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[Debi-Tage]

Driveninhifi wrote...

She seems frustrated with the renegade response because she can't tell you exactly what happens. That makes sense - you risk your life to resurrect someone and the first thing they say is "man, you are crazy!" or "no time for your childish vendettas, gotta kill aliens!" Of course she'd be kind of angry and frustrated.

In the comics she basically says she's angry at herself for not being able to do anything as Shepard died. I don't think she's angry at Shepard directly - that doesn't make a lot of sense. Guilt and anger at herself is really the best explanation for her character that we have thus far. We'll have to see if the comics provide better ones, as those two alone aren't really enough.

I think they would be fine if Shepard were permanently dead, but him/her coming back to life (and the fact that Liara knows this) really weakens her motivation.

True. Not that Shepard can even muster a proper consolation for all of her heartache!
 "you did the right thing, my mission is important..."  grrr!

[JaylaClark]

Debi-Tage wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

She seems frustrated with the renegade response because she can't tell you exactly what happens. That makes sense - you risk your life to resurrect someone and the first thing they say is "man, you are crazy!" or "no time for your childish vendettas, gotta kill aliens!" Of course she'd be kind of angry and frustrated.

In the comics she basically says she's angry at herself for not being able to do anything as Shepard died. I don't think she's angry at Shepard directly - that doesn't make a lot of sense. Guilt and anger at herself is really the best explanation for her character that we have thus far. We'll have to see if the comics provide better ones, as those two alone aren't really enough.

I think they would be fine if Shepard were permanently dead, but him/her coming back to life (and the fact that Liara knows this) really weakens her motivation.

True. Not that Shepard can even muster a proper consolation for all of her heartache!
 "you did the right thing, my mission is important..."  grrr!

Yeah, this is ... I mean so many times in the game I almost feel like the dialogue wheel is taunting me with its missing options.  Notice how it's neutral/Renegade... Paragon is just sitting there, empty, as if to mock me on my lack of ability to console my sweetie.  (Which she clearly still is, even if I've been flirting with Kelly a bit, she's still sitting on my desk staring back at me.)

I almost want to make up dialogue ... as a matter of fact, I AM gonna fic it, what remains to be seen is if I have the nerve to put it up on ff.net afterwards.  That's really my only ish to date, but it's kind of sticking in my proverbial craw now that I think of it.  (The lack of e-mail afterwards I just see as proof that they're planning the rumored DLC as something that can slot in between Illium and Omega 4, kind of like the DLC from ME1, though I may be showing my eternal optimism there.)

As for the motivation ... Feron is a partial-credit answer at best, unless something beyond horrible happened to him in issues 3 or 4.  The guilt... over 'screwing it up'?  They can work with that, but it's got to be expanded on.  It has to be a severe screwup for one thing, and there really has to be another dimension to it somehow.  Darned if I know what, though.

[maikanix]

JaylaClark wrote...

Debi-Tage wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

She seems frustrated with the renegade response because she can't tell you exactly what happens. That makes sense - you risk your life to resurrect someone and the first thing they say is "man, you are crazy!" or "no time for your childish vendettas, gotta kill aliens!" Of course she'd be kind of angry and frustrated.

In the comics she basically says she's angry at herself for not being able to do anything as Shepard died. I don't think she's angry at Shepard directly - that doesn't make a lot of sense. Guilt and anger at herself is really the best explanation for her character that we have thus far. We'll have to see if the comics provide better ones, as those two alone aren't really enough.

I think they would be fine if Shepard were permanently dead, but him/her coming back to life (and the fact that Liara knows this) really weakens her motivation.

True. Not that Shepard can even muster a proper consolation for all of her heartache!
 "you did the right thing, my mission is important..."  grrr!

Yeah, this is ... I mean so many times in the game I almost feel like the dialogue wheel is taunting me with its missing options.  Notice how it's neutral/Renegade... Paragon is just sitting there, empty, as if to mock me on my lack of ability to console my sweetie.  (Which she clearly still is, even if I've been flirting with Kelly a bit, she's still sitting on my desk staring back at me.)

I know. The options in that one moment were a joke. No paragon interrupt. No consoling words. Just neutral, or renegade. Seriously though. That's a great place for an interrupt. Stop her in mid sentence, saying you care about her, and it doesn't matter what's happened. :\\ I dunno. It might be explained away as she couldn't admit to a relationship when they release the DLC. Still. No good.

And shame on you for flirting with Kelly. She has an STD you know. 

[Nozybidaj]

maikanix wrote...

And shame on you for flirting with Kelly. She has an STD you know. 

And not just any old STD, a varen STD.   Yeah.....

[Driveninhifi]

Yeah, the main problem with the entire sequence is that Shepard's reactions aren't at all realistic for someone that's in love with Liara.

It's been a couple weeks for Shepard, so it's not like he/she is over her. I totally understand Liara being guarded at the beginning of the conversation since she's afraid of how Shepard will react. There's absolutely no reason Shepard shouldn't bring up the relationship once she does open up though.



Seriously: your lover just told you they stole your body from one of the most dangerous people in the galaxy to resurrect you because they couldn't let you go. Then they say they've been tormented by guilt over doing it for the last two years. It's totally unrealistic to not give the player a response that's way more personal and loving than: "Gotta do this mission, bye" or "You're right, you ARE selfish." That's not how someone would ACTUALLY respond in that situation, it's not natural or believable at all.



I also find it very hard to believe she wouldn't ask Shepard to come back alive. Even Ash/Kaiden say that in their email, and Liara went through WAY more than either of them to bring Shepard back.

[Driveninhifi]

General Stubbs wrote...
I guess we will get to see how good of a writer Mac is in the next two comics. I hope he pulls it together to create a beautiful coherent masterpiece that makes perfect sense and fits with the perfect Liara DLC. (Is he really that good? I hope so, for Liara's sake and our sake's as well).

As far as I know, he didn't actually write the comics. He wrote the story outline, but the actual comics were written by John Jackson Miller. Which probably goes a ways to explain why Liara consistently jumps in and out of character. It's quite jarring, one moment she's wondering why human arias would be on Omega and the next she's murdering batarians in cold blood.

It is kind of sad how the first thing any review of the comics mentions is how she acts nothing like her character in ME1. That would really worry me, were I the one that wrote it. Miranda is also way more "I HATE ALIENS" in the comic than she is in ME2.

But seriously, it's not hard to come up with a situation that could lead her into developing the way she's presented in ME2 - the problem is that the game doesn't actually give the player a plausible explanation.

[JaylaClark]

Nozybidaj wrote...

maikanix wrote...

And shame on you for flirting with Kelly. She has an STD you know. 

And not just any old STD, a varen STD.   Yeah.....

Hey, can I help it if I'm naturally flirty?  

[vigna]

While not stealing directly from the source material something like this would have worked.....just maybe reversed.

www.youtube.com/watch

Ifyaknowhatimean....

[Corti78]

Driveninhifi wrote...

General Stubbs wrote...
I guess we will get to see how good of a writer Mac is in the next two comics. I hope he pulls it together to create a beautiful coherent masterpiece that makes perfect sense and fits with the perfect Liara DLC. (Is he really that good? I hope so, for Liara's sake and our sake's as well).

As far as I know, he didn't actually write the comics. He wrote the story outline, but the actual comics were written by John Jackson Miller. Which probably goes a ways to explain why Liara consistently jumps in and out of character. It's quite jarring, one moment she's wondering why human arias would be on Omega and the next she's murdering batarians in cold blood.

It is kind of sad how the first thing any review of the comics mentions is how she acts nothing like her character in ME1. That would really worry me, were I the one that wrote it. Miranda is also way more "I HATE ALIENS" in the comic than she is in ME2.

But seriously, it's not hard to come up with a situation that could lead her into developing the way she's presented in ME2 - the problem is that the game doesn't actually give the player a plausible explanation.

Indeed. Mac just wrote the story outline then handed it over to Miller to work it into a comic book script which can definitely explain Liara's odd behavior at times.

I'm actually curious of how good a writer Mac is since there are so many things up in the air right now from cuts, to story revisions, to possible DLC. Its hard to say right now if the Liara scene we got is what he actually wrote and meant to happen or if there were other factors that affected it and degraded it into what it is.

I'm on the fence right now about Mac's writing until we see where this all leads.

Modifié par Corti78, 02 mars 2010 - 03:38 .

[WilliamShatner]

maikanix wrote...

JaylaClark wrote...

Debi-Tage wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

She seems frustrated with the renegade response because she can't tell you exactly what happens. That makes sense - you risk your life to resurrect someone and the first thing they say is "man, you are crazy!" or "no time for your childish vendettas, gotta kill aliens!" Of course she'd be kind of angry and frustrated.

In the comics she basically says she's angry at herself for not being able to do anything as Shepard died. I don't think she's angry at Shepard directly - that doesn't make a lot of sense. Guilt and anger at herself is really the best explanation for her character that we have thus far. We'll have to see if the comics provide better ones, as those two alone aren't really enough.

I think they would be fine if Shepard were permanently dead, but him/her coming back to life (and the fact that Liara knows this) really weakens her motivation.

True. Not that Shepard can even muster a proper consolation for all of her heartache!
 "you did the right thing, my mission is important..."  grrr!

Yeah, this is ... I mean so many times in the game I almost feel like the dialogue wheel is taunting me with its missing options.  Notice how it's neutral/Renegade... Paragon is just sitting there, empty, as if to mock me on my lack of ability to console my sweetie.  (Which she clearly still is, even if I've been flirting with Kelly a bit, she's still sitting on my desk staring back at me.)

I know. The options in that one moment were a joke. No paragon interrupt. No consoling words. Just neutral, or renegade. Seriously though. That's a great place for an interrupt. Stop her in mid sentence, saying you care about her, and it doesn't matter what's happened. :\\\\ I dunno. It might be explained away as she couldn't admit to a relationship when they release the DLC. Still. No good.

And shame on you for flirting with Kelly. She has an STD you know. 

But she's the only fun in another wise depressing game.

[Nozybidaj]

vigna wrote...

While not stealing directly from the source material something like this would have worked.....just maybe reversed.

www.youtube.com/watch

Ifyaknowhatimean....

Haha, agreed.  That would have at least let Shepard say something, though even Lucas knew better than for that to be the only moment you see them together in the entire sequel. 

Yes, I am saying that the man that invented Jar Jar Binks knows more about doing a sequel than the company that claims to be the "best in this business" at story telling.

[WilliamShatner]

Nozybidaj wrote...

vigna wrote...

While not stealing directly from the source material something like this would have worked.....just maybe reversed.

www.youtube.com/watch

Ifyaknowhatimean....

Haha, agreed.  That would have at least let Shepard say something, though even Lucas knew better than for that to be the only moment you see them together in the entire sequel. 

Yes, I am saying that the man that invented Jar Jar Binks knows more about doing a sequel than the company that claims to be the "best in this business" at story telling.

Harrison Ford came up with that line.  I think there was originally a big scene of romantic dialog between the two, but Ford knew it didn't fit the character.

[Driveninhifi]

Considering Wrex and Garrus were by far the most interesting characters in ME1, I'd say it's safe to assume the dude can write a compelling character.

However, I think it's much more difficult to take an existing character and do him/her justice if you make a big change.

From reading comments from the writers I think they understand what people like about Liara - Patrick Weekes had comments that made me think so.



I just think they got too caught up in wanting the ME1 relationships to be rocky at the expense of it being believable. The only reason the relationship with Liara has any uncertainty is because the player isn't given the option to ask her flat out how she feels. And it wouldn't make sense for her to say "well, I don't care about you" after she tells him/her she's been afraid Shepard would hate her. Certainly it's not realistic for the relationship to immediately be back where it was at the end of ME1, but there's really no conflict in their relationship in ME2.



As for Ash/Kaidan, I felt their initial reactions to Shepard were very natural. (Shepard has been dead and they've come to terms with it, then he/she suddenly is alive again!) However, their reasons for not joining the Normandy were very obviously contrived solely to keep them out of the game. It was way too obvious that the only reason they weren't coming was because the writers deemed it so: they have better reasons to join than half the squad!

[Nozybidaj]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

vigna wrote...

While not stealing directly from the source material something like this would have worked.....just maybe reversed.

www.youtube.com/watch

Ifyaknowhatimean....

Haha, agreed.  That would have at least let Shepard say something, though even Lucas knew better than for that to be the only moment you see them together in the entire sequel. 

Yes, I am saying that the man that invented Jar Jar Binks knows more about doing a sequel than the company that claims to be the "best in this business" at story telling.

Harrison Ford came up with that line.  I think there was originally a big scene of romantic dialog between the two, but Ford knew it didn't fit the character.

Yeah he was written to say "Me too" or something like that and they kept reshooting it till he ab libbed that.

[WilliamShatner]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Considering Wrex and Garrus were by far the most interesting characters in ME1, I'd say it's safe to assume the dude can write a compelling character.

It's safe to assume that he can write male renegade soldiers.  Can he write a nerdish, paragon asari scientist?

Did he write Garrus in ME2 as well?  Because I don't think Garrus got anywhere near as good as treatment as Tali. He just seemed to reset to ME1 Garrus with no developement.

And Liara, Tali and Shepard were by far the most interesting characters in ME1.

[Driveninhifi]

What? Liara and Tali are basically walking codex entries in ME1. Liara is the nerdy girl with the crush on Shepard and Tali is the nerdy younger sister or cousin. In ME2, they make Tali into the nerdy girl with the crush on Shepard since Liara isn't a squadmember. Neither is really that interesting - they have no motivation other than "Isn't Shepard awesome?"



I actually am glad they tried to do something with Liara in ME2, but they didn't pull it off. She's the character that's the least suited for the role they're having her play - which would be very compelling if done well. Unfortunately they totally did nothing with the potential and didn't develop her fully enough for it to make any sense. Really, she's by far the least savvy character in ME1 and it's really hard for me to believe she'd be able to handle and thrive in the business end of the world of intrigue. It's too much of a jump without showing how she did it.

[Corti78]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Considering Wrex and Garrus were by far the most interesting characters in ME1, I'd say it's safe to assume the dude can write a compelling character.
However, I think it's much more difficult to take an existing character and do him/her justice if you make a big change.
From reading comments from the writers I think they understand what people like about Liara - Patrick Weekes had comments that made me think so.

There's no denying Garrus and Wrex were interesting in ME1. And I thought both were handeled well in ME2 though Garrus needed some more dialogue.

Its kind of jarring to look at Liara's cameo then at Wrex's. Wrex's cameo I was actually very satisfied with as he seemed sincerely happy to see Shepard again and had a actual legitimate reason for not being able to help. Also all his dialogue options covered everything you needed to know about what happened with him in the past 2 years.

As I said, I'm just wondering if Mac wrote Liara's scene like that or if factors out of his control gave us that weird scene. Surely they realized there were much better ways to portray a troubled relationship than what we got.

Modifié par Corti78, 02 mars 2010 - 04:08 .

[bjdbwea]

Garrus' acquisition quest was quite good, as was the loyalty quest. The rest? Seems as if he has even less dialogue than in ME 1.

I still think the main problem with ME 2 were time constraints. That either forced the writers to write all that ridiculous stuff (Liara is only one example), or they actually had better ideas but were forced to scrap and improvise as the release date came closer. I will give them the benefit of doubt and refrain from the conclusion that they're simply bad writers, as there are also examples of really good writing in the game. Not that any explanation would excuse the result.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 02 mars 2010 - 04:14 .

[WilliamShatner]

Driveninhifi wrote...

What? Liara and Tali are basically walking codex entries in ME1. Liara is the nerdy girl with the crush on Shepard and Tali is the nerdy younger sister or cousin. In ME2, they make Tali into the nerdy girl with the crush on Shepard since Liara isn't a squadmember. Neither is really that interesting - they have no motivation other than "Isn't Shepard awesome?"

I actually am glad they tried to do something with Liara in ME2, but they didn't pull it off. She's the character that's the least suited for the role they're having her play - which would be very compelling if done well. Unfortunately they totally did nothing with the potential and didn't develop her fully enough for it to make any sense. Really, she's by far the least savvy character in ME1 and it's really hard for me to believe she'd be able to handle and thrive in the business end of the world of intrigue. It's too much of a jump without showing how she did it.

To you maybe, not to me.

You can say the same thing about Wrex, he is a walking codex entry for krogan, and the only reason he's with Shepard is because he likes to fight.

I greatly enjoyed learning about quarian and asari cultures from Tali and Liara, mostly because of their enthusiam.  Their design, the way they talk, their ticks all help create the characters. 

Either way I greatly enjoyed all my ME1 squadmates (more than I can say for ME2),  the aliens in particular struck a great balance between introducing us to their species as well as having their own distinct personalities, but Liara and Tali were my favourites.