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[MassAffected]

I figured that Cerberus already added some Reaper bits to Shep...just seems like something they would do. Noxis, would be kind of cool if Grayson became the "new Saren" and was a major villain in ME3.

[screwoffreg]

Noxis6 wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

I dont know if what was found in Kasumis quest really is an indicator for this,actually my money is more on the Alliance did something really stupid with the wreckage or with the parts they got from it maybe even rebuilding Sovereign,but in the end Kasumi is a DLC so effects on the main plot are doubtfull to say the least

As for reaper implants in Shepard I said earlier that already might be the case given how careless Cerberus plays around with that kind of technology,though the effects may be limited,because of the whole preserve Shepards personallity thing,I guess they will go all out on Grayson well I wonder what happens maybe he will be the face of the reapers in ME3

Well, assuming they did rebuild Sovereign or, like the Batarians, capture large amounts of Reaper tech, that is a recipe for indoctrination which means they HAVE been infiltrated by the Reapers.  Also just because its a DLC doesnt mean it can't hint to what lies ahead without addressing something directly.  I am sure the expansion will have a huge amount of plot pointers to ME 3, but at the same time, not being mandatory to play, many players could miss it nonetheless.

The greatest strength of Reaper technology, their crowning glory, is the "collective mind" they have, as Legion says itself.  Cerberus wants their technology and I am sure if TIM could, he would have a human Reaper.  That is a half-step away from becoming the Reapers themselves.

[Nozybidaj]

screwoffreg wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

The newest Bioware book deals with Reaper implants in humans.  What if the Reapers captured Shepard somehow and implanted his body with their technology and allowed him to return to his "mission".  He would hear their voice, understand their minds, and perhaps ,with time, be their real Harbringer.

As astonishingly lame as that will be I've been expecting it ever since we saw the first picture of Renegade Shep's scars.

It would only be lame if it is written badly.  How much lamer would it be if the Reapers turn out to be machines like in Terminator and you blow them up and everyone runs off into the sunset skipping through fields of green?

/shrug I rather like the idea of Shepard as a paragon of humanity fighting against overwhelming odds and saving the day (to put it simply).

I understand you are much the same mind as Mac and that grimdark is the only cool way to write (don't take that too harshly) but not everyone finds overtly depressing and terribly cliche 'the hero is the villain zomg' story lines to be entertaining. There is nothing wrong with uplifting stories even if it isn't considered "cool" and "amped up".

[screwoffreg]

Nozybidaj wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

The newest Bioware book deals with Reaper implants in humans.  What if the Reapers captured Shepard somehow and implanted his body with their technology and allowed him to return to his "mission".  He would hear their voice, understand their minds, and perhaps ,with time, be their real Harbringer.

As astonishingly lame as that will be I've been expecting it ever since we saw the first picture of Renegade Shep's scars.

It would only be lame if it is written badly.  How much lamer would it be if the Reapers turn out to be machines like in Terminator and you blow them up and everyone runs off into the sunset skipping through fields of green?

/shrug I rather like the idea of Shepard as a paragon of humanity fighting against overwhelming odds and saving the day (to put it simply).

I understand you are much the same mind as Mac and that grimdark is the only cool way to write (don't take that too harshly) but not everyone finds overtly depressing and terribly cliche 'the hero is the villain zomg' story lines to be entertaining. There is nothing wrong with uplifting stories even if it isn't considered "cool" and "amped up".

Well, I personally like the good endings, too.  I think thats why we have the Paragon/Renegade scale.  For those who want the happy feel-good ending, then there is the Paragon choices.  I can't forsee what the Renegade choice in ME 3 would be other than:

Join the Reapers or use their techonology to become as powerful as them or like them, in other words.

Getting back to Liara, if they save the SB resolution for the expansion, I can think of a few interesting ways to have that play into ME 3.

Harbringer was with the SB, physically. The SB failed them.  What do you think they might do to him because of that?

The Reapers saw Liara's utter devotion to Shepard, probably a display of "weakness"  to them.

The Reapers greatest strength is not their fleets but information and using that to manipulate events in their favor.

The SB so far has not acted against Liara except to "watch" her, especially when it seems Shepard shows up.

Interesting is all I will say....interesting.

Modifié par screwoffreg, 22 avril 2010 - 05:42 .

[Nozybidaj]

screwoffreg wrote...
Interesting is all I will say....interesting.

That's one way to put it.  Not the words I would have chosen, but to each their own.

[Noxis6]

screwoffreg wrote...
Well, assuming they did rebuild Sovereign or, like the Batarians, capture large amounts of Reaper tech, that is a recipe for indoctrination which means they HAVE been infiltrated by the Reapers.  Also just because its a DLC doesnt mean it can't hint to what lies ahead without addressing something directly.  I am sure the expansion will have a huge amount of plot pointers to ME 3, but at the same time, not being mandatory to play, many players could miss it nonetheless.

The greatest strength of Reaper technology, their crowning glory, is the "collective mind" they have, as Legion says itself.  Cerberus wants their technology and I am sure if TIM could, he would have a human Reaper.  That is a half-step away from becoming the Reapers themselves.

Well from what I got from Kasumi DLC,the real danger was that the data could spark a war or something like that,so rebuilding Sovereign might be the way to go for that since it would show human ambition to dominate the galaxy escpecially if you went renegade in the first game.
If that would really lead to infiltration is still a bit doubtfull since Sovereigns "soul" is gone when it was blown up,so while indoctrination is still a dange I doubt they could reproduce Sovereign how he was before

[MassAffected]

I just don't see the Paragon/Renegade scale as Good/Evil. I think that a Renegade Shepard should be able to get a "happy ending" as well, just as a Paragon Shep should be able to royally **** everything up.

[Noxis6]

screwoffreg wrote...
Well, I personally like the good endings, too.  I think thats why we have the Paragon/Renegade scale.  For those who want the happy feel-good ending, then there is the Paragon choices.  I can't forsee what the Renegade choice in ME 3 would be other than:

Join the Reapers or use their techonology to become as powerful as them or like them, in other words.

Getting back to Liara, if they save the SB resolution for the expansion, I can think of a few interesting ways to have that play into ME 3.

Harbringer was with the SB, physically. The SB failed them.  What do you think they might do to him because of that?

The Reapers saw Liara's utter devotion to Shepard, probably a display of "weakness"  to them.

The Reapers greatest strength is not their fleets but information and using that to manipulate events in their favor.

The SB so far has not acted against Liara except to "watch" her, especially when it seems Shepard shows up.

Interesting is all I will say....interesting.

Well I would call a large amount of dreadnought class ships a strength of the reapers,besides they overall dont seem that manipulative but rather blunt,of course Sovereign had to make up an elaborate plot because of the Keepers not reacting to his signal but beyond that they dont seem "stealthy"

As for the SB if the reapers are really in control shouldnt they use his information network to I dont know spark wars or economical crises,something to weaken the galaxy so they have an easier way,in Liaras case it might explain we the SB just watches her,but how does he know Shepard was going to get revived two years ago and besides that if he really watches Liara to get to Shepard why doesnt the SB act when Shepard appears

[MassAffected]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

So screw, what you're saying is that the Reapers could use Liara as a tool to manipulate Shepard, most likely through kidnapping her and holding her to ransom?

Hmm. I don't want to do the whole "Rescue Liara" thing again as I think she's alot more of a stronger and more competant character than that.

I agree, she is no longer the "damsel in distress"...she is an extremely competent person and a powerful biotic.

[IndigoWolfe]

jlb524 wrote...

Liara and Shepard (and crew) bringing down the SB and his/her/its network is a bit far-fetched. Though, they did all manage to travel beyond the Omega 4 relay and destroy the Collectors so...maybe not.

I'm on board with the notion that the SB is in deep with the Reapers (might even be suffering under a 'light' indoctrination like Saren). If not, and Liara/Shep and Co. take the SB down in a tiny 4 hour DLC mission, that's kind of dumb.

Now that is an interesting thought, the SB being under 'light' indoctrination. And it would explain a lot of things and open up possibilities.

If the Shadow Broker is slightly indoctrinated, that would explain why he is acting differently. Feron mentioned it in Redemption that the Shadow Broker had a dramatic change in demeanor when he started dealing with the Collectors. A character in Mass Effect: Revelation was slightly indoctrinated, and it was highlighted that he had a definte change in character, doing things he would never have normally done. This may be the case with the Shadow Broker.

And if so, then it might account for you being able to take him down or at least strike a blow against him in whatever DLC Bioware may be cooking up. The Shadow Broker may be starting become more reckless and is beginning to slip up. And all it would really take for someone in their position --with an incredibly intricate and delicate web of contacts, secrecy, wealth and power-- is one bad slip up for everything to start coming apart.


Apologies if someone's already brought this up, I read this a while back and didn't want to wait to write down my thoughts long enough for me to read the entire backlog.

[screwoffreg]

Noxis6 wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...
Well, I personally like the good endings, too.  I think thats why we have the Paragon/Renegade scale.  For those who want the happy feel-good ending, then there is the Paragon choices.  I can't forsee what the Renegade choice in ME 3 would be other than:

Join the Reapers or use their techonology to become as powerful as them or like them, in other words.

Getting back to Liara, if they save the SB resolution for the expansion, I can think of a few interesting ways to have that play into ME 3.

Harbringer was with the SB, physically. The SB failed them.  What do you think they might do to him because of that?

The Reapers saw Liara's utter devotion to Shepard, probably a display of "weakness"  to them.

The Reapers greatest strength is not their fleets but information and using that to manipulate events in their favor.

The SB so far has not acted against Liara except to "watch" her, especially when it seems Shepard shows up.

Interesting is all I will say....interesting.

Well I would call a large amount of dreadnought class ships a strength of the reapers,besides they overall dont seem that manipulative but rather blunt,of course Sovereign had to make up an elaborate plot because of the Keepers not reacting to his signal but beyond that they dont seem "stealthy"

As for the SB if the reapers are really in control shouldnt they use his information network to I dont know spark wars or economical crises,something to weaken the galaxy so they have an easier way,in Liaras case it might explain we the SB just watches her,but how does he know Shepard was going to get revived two years ago and besides that if he really watches Liara to get to Shepard why doesnt the SB act when Shepard appears

Well if everything was logical there'd be no story, lol.  That's like saying why did the Eagles in Lord of the Rings not fly Frodo right over Mt  Doom and drop the ring in?  There'd be no drama...

Also the Reapers obviously don't like direct confrontations, thats why they prefer the Citadel method of surprise and shutting down the relays and communications.  Also think that each Reaper ship took millions if not billions of lives to produce.  That's a hell of a loss when one is destroyed.

The Prothean VI said the reason the Reapers defeated them was that they "knew everything beforehand", in other words that had been gathering information for a long time and used it to pick apart the Empire.

Also, I don't think Liara is in danger of being kidnapped.  The Reapers wouldn't care about her beyond her ability to give them what they want.

[Marcin K]

 whoa no pic?

not now:)

[screwoffreg]

Anyway I am just speculating and 100 percent wrong anyway. I am just pulling at the barest threads of evidence we do have. Like I said, logic usually has little to do with stories...usually it is just the whims of the creators that matter...

[MassAffected]

screwoffreg wrote...

Anyway I am just speculating and 100 percent wrong anyway. I am just pulling at the barest threads of evidence we do have. Like I said, logic usually has little to do with stories...usually it is just the whims of the creators that matter...

Well the Prothean VI says that the main reason the Reapers knew everything was because they captured the Citadel, which was the heart of galactic politics. Inside were housed all the star charts of colonies and military deployments and the like. That, of course, doesn't mean that they didn't do a lot of recon work before they attacked.

[screwoffreg]

The only thing I can be fairly certain of, as far as one can say that, is that Liara will probably play a major role in whatever is to come.



I don't see her as a damsel in distress at all...



Like I said though, the Bioware writers obviously know they can do whatever the hell they want and since ME 3 will be sort of a standalone experience and the LAST game, they can get away with everything.



They can turn Liara back into the image of a naive scientist or they can make her Darth Sidious. Who knows whats in their mind.

[screwoffreg]

yorkj86 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

I understand you are much the same mind as Mac and that grimdark is the only cool way to write (don't take that too harshly) but not everyone finds overtly depressing and terribly cliche 'the hero is the villain zomg' story lines to be entertaining. There is nothing wrong with uplifting stories even if it isn't considered "cool" and "amped up".

I agree.   Only WH40K  has to be grimdark all of the time.  Let's have a happy ending.

I think you are missing my point.

A good epic makes you feel like there is actually something at stake, something to lose, and that there is a sense of sacrifice.  You can love or hate Bioware's attempt at turning Liara and ME 2 dark.  You can say it was heavy handed and not well done, etcetc.

The bottom line is, ANY writer would have probably taken a similiar philosophy.  A victory too easily gained with NOTHING lost or no real sense of foreboding would be the most uninteresting story ever.

I often think during movies "why didnt character x just do this so they could avoid that" or "why didnt the writers just let them y so they could be together".  The reason?  If writers gave us EVERYTHING we want upfront, there'd be no tension, no emotional impact. As much as we may think we WANT those things, once we would get them, I would guarantee this forum would be on fire with "wow that waslame" or "that story sucks!!!!"

[bjdbwea]

Nozybidaj wrote...

/shrug I rather like the idea of Shepard as a paragon of humanity fighting against overwhelming odds and saving the day (to put it simply).

I understand you are much the same mind as Mac and that grimdark is the only cool way to write (don't take that too harshly) but not everyone finds overtly depressing and terribly cliche 'the hero is the villain zomg' story lines to be entertaining. There is nothing wrong with uplifting stories even if it isn't considered "cool" and "amped up".

I agree. If people want to join the Reapers at the end of ME 3, then let them. But I for one am more tired of this "cool" grey and "not everything is as it seems" stuff than I am of nice happy ends. Those supposed "mature" twists and endings are more difficult to write, and that's why quite often they feel simply forced and unnecessary. Oh, I like difficult decisions and moral questions in my games, very much so, but once all is said and done, I indeed want to see my PC ride into the sunset, preferably together with the LI, if any. It's one reason why I found the "ending" of KotoR 2 so terrible. KotoR 1 ended pretty much with a cliff hanger too, but at least it was presented nicely.

[MassAffected]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

The Reapers losing the advantage of the Citadel is one of the reasons why I think they may have indoctrinated the Shadow Broker, are using him like a tool, and that Liara is aware of this fact and therefore still aware of the bigger picture regarding the whole Reaper plot, which we need to give her credit for.

Think about it, if the Reapers have the SB under their wing, then they essentially have a blueprint of galactic civilization. Various species, homeplanets, colonies, governments, economics, militaries, alliances. The Reapers gain what they lost when the Citadel relay became inaccessible to them.

Liara has a data cache in her possession that details the full extent of the Shadow Broker's dealings with the Collectors, and by proxy the Reapers. We know this from Redemption. I think she is aware of just how deep the SB is in with the Reapers, and when the time is right will alert Shepard to this fact and inform her of everything she knows.

Liara obviously wouldn't let Shepard know about this beforehand due to the suicide mission. She knows Shepard has got alot on her plate already, and that there's a good chance she could die. Why risk Shepard's life further by adding in the worry of the Shadow Broker aiding the Reapers? Liara would not tell Shepard to protect her, to ensure that she isn't distracted, and to ensure that her lover comes home alive.

Using the SB as another source of information since losing the Citadel would make sense.

[screwoffreg]

I have a feeling the SB may not even be alive anymore. His agents don't know who he is, so if the Reapers just murdered him, or if he was an AI and they just took control of it, who would notice? Harbringer might be in full control of the SB network.

Modifié par screwoffreg, 22 avril 2010 - 06:21 .

[MassAffected]

screwoffreg wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

I understand you are much the same mind as Mac and that grimdark is the only cool way to write (don't take that too harshly) but not everyone finds overtly depressing and terribly cliche 'the hero is the villain zomg' story lines to be entertaining. There is nothing wrong with uplifting stories even if it isn't considered "cool" and "amped up".

I agree.   Only WH40K  has to be grimdark all of the time.  Let's have a happy ending.

I think you are missing my point.

A good epic makes you feel like there is actually something at stake, something to lose, and that there is a sense of sacrifice.  You can love or hate Bioware's attempt at turning Liara and ME 2 dark.  You can say it was heavy handed and not well done, etcetc.

The bottom line is, ANY writer would have probably taken a similiar philosophy.  A victory too easily gained with NOTHING lost or no real sense of foreboding would be the most uninteresting story ever.

I often think during movies "why didnt character x just do this so they could avoid that" or "why didnt the writers just let them y so they could be together".  The reason?  If writers gave us EVERYTHING we want upfront, there'd be no tension, no emotional impact. As much as we may think we WANT those things, once we would get them, I would guarantee this forum would be on fire with "wow that waslame" or "that story sucks!!!!"

I can agree with this...I want that feeling that at any moment everything could go to ****. That is why I hope there are bad and good endings for both Paragons and Renegades.

[Ellest]

*Waves* Just stopping by to offer a friendly 'hello' from the Kaidan thread and to offer support for all of the ME1 LIs

[Nozybidaj]

screwoffreg wrote...
 If writers gave us EVERYTHING we want upfront, there'd be no tension, no emotional impact.

No tension, no emotional impact?  I'd swear you just described ME2 to me.