50907 réponses à ce sujet

[screwoffreg]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Using James Cameron as an example,  both Aliens and T2 are significantly lighter and more hopeful than their predecessors and there aren't many people who would say they aren't as interesting or exciting as the originals.

Also in terms of a romance story, the second act of Titanic is not the "darkest act" (in reference to ME2 dark act of the romance structure), it is probably the most fun part of the film where the two leads have fun and you know, act like they're in a relationship (act one - meeting and start of relationship, act two - exploring the relationship).  The "dark" act is the third.  Not all stories need to follow the same structure.

Trilogy, mate.  Notice the key word.  Most movies pass through phases that vary a lot and I am sure you'll find a trilogy that doesn't match my point.  Darker is a bad word, perhaps introducing more conflict, both internal and external, as well as leaving an ending that does not satisfy.

Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back has a lot of revelations and ends with a Han Solo captured and uncertain futures for the characters. 

Godfather2 : Killing your brother counts as rough.  Though I will say the series should have stopped here...I pretend the third movie doesn't exist...

Lord of the Rings: Second movie had some sadness to it with the Fellowship over and everyone growing distant, but it had a lot of hopeful scenes as well.  The Two Towers is actually my favorite movie for Theoden's monologue alone...

Anyway, my point is the second part of a series usually introduces a lot of new, and sometimes jarring, material and issues that can at times seem hopeless/rough/dark/whatever you want to title it.  They aren't usually resolved and they carry over to the end.

ME 2 is a mixed bag, but overall I still think that several of its open plot "roads" can end well and be salvaged to those who think it was crap.  I personally got my money's worth and enjoy the series very much, in SPITE of my feelings about certain characters and plot points.

Modifié par screwoffreg, 22 avril 2010 - 10:21 .

[AZ RUSH]

Could you snip parts of the conversation , thanks

[MassAffected]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Yeah, Liara has experienced too much and suffered way too much to simply revert to her naive, innocent and worldly look at the galaxy.

What she still does have in spades though is her compassion, and her caring, kind attitude. Though she's been through alot, she still retains those as they are vital aspects of her personality.

Agreed.

[bjdbwea]

JE is not a bad game, I can recommend it. But it was a sign of things to come, as it was dumbed down and railroaded very much to please casual gamers. When I played ME 1, I thought BioWare had found their way to please RPG fans as well as action fans. Only to dumb ME 2 down so much, that if not for the violence, it's almost like a game for little children at times, during some of the ridiculously daft side quests.

[AZ RUSH]

bjdbwea wrote...

JE is not a bad game, I can recommend it. But it was a sign of things to come, as it was dumbed down and railroaded very much to please casual gamers. When I played ME 1, I thought BioWare had found their way to please RPG fans as well as action fans. Only to dumb ME 2 down so much, that if not for the violence, it's almost like a game for little children at times, during some of the ridiculously daft side quests.

By "dumbing down" ME2 Bioware was able to open up to a much larger fan group. Both RPG and FPS gamers.  I like the shooter element more, but would rather have an inventory than scanning the damn planets<_<

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Honestly I have to wonder at some of the decisions in ME2.



Can they honestly say ME2 is superior when they know how they clipped the romances? When they know nearly all of the non-combat side missions of ME2 take all but 5 minutes and dont even require leaving an area. When most of the other side missions are basically combat oriented? When characters barely even interact with eachother in the entire game?



The ME1 squad were absolutle chatterboxes compared to the ME2 squad, both in terms of conversation with Shepard, and between themselves, and just outright activated interjections.



Its astonishing how much the game loses when you can no longer click on a squadmate and hear a quirky or pertinent comment.



All of the ME1 squads comments on the "mass relay statue" were just pure brilliant given the later revelation. Kaidans in particular was superb. I cannot ONCE think of a time an ME2 squadmate said anything remotely close to that. Sure they may at times have the occasional cute or funny bit of dialogue in conversation with Shepard, but not much else.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

AZ RUSH wrote...

By "dumbing down" ME2 Bioware was able to open up to a much larger fan group. Both RPG and FPS gamers.  I like the shooter element more, but would rather have an inventory than scanning the damn planets<_<

Do you know that for sure though? I know ME2 had a positive early release, but since then I havent heard a peep from it in terms of encouraging sales. If its already massively outsold ME1, I think we would have heard. The problem is there is no reliable source on these things. I would be utterly shocked if ME2 has already strongly outsold ME1. Im sure it will sell more in its lifetime, but I cant imagine it would double ME1s sales or anything like that.

[MassAffected]

@ Dink: I do miss the "Hmmm" conversations from ME1 a lot. It was especially awesome when Ash and Kaiden talked about Husks on Eden Prime...really made me feel like the teammates were truly "alive" and not just another gun/power wheel.

[AZ RUSH]

I like RPG elements like that as well, don't get me wrong. It's just now Bioware has expanded their fan base, and introduced many FPS gamers to a RPG's in a smooth transition. I believe that ME3 will return to more RPG elements well maintaining the great shooter elements.

But maybe I'm too optimistic.

[AZ RUSH]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

AZ RUSH wrote...

By "dumbing down" ME2 Bioware was able to open up to a much larger fan group. Both RPG and FPS gamers.  I like the shooter element more, but would rather have an inventory than scanning the damn planets<_<

Do you know that for sure though? I know ME2 had a positive early release, but since then I havent heard a peep from it in terms of encouraging sales. If its already massively outsold ME1, I think we would have heard. The problem is there is no reliable source on these things. I would be utterly shocked if ME2 has already strongly outsold ME1. Im sure it will sell more in its lifetime, but I cant imagine it would double ME1s sales or anything like that.

No I'm not positive, I personally have heard much more talk about ME2 than ME1 though.

[Asheer_Khan]

But apparently shooter fan base get let say better part of the cake because they recived great game FOR the shooter standard... when RPG fans recived rather small portion of such cake.

But is that part big in off to made me stick whit them... i am not so sure.

[bjdbwea]

AZ RUSH wrote...

By "dumbing down" ME2 Bioware was able to open up to a much larger fan group. Both RPG and FPS gamers.

As I said, I think ME 1 achieved exactly that. As an RPG fan, I wouldn't have minded even more RPG elements, but it was fine. I bought ME 2 because I liked ME 1. But they've pretty much removed any RPG content, and completely gone down the action path. If ME 3 is more of the same, I probably would not bother. The story would have to be outstanding, and they would have to give Liara a proper role. But if that's as mediocre as in ME 2, I would not pay for this kind of gameplay again.

But I think it's better if we leave that for other threads, especially the debate if ME 2 is still an RPG.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 22 avril 2010 - 10:28 .

[Ray Joel Oh]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Do you know that for sure though? I know ME2 had a positive early release, but since then I havent heard a peep from it in terms of encouraging sales. If its already massively outsold ME1, I think we would have heard. The problem is there is no reliable source on these things. I would be utterly shocked if ME2 has already strongly outsold ME1. Im sure it will sell more in its lifetime, but I cant imagine it would double ME1s sales or anything like that.

:steps in:
Here are some figures. http://www.vgchartz....7635&region=All
http://www.vgchartz....8815&region=All

Much higher initial sales, but it drops off to a lower sales level.  Whether that's because of a saturated market or what, hard to say.
:steps out:

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

AZ RUSH wrote...

No I'm not positive, I personally have heard much more talk about ME2 than ME1 though.

I havent, but even if there is more talk, thats not surprising - ME2 is naturally riding ME1s success as a supposed "sequel", not the other way around.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 22 avril 2010 - 10:30 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Ray Joel Oh wrote...


:steps in:
Here are some figures. http://www.vgchartz....7635&region=All
http://www.vgchartz....8815&region=All

Much higher initial sales, but it drops off to a lower sales level.  Whether that's because of a saturated market or what, hard to say.
:steps out:

I wouldnt necessarily trust VGchartz as a definitive though. Not to say they are wrong, but I think its best to look at those scores as somewhat dubious so as to be safe.

[screwoffreg]

AZ RUSH wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

AZ RUSH wrote...

By "dumbing down" ME2 Bioware was able to open up to a much larger fan group. Both RPG and FPS gamers.  I like the shooter element more, but would rather have an inventory than scanning the damn planets<_<

Do you know that for sure though? I know ME2 had a positive early release, but since then I havent heard a peep from it in terms of encouraging sales. If its already massively outsold ME1, I think we would have heard. The problem is there is no reliable source on these things. I would be utterly shocked if ME2 has already strongly outsold ME1. Im sure it will sell more in its lifetime, but I cant imagine it would double ME1s sales or anything like that.

No I'm not positive, I personally have heard much more talk about ME2 than ME1 though.

It has shipped 6,000,000 units but not SOLD that many.  I think someone estimated its over 2,000,000 or about there.  For an RPG, thats not bad, and ultimately it will probably outsell ME 1, though I am not sure by how much...

It seems trying to attract the FPS crowd may not work out...but I do wish it the best sales as obviously we don't want Bioware to go the way of Bullfrog, lmao

We won't know until the next EA conference call to report out on sales...

Modifié par screwoffreg, 22 avril 2010 - 10:35 .

[JamieCOTC]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

What Dink is describing is the absolute worst case scenario, though.

Actually the absolute worst case scenario is another non-squadmate role and all the bull**** such a cameo entails.

Like it or not, Liaras place in the ME3 squad isnt certain. I know shes "saved" for ME3, but the "romance would continue" in ME2, and we saw how that played out.

Bioware could have just saved her for a plot sensitive cameo, whereas the rest of the old squadmates just get disposable cameos, bar the Virmire Survivor.

Yeah, and it's even worse for DA: Awakening. Much worse.  That said, I think both Liara and Ash/Kaiden will be squadmates in ME3, maybe not available right away, but recruitable at some point in the game ala ME2.  What I fear is that the romances will be downplayed in ME3 just because there will be so much that needs to be accomplished in the game.

[Sikayda]

I'm no Liara lover but as i was searching for music to download last night i ran across this song in which the lyrics perfectly describes Liara in ME2.

Blue Foundation - Eyes On Fire (Zeds Dead Remix)

Ciao.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

screwoffreg wrote...

It has shipped 6,000,000 units but not SOLD that many.  I think someone estimated its over 2,000,000 or about there.  For an RPG, thats not bad, and ultimately it will probably outsell ME 1, though I am not sure by how much...

It seems trying to attract the FPS crowd may not work out...but I do wish it the best sales as obviously we don't want Bioware to go the way of Bullfrog, lmao

We won't know until the next EA conference call to report out on sales...

The ONLY thing I heard is it shipped 2000000 around release. And I hear NPD (which I guess is one of the reputable outlets for these things) puts the first month sales at 570000, with the following month probably getting half that.

[WilliamShatner]

screwoffreg wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Using James Cameron as an example,  both Aliens and T2 are significantly lighter and more hopeful than their predecessors and there aren't many people who would say they aren't as interesting or exciting as the originals.

Also in terms of a romance story, the second act of Titanic is not the "darkest act" (in reference to ME2 dark act of the romance structure), it is probably the most fun part of the film where the two leads have fun and you know, act like they're in a relationship (act one - meeting and start of relationship, act two - exploring the relationship).  The "dark" act is the third.  Not all stories need to follow the same structure.

Trilogy, mate.  Notice the key word.  Most movies pass through phases that vary a lot and I am sure you'll find a trilogy that doesn't match my point.  Darker is a bad word, perhaps introducing more conflict, both internal and external, as well as leaving an ending that does not satisfy.

Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back has a lot of revelations and ends with a Han Solo captured and uncertain futures for the characters. 

Godfather2 : Killing your brother counts as rough.  Though I will say the series should have stopped here...I pretend the third movie doesn't exist...

Lord of the Rings: Second movie had some sadness to it with the Fellowship over and everyone growing distant, but it had a lot of hopeful scenes as well.  The Two Towers is actually my favorite movie for Theoden's monologue alone...

Anyway, my point is the second part of a series usually introduces a lot of new, and sometimes jarring, material and issues that can at times seem hopeless/rough/dark/whatever you want to title it.  They aren't usually resolved and they carry over to the end.

ME 2 is a mixed bag, but overall I still think that several of its open plot "roads" can end well and be salvaged to those who think it was crap.  I personally got my money's worth and enjoy the series very much, in SPITE of my feelings about certain characters and plot points.

I know we try to forget them but there was an Alien 3 and Terminator 3.

Personally I am against calling films/games "second acts of trilogies" or some crap like that because nowadays it's use more to excuse poor and lazy writing than anything else. 

Personally a trilogy should only be made if:

1.) The story requires it.
2.) The writer(s) has a clear idea of where the story is going and what each part is going to achieve (<--- I highly doubt this one in the case of ME2).
3.) Each part of the trilogy stands on its own.

Now by stands on its own I don't mean the "doesn't require seeing the previous film to understand" or "is allowed to ignore logical consistancy and continuity from the previous part" but stand alone in the sense that it works on its own as a cohesive dramatic work, just like the first part or third part, or if there was only one film.  You can't say "wait until part three for this part to be fixed".  That means part two doesn't stand on its own and that means it fails.  At the end of Empire Strikes Back we are not waiting for bewildering elements of the film to be explained or questioning what the hell certain characters were doing;  we waiting for the next part of the overall story because Empire Strikes Back works as a self contained film even if it leaves the doors opens for a finale.

Using the examples of Han Solo in Empire and (and a lesser extent) Fredo in Godfather II.  Both characters were served well in the sequels.  We had two full films to see and grow attached to the characters before their shocking moments come.  ME2 could have been handled similarly.  We could have had Liara, Ashley and Kaidan in our squad for the entire game and then the moment of peril, or the raising of the stakes could have occured.  That way we would have had two full games spend with them and our attachment to the characters would have grown, and it would have felt dramatically powerful and shocking.  Instead with them cast aside we are left empty, bewildered and angry, and the characters are not served at all well.

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 22 avril 2010 - 10:44 .

[AZ RUSH]

Please understand, I haven't once said that ME2 is better than ME1. However, myself being mainly an FPS fan, love the shooter elements, for EX: more realistic targeting, faster biotics, better physics, however; i would have liked the RPG elements to remain. I'm saying that people who have never played an RPG should start with ME2. The new FPS fan base, along with the ME1 and RPG fan base, is the reason why it is the 2nd highest rated game on XBL.

[Nozybidaj]

jtav wrote...
Simply reverting to her ME personality seems a bit of a waste and a denial of everything's she gone through.

I'd be pretty happy if they simply "denied" everything that happened in ME2 and just went back and picked up where ME1 left off, like ME2 should have in the first place.

[Nozybidaj]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...
 If its already massively outsold ME1, I think we would have heard.

Pretty sure it hasn't outsold ME1 yet.

[Jax Sparrow]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Jax Sparrow wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...  If writers gave us EVERYTHING we want upfront, there'd be no tension, no emotional impact.

No tension, no emotional impact?  I'd swear you just described ME2 to me.

I believe that giving us Liara as a squid in an expansion would cost the writers very little but they would gain a whole metric frαk ton.

Liara as a squid? 

as in short for Squadmate... naval slang for sailors aboard submarines.

Modifié par Jax Sparrow, 22 avril 2010 - 10:52 .