. Nothing has changed, and that's why ME2 is more like a giant sidequest.

Ash and Kaidan get the Council and the Alliance back on your side.Wrex has the korgan, Legion the geth, Tali the quarians, the Rachni Queen with the rachni. You can see where they're going with this.

Well we found out that the reapers apparently are fans of the Terminator movies<_<
Though overall I agree on the fact that reapers werent really developed any further,as said I actually speculated that to be the mainplot of ME2 before it was announced

As for rallying the military I have some issues with the whole one single squadmate unifying the race for Shepard,in the councils/alliances case it should be mostly Shepards job to convince them,maybe with Ash/Kaidans assistance maybe,but I think they are not as prominent as some think,yes they were promoted and labaled heros but my guess is mostly to appease the supporters of Shepards claims overall I wouldnt be suprised if they got pretty much sidelined in the Alliance and in Ashleys case theres still the thing with her Grandfather unless the galaxy suddenly has forgotten
Wrex is actually the only squadmate that could rally a race,maybe Legion too, in the Quarians case I think you have to get all Admirals to agree Tali might help or not I guess thats wait and see,but the rest of the squad is not really suited for that I think

I really hope the Reaper's motives are fleshed out as it seems likely the final Paragon/Renegade choice will be to help or destroy them.

There are really some wonderfully complex things they can do with the Reapers beyond the "they are space zombies and destroy everything" as it seems now.  One could almost make the character sympathetic to their ends...

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

justinnstuff wrote...

I'm not sure where you're getting the whole "new squad" thing from his post entirely talking about Liara's interests.

Its probably because it was just recently being discussed that Liara fullfill a non-squadmate role that can be influenced by player decision rather than her being a squadmate and some of the language used.

If MassAffected was talking about the "relationship" then sorry, but I will say thats a pretty funny way of going about it, leaving a lot of language suggesting they be "apart".

[Noxis6]

screwoffreg wrote...
I really hope the Reaper's motives are fleshed out as it seems likely the final Paragon/Renegade choice will be to help or destroy them.

There are really some wonderfully complex things they can do with the Reapers beyond the "they are space zombies and destroy everything" as it seems now.  One could almost make the character sympathetic to their ends...

I dont know I thought the same thing about the darkspawn after the Architect was introduced in the DA novel,but they never evolved above being a faceless zombie army at least in the main game cant speak for Awakening since I didnt buy it

[MassAffected]

I was speaking more or less about what might happen AFTER ME3 and the Reapers are dealt with...sorry for not being clear.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

MassAffected wrote...

I was speaking more or less about what might happen AFTER ME3 and the Reapers are dealt with...sorry for not being clear.

No need to apologise, with that context your post is perfectly clear. Like I said, I was only just recently discussing Liara fullfilling a non-squadmate role, and likely got my wires crossed with your post by accident.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 22 avril 2010 - 04:47 .

[JamieCOTC]

jamskinner wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Tali__lover1915 wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Tali__lover1915 wrote...

 I'd love to see Liara in ME3 as well, but what about this talk of her having a DLC for ME2???

Is a Liara T'soni DLC in the Works for ME2?

Ah, yes, "Liara DLC."  We have dismissed that claim. 

Ah yes, "Liara DLC". The fabled DLC from BioWare expanding on the Liara T'Soni/Shadow Broker story arc. We have dismissed these claims. 

boooooo! I was soo excited when i first saw this...does anyone have the info for how/why it was dismissed?

Just joking about dismissing it. It's been talked about and talked about and I'm surprised that Internet game sites are just now talking abgout it. 

The reality is the DLC is just speculation.  Some claim that a Liara DLC was planned to come out sometime after the comic was released.  Others claim that the dialogue found on PCs was from a scene that was supposed to be in ME2 but was cut.  Neither BW or EA will comment.  Most agree that Liara's character was handled poorly, but for now it's just free press at Liara's expence. 

It is not speculation unless Mac Walters is speculating in this article.
http://comics.ign.co.../1005868p1.html

Start Quote:


IGN Comics: We know that Bioware is going to be releasing some more
downloadable content for the first Mass Effect that sort of bridges the
gap between that game and the sequel. Is this comic connected in any way
to those stories?




Walters: Actually, our goal right now is to have the story tie to
some of the downloadable content for Mass Effect 2.
That will probably be coming later next year. I don;t think we have
specific dates yet. It's meant to be standalone in the sense that it
explores something we don't necessarily see in the game, but it is
connected to the game, and in the downloadable content we hope to follow
through on some of the events in the comic.




IGN
Comics: Where does this story actually fall in relation to the two
games? Is it set in between the two?




Walters: It's shortly after the opening events of Mass
Effect 2. I can't get into a lot of details on where that is
specifically, but I think people will recognize it when they see it.


:end quote




What happens shortly into ME2?  The Destruction of the Normandy and Shepard's death.

Okay.  I stand corrected.  I just hope it isn't this:

[screwoffreg]

Noxis6 wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...
I really hope the Reaper's motives are fleshed out as it seems likely the final Paragon/Renegade choice will be to help or destroy them.

There are really some wonderfully complex things they can do with the Reapers beyond the "they are space zombies and destroy everything" as it seems now.  One could almost make the character sympathetic to their ends...

I dont know I thought the same thing about the darkspawn after the Architect was introduced in the DA novel,but they never evolved above being a faceless zombie army at least in the main game cant speak for Awakening since I didnt buy it

The zombie thing can work as it always has:

The Reapers are faceless, but are like a closing wall on the Galaxy that forces out the worst parts of human/sentient nature.  In the end, as cliched as it is, the real "monsters" are...surprise, US, sentient life with all of our faults.  Big shocker and the story has been done since BEFORE Night of the Living Dead ever came out.

I think a view of the Reapers are genuinely believing they are a force of "Good" and positive change is a profound one.  What they offer is salvation for a select species from war, want, famine, loss and even death.  Even if sentient life defeats them, their victory is doomed as such unity is destined never to last and be replaced with the cycle of violence and murder as it always has been.  With the Reapers, they offer one species, humanity, a "rapture" from that fate. 

It could be almost Biblical really.  That may be because I had a history very steeped in religion so I see the dramatic power of such stories though...

Thinking of Liara in particular, I could imagine Harbringer offering Shepard at the end the opportunty to be "forever united" with their romance in a perfect union as a God-Machine or something similiar.

Modifié par screwoffreg, 22 avril 2010 - 04:49 .