50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Asheer_Khan]

Ash tougth:
"And Miss Prothean expert again stares on skipper instead of fousing how to safely get away from this building"

[IndigoWolfe]

Liara hugs anyone?




Too bad I can't also get the soundbite of her saying "Shepard" during this exchange. That was nice too.

[Unata]

[Unata]

Geezz I leave for a bit and you all go nuts posting....WEEEEEeee

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Dink, alot of what you're saying is based on the fact that Liara never references the suicide mission at all, she never says something similar to what Ash and Kaidan say, "Be careful out there."

I choose to interpret that as just plain old bad writing and scripting, to have Liara who obviously still cares deeply about Shepard, about her welfare and wellbeing, and then doesn't mention Shepard's mission at all, is just a plain old poor oversight on the writers and scripter's part. It's almost as bad as the inability to properly comfort Liara when she opens up. Just bad writing, and symbolic of a completely hacked together reunion scene.

Which in turn reflects badly on the character, which relies upon the writing, and must be rectified.

Id much sooner have a "Im sorry, I was scared of losing you agian and pushed you away" rather than "I had to show loyalty to Feron, and finish this business with the Shadow Broker before I could return to you" because as I already said, shes turnin away from Shepard potentially forever if the sucide mission didnt work out.

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
As for Liara caring more about hunting down the SB, it's not as simple as that. There are alot of things to take into consideration. Also, not going with Shepard =/= she doesn't care or views the Shadow Broker as being more important. Hell, couldn't it be argued that she's remaining behind so that Shepard has got someone to return to? You need to empathise with what Liara has been through, and how at the root of all of her suffering is her love for Shepard, and that's what it ultimately is. A tormented, pained and sorrowful Liara trying desperately to ease herself of her own pain is a sympathetic Liara, and one that I understand completely. She expresses desire and a wish that she could go with Shepard, she regrets that she can't do so. Isn't that remorse enough for you? Myself, personally, I'd tell Liara not to feel sorry for that, because I understand and empathise with her completely.

Go play an ME2 playthrough and have Shepard die. Then imagine where Liara sits now.

This is my interpretation of events, so please dont force your "Liara is right and fine no matter what" on me. I have actually given thought to what Liara is left with after the cameo should Shepard not succeed.

She herself admits that she NEEDs to find the Shadow Broker for what hes "done to Shepard" (already stupid given her acceptance of ignoring the fact that the collectors killed Shepard) and for what he did to Feron. Basically Bioware clearly just wanted her to be "too busy" for Shepard. I want that acknowledged in future, and I dont want a reunion with Liara to ignore the fact that "okay, now you have time for me?"

Thats not going to happen though. It will probably just follow "unquestioning paragon" and "unthinking renegade". Paragon takes Liara back like nothing happened, and Rengegade probably snubs Liara for the insult of basically saving their life by giving them to cerberus.

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
Bottom line is, Liara not going with Shepard does not automatically equal that she doesn't care, or views the Shadow Broker as a greater priority. It's deeper than that. This is a deeply personal, emotional and heartrending journey for Liara, with her love for Shepard at the centre of it. Maybe Liara would view herself as a burden to Shepard if she went? It's alot deeper than it appears to be, and saying that Liara doesn't care is a crass simplification.

You keep stringing these sentences together with "deep", "heartwrenching" and "personal" with "love for Shepard" but none of that contains a concrete reason as to why all of that is overruled.

Listen, it is simple. Liara is presented with a choice: join up with Shepard to fight the collectors and the reapers, or continue her hunt for the shadow broker and feron. She has some fairly strong reasons for wanting to continue hunting for SB, but when one of the reasons for joining up with the one shes supposed to love is "hes died already and is embarking on a mission where he might die again", and she chooses in favour of SB, Id rather turn to "shes afraid and is running away" rather than "yeah well, she still loves Shepard and all that, but shes going after the SB out of love for Shepard".

There is a hint Liara knew right away that Shepard was alive in the line "I didnt come begging for favours, not even when....." and then she stops herself.

Id rather think right now that she hoped to avoid seeing Shepard again, out of fear that he would "hate her" yes, but also out of fear that she would lose him all over again. Shed rather reject his request for help and continue with her vendetta against the SB than join up with the one she supposedly loves.

Like I said, play a save where Shepard doesnt make it, and tell me where that leaves Liara. It leaves her with a vendetta supposedly for someone who is once again dead, only this time for good. Yes, joining up with Shepard very likely might not have changed anything in the big picture, but it certainly would leave no questions as to her love for Shepard being her prime motivator.

Liaras cameo in ME2 is motivated by fear, not love.

First its fear that Shepard will hate her, and thats why she withholds all of this information from someone she supposedly trusts.

Im just proposing another motivation for why she wont join is fear again, and its fear of losing Shepard all over again.

I think too much damage has been done by her absence to simply have her and Shepard run into eachothers arms like nothing is wrong. "The troubled second act" of the romance got that right at least, and screwed everything up (albeit with next to no effort or content).

I think there are some things Liara needs to answer for, and things that cant be dismissed with "I need to kil the Shadow Broker, but I still love you, and I wanted to join with you on your mission where you werent supposed to return and everything but.... yeah."

Sorry LET, Ive read into this as much as you have, and your views arent any more right than mine. As Ive said before, were debating over something not even worth it to begin with.

Whether in ME2 DLC or ME3, I would appreciate Liaras hunt for the SB that much more if, assuming Shepard helps her with it, it confronts this whole "so you chose to pursue this while I went off to a potentially imminent death?"

[JaylaClark]

@Dink ... I think you're taking this too hard.



Maybe LET too.



Calm down, okay? The both of you?

[screwoffreg]

Welp, sequel to my last story is up. I know how I want to end it, the ever present problem is how to get there.



http://www.fanfictio...hattered_Dreams



As always, enjoy

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

JaylaClark wrote...

@Dink ... I think you're taking this too hard.

Maybe LET too.

Calm down, okay? The both of you?

Nah, Im debating strongly, but LET should know its nothing personal.

Sorry, I never respond well to attempts to stifle intense debate simply because it is just that: intense. Ive already said its a difference of interpretation, and although we rarely agree when it comes to it, I still respect LETs right to form his own more positive interpretation.

I just think there needs to be a very complex resolution to this mess of an excuse based cameo we got in ME2.

I also think were unlikely to get it, and that makes me argue the point even harder.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 23 avril 2010 - 09:39 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...


And that's exactly what it boils down to. Paragon and Renegade, Idealism and Cynicism, Selflessness and Selfishness. Like you said Dink, there's little point in going over this and slinging mud back in each other's faces, as we're looking at two sides of the same coin. I choose to view Liara with sympathy and empathise with her, and curse the fact that we're prevented from truly helping her out and comforting her, to complete her "recruitment mission", so to speak. Why can't we properly tell Liara that she's not hated, to help ease her of her guilt and fear? Because her current character and story arc dictates so, and they've implemented that in an incredibly contrived way.

Arguing and throwing our opposing viewpoints at each other is going to solve nothing, so it looks like we're just going to have to leave it there. Agree that we hold different viewpoints and look at Liara in different ways, yeah?

No, its not paragon and renegade, its your rose tinted interpretation vs my own interpretation that actually allows for the fact that Liara isnt perfect, and she could easily have done wrong in choosing the SB and Feron over Shepard.

Unlike you, I see no reason why, in being so concerned with the apparant "wrong" of handing Shepard over to cerberus and fear of losing him again, she shouldnt actually commit a completely different "wrong" of turning away from him when he needed her.

I can appreciate you "accepting" that we have different viewpoints, just not under the guise of calling mine selfish. Im afraid if Im selfish, youre clearly in denial and completely unwilling to hold a critical view of Liara.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 23 avril 2010 - 09:45 .

[Asheer_Khan]

Guys, guys, guys... you forget that Lia's fate lays in hands of Mr "lead writer" Walters and in this particular case he is the god of the fate.

He might chose even to put in reality Lia in Feron's arms and we will be powerless because he have full control... so if you must hate someone then hate Mac...



Beside look at the whole picture of entire Liara part of the ME 2.

As long as i analize him i see how terribly butchered that part of the game is because there is NO LOGICAL consequences between both quests.



It's looks like Bioware stand before choice putting butchered Liara content to game or cut her from game entirely and later on adds as DLC or expansion.

So they chose to past incomplete plot to game in apparent hope to avoid general uprising of angry fans what might be in case of her full removal, but in the end they shoot itself in the feet because what they do only worsened whole situation...

Too bad that they don't have even spark of the civil courage to come here and say one simple sentence.

-We are sorry for disappointing you... - IS THIS REALLY TOO MUCH FOR YOU BIOWARE!!!!

[JaylaClark]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JaylaClark wrote...

@Dink ... I think you're taking this too hard.

Maybe LET too.

Calm down, okay? The both of you?

Nah, Im debating strongly, but LET should know its nothing personal.

Sorry, I never respond well to attempts to stifle intense debate simply because it is just that: intense. Ive already said its a difference of interpretation, and although we rarely agree when it comes to it, I still respect LETs to form his own more positive interpretation.

I just think there needs to be a very complex resolution to this mess of an excuse based cameo we got in ME2.

I also think were unlikely to get it, and that makes me argue the point even harder.

True... it's just that my personal eye keeps jumping to the personally-directed lines here and there, and it draws away from the point some.  (I'd already sent the message before I realized I agree with you a little more than les in this debate!)

Yeah, it makes best sense if Lia's more motivated by her fear.  Thing is, that damnedable set of scenes ... they're so lacking in quality that 'best sense' still barely makes any sense.  She's afraid to confront her feelings, so she lets Shepard go on a supposed suicide mission and potentially loses the chance to?  She's convinced that the Shadow Broker is a genuine, greater-than-Collector threat to the galaxy, but she doesn't say a hell of a lot to justify it?  She's lusting after Feron ... I don't even need to talk about how stupid THAT is, and anyone who thinks we do gets eyerolls and pictures of kittehs.  Every possible scenario needs more information!

I think that it smells like a hasty, shoddy rewrite that might have not even had all the VAs available for it, so they had to piece it together from previously recorded stuff.  Maybe that's why everyone gets 'because I couldn't let you go'?

/end_rant

[IndigoWolfe]

I'll say again; Liara hugs, anyone?




Anyone? Anybody? Nobody? Okay.

Modifié par IndigoWolfe, 23 avril 2010 - 09:50 .

[JaylaClark]

justinnstuff wrote...

IndigoWolfe wrote...

I'll say again; Liara hugs, anyone?

Thanks Indigo 

Double thanx

[screwoffreg]

Let not the Liara fans turn one against the other!

[JaylaClark]

screwoffreg wrote...

Let not the Liara fans turn one against the other!

AMEN, screw!

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

About your point regarding the suicide mission though, do you not think that Liara sits there in her office, with this constantly playing on her mind? The fact that she obsesses over Shepard for two years as well?

It's one of the reasons why I wish the picture scene could have briefly cut to Illium, and shown Liara stopping working, turning around, standing up and looking sadly at the sky over her balcony. It clarifys what is already almost certain, that Liara is aware of the suicide mission, aware that Shepard might not be back again, and that as well is hurting her deeply, that she feels she is not useful enough or that she is not capable enough at the moment to help out. Why they couldn't have added this simple detail to the picture scene is beyond me. It would make it seem like so much more, plus it adds extra emotions on Liara's part.

I have considered that yes, but the mere fact that it takes that fabrication of an event that we at this point have no proof of what happens proves just how dire the situation is.

This is the kind of thing Im talking about in case you hadnt noticed. Some acknowledgement on Liaras part that Shepard went on a so called "suicide mission", and she actually has feelings on that other than "Im sorry, Ive got to get the Shadow Broker for what he did to you and Feron".

I need an admission that shes hurting for leaving Shepard to face that mission without her.

Instead I get an admission that shes hurting for basically saving Shepards life. Yeah, handing Shepard over to cerberus wasnt that good, but it was the only option available to her (unless you count letting the collectors have it).

Going after the SB isnt the only option available to her. It has good reasons for it (her escape with her own life and Shepards body is partly down to Ferons sacrifice). Still, you cant get away from the fact that she chose to pursue the SB rather than take up Shepards request for her help. At best you can play it up as another "neither choice was a good one, as either one has her turning her back on someone she cares about: either her friend Feron or Shepard". That does not rule out the fact that it happened.

You however seem to be of this idea that I will automatically approach the situation selfishly, and berate Liara for her choice. Instead all I want is Liara to essentially open up, and let Shepard know how much it hurt her to have him walk off to a suicide mission and potentially lose him all over again.

I do NOT want it to be "dont worry Liara, you did everything right, and I completely understand".

Like I said, I have entertained the prospect of Shepard dying on that suicide mission, and where it leaves Liara certainly doesnt leave any room for the kind of "fulfillment" she is supposedly going to get from killing the Shadow Broker.

It leaves her whole ordeal of saving Shepards life a complete waste in terms of their relationship.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 23 avril 2010 - 09:58 .

[IndigoWolfe]

JaylaClark wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

Let not the Liara fans turn one against the other!

AMEN, screw!

I forsee complications in the future regarding the continuing use of that nickname.