50907 réponses à ce sujet

[JaylaClark]

*sighs*

Okay, do we tell Dink and les to take it to IMs or do we actually go and turn in two of our best friends for fighting it out on our thread?

[screwoffreg]

Eh, nothing wrong with a bit of conversation as long as its kept cordial.



Anyway, the last thing we need is the distinction of a mod telling us to calm down.

[OrbitalWings]

Here's another WIP of that pic. It may just look like the same thing without the lines, but this one is actually made up of the pieces and layers that will form the finished product, wheras the last version was just the line-art with paint-bucket colours added.



And yes, Freya looks bald - that's because I always do hair last due to the way I draw it.

And a large-ish screenshot for fun...

http://pics.livejour...yu/pic/0002a5f4

Modifié par Metal-Dragon-Kiryu, 23 avril 2010 - 10:01 .

[JaylaClark]

justinnstuff wrote...

This thread is a place to discuss all things Liara. They aren't rude to each other, so I don't know how much room we have in terms of telling them to take it to PM's.

Are you sure?  They're acting pretty defensive...

Alright, I'm going to go don a different alias and go complain about CJ Spiller being drafted on an entirely different thread (and message board).  Just make sure to get the pic for this page, les looks a bit preoccupied.

EDIT -- Thanks, MDK?  We kinda needed that

Modifié par JaylaClark, 23 avril 2010 - 10:01 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

JaylaClark wrote...

*sighs*

Okay, do we tell Dink and les to take it to IMs or do we actually go and turn in two of our best friends for fighting it out on our thread?

Please back off will you Jayla? In case you hadnt noticed, were perfectly on topic here discussing Liara.

Just because its in a tone that is more heated than usual doesnt give anyone the right to silence it.

[Asheer_Khan]

Liara is really not amused to see this whole fight..

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 23 avril 2010 - 10:03 .

[JaylaClark]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JaylaClark wrote...

*sighs*

Okay, do we tell Dink and les to take it to IMs or do we actually go and turn in two of our best friends for fighting it out on our thread?

Please back off will you Jayla? In case you hadnt noticed, were perfectly on topic here discussing Liara.

Just because its in a tone that is more heated than usual doesnt give anyone the right to silence it.

If there are personal attacks, not only can they, but they probably WILL regardless of on-topic-ness.  We got scary close to that when GuardianAngel470 dropped in a few weeks ago.

Please, just keep it clean and think about how you're wording things?

[WilliamShatner]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Anyone else find it heartbreakingly sad that Liara couldn't bring herself to look at Shepard when she finally admits that she was the one to turf the corpse over to Cerberus? Imagine all of Liara's guilt, the fact that it's been eating away at her for two years, along with fear that Shepard will hate her. Liara probably couldn't bear to bring herself to look at Shepard when she admits it, fearful of what Shepard's reaction to her would be.

Poor Liara. She's suffered so much.

I think it demonstrates a complete lack of trust on her part. I wanted Shepard to be somewhat disappointed in her. Something like "I thought you knew me better than that Liara..."

And yeah, Liara has suffered, but so has Shepard.

I was disappointed I couldnt have Shepard A) Extremely angry at himself for getting killed and basically failing in his oath to find a way to stop the reapers, and Extremely angry at everyone else for not giving a crap about the reapers and leaving him only to cerberus, who are strangely the only ones who do care. Also that his first task upon being revivied is "go take on a mission of supposed nigh impossible odds".

I was also pissed that she didnt once seem to care about what Shepard was heading for. Not a concern that she went to all that trouble to make sure there was a body to be revived, only for Shepard to be sent off to be potentially killed again.

I wouldnt actually mind a guilt ridden Liara saying "Im sorry I left you to fight the collectors alone, but I was frightened I was only going to lose you again, and wanted to distance myself from you".

Ive said it before, but I want Liara to be apologetic for putting her vendetta ahead of Shepard, possibly in ME3.

"I couldn't let you go... where are you going Shepard?  Suicide mission aye?  Well I'll just stay here and play with my pens." 

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 23 avril 2010 - 10:08 .

[HTTP 404]

Liara could be a squadmate in the ME2 expansion. emphasis on COULD.

[Unit-Alpha]

Wow, looking great (as usual) MDK; the pose is awesome! I'm really looking forward to this one!

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Isn't that exactly the point I made in the post you quoted? You've just rephrased to be more damning of myself, and reiterated it.

No, youre original post painted my view as "renegade". They simply dont apply here (though I have little doubt they will be the only two available in the in game resolution). This is two human reactions to a situation. You arent concerned by the fact that Liara pursued her vendetta against the Shadow Broker when Shepard clearly could have died fighting the Collectors. I am. I dont forget that what we are arguing over is a cameo designed for nothing more than to keep Liara out of ME2, but that doesnt mean I will cover my ears and pretend it didnt happen. If its the "troubled second act" of the romance, my resolution would need Liara acknowleding the choice she made, and what the consequences could have been.

So long as Shepard survives, she probably gets the best of both worlds: not only does she not lose Shepard, she probably even gets his help in taking down the SB. Of course if Shepard died on that mission, whats Liara left with then?

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
Plus, the game clarifies that Liara's motives are more than what you said. Shepard even calls her out on it. "That anger can't be just from what you told me. What else happened between you and the Shadow Broker?" and then Liara opens up completely, revealing everything, and that her love for Shepard is at the heart of it. So no, it's not as simple as choosing one over the other. It's more complex than that.

No, its not more than what Ive said, as that clarification from Liara is the basis of my argument. Liara took Shepards death so hard, and she just "couldnt let him go". Once revived, that no long applies, and Liara must "let Shepard go" in order to contiue trying to track down the SB.

There is an inconsistency there, and I think while wanting revenge on the SB and seeing if she can save Feron goes some way towards justifying it, its still not enough. Not with what is supposed to have originally caused this.

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
Again, I dont view that as a wrong, or that she's turning away. That's if you don't hold a sympathetic and understanding view of her, and what has happened to her. She's a strong person for doing that, IMO. A weaker person would have run away, tried to hide from it, pretend it isn't there. It all comes down to the fact that Liara has a recruitment mission that cannot be resolved. The fact that she shows remorse for not being able to come, and realistically because she trusts Shepard to come home alive, allows me to hold her in a completely sympathetic light.

You see there you go again. Im sympathetic and understaind to Liaras plight. Im simply asking that she be the same of Shepards plight, that she did or did not have to turn away from in order to try and track down the SB.

Youd like to dismiss that as a selfish renegade attitude, but unfortunately for you, its a perfectly legit one.

Also, fortunately for you, I personally doubt Bioware will take that view. Theyll probably either have the player welcome her back with no questions (your view), or snub her for handing you over to cerberus (basically saving Shepards life).

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
Maybe. I have been told that in the past, notably by Jayla, that I hold Liara on this pedestal, and that a view her in a perfectly idealistic light. I prefer to say that what I do view Liara as is backed up by my own analysis, interpretations and opinions, all backed up with evidence. I wouldn't just assume the best of Liara for no reason, as that's utter cobblers. No, I try to find reasons for my viewpoints.

And what a coincidence, Im the same way.

Do me a favour though - dont brand my views as "renegade and selfish" because Im willing to entertain the fact that Liara took a risk on never seeing Shepard again for good this time (one she certainly didnt make of her own accord, like I said, it was either join Shepard and turn her back on Feron, or try and save Feron and kill the SB and turn her back on Shepard).

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

JaylaClark wrote...

If there are personal attacks, not only can they, but they probably WILL regardless of on-topic-ness.  We got scary close to that when GuardianAngel470 dropped in a few weeks ago.

Please, just keep it clean and think about how you're wording things?

I post regularly with LET in a group. He knows I hold different view on the whole Liara situation to him, and vice versa. Im not going to start personally insulting him.

If this thread gets locked down because of our discussions, I think your bigger worry should be why the mods would want to deliberately look for such a weak excuse to lock the thread down in the first place.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 23 avril 2010 - 10:16 .

[Asheer_Khan]

This entire debate about Liara's cameo can lead to false assumption that she is independent in game AI entity able to made her own choices... what is ridiculous, and in in short she must "dance" how writers told her to dance... no more no less.



I am pretty sure if she would have own will she will eagerly drop this whole SB hunt and follow Shepard to the very end of C-Base mission.

Her situation is exactly similar to Shepard's situation because despite all our wishes we (at least some of us) can's show TiM middle finger and answer to his" offer" - Kiss my Cain - and leave.

As much Liara IS shackled by writers to her SB hunt, on this same level Shepard is shackled to Cerberus if she want or not.



That's why every debates why she behave like she behave have similar outcome to debating how big harvest we get from planting orange trees on the north pole.



Sheeesh... i am start to ranting here ^^...

[WilliamShatner]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

About your point regarding the suicide mission though, do you not think that Liara sits there in her office, with this constantly playing on her mind? The fact that she obsesses over Shepard for two years as well?

It's one of the reasons why I wish the picture scene could have briefly cut to Illium, and shown Liara stopping working, turning around, standing up and looking sadly at the sky over her balcony. It clarifys what is already almost certain, that Liara is aware of the suicide mission, aware that Shepard might not be back again, and that as well is hurting her deeply, that she feels she is not useful enough or that she is not capable enough at the moment to help out. Why they couldn't have added this simple detail to the picture scene is beyond me. It would make it seem like so much more, plus it adds extra emotions on Liara's part.

I have considered that yes, but the mere fact that it takes that fabrication of an event that we at this point have no proof of what happens proves just how dire the situation is.

This is the kind of thing Im talking about in case you hadnt noticed. Some acknowledgement on Liaras part that Shepard went on a so called "suicide mission", and she actually has feelings on that other than "Im sorry, Ive got to get the Shadow Broker for what he did to you and Feron".

I need an admission that shes hurting for leaving Shepard to face that mission without her.

Instead I get an admission that shes hurting for basically saving Shepards life. Yeah, handing Shepard over to cerberus wasnt that good, but it was the only option available to her (unless you count letting the collectors have it).

Going after the SB isnt the only option available to her. It has good reasons for it (her escape with her own life and Shepards body is partly down to Ferons sacrifice). Still, you cant get away from the fact that she chose to pursue the SB rather than take up Shepards request for her help. At best you can play it up as another "neither choice was a good one, as either one has her turning her back on someone she cares about: either her friend Feron or Shepard". That does not rule out the fact that it happened.

You however seem to be of this idea that I will automatically approach the situation selfishly, and berate Liara for her choice. Instead all I want is Liara to essentially open up, and let Shepard know how much it hurt her to have him walk off to a suicide mission and potentially lose him all over again.

I do NOT want it to be "dont worry Liara, you did everything right, and I completely understand".

Like I said, I have entertained the prospect of Shepard dying on that suicide mission, and where it leaves Liara certainly doesnt leave any room for the kind of "fulfillment" she is supposedly going to get from killing the Shadow Broker.

It leaves her whole ordeal of saving Shepards life a complete waste in terms of their relationship.

Indeed, a line like that would smack of the writers saying, "Yeah what we did with Liara was totally right! and makes sense, and now we're going to make you admit that in the game!"

[Asheer_Khan]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JaylaClark wrote...

If there are personal attacks, not only can they, but they probably WILL regardless of on-topic-ness.  We got scary close to that when GuardianAngel470 dropped in a few weeks ago.

Please, just keep it clean and think about how you're wording things?

I post regularly with LET in a group. He knows I hold different view on the whole Liara situation to him, and vice versa. Im not going to start personally insulting him.

If this thread gets locked down because of our discussions, I think your bigger worry should be why the mods would want to deliberately look for such a weak excuse to lock the thread down in the first place.

Forum mods are very mysterious entitys and hard to guess thier intentions are:police:.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

I don't know about you, Dink, but is it entirely possible that Liara views Shepard as completely capable of coming home alive, that everything will be alright? Hell, it was possible to leave her on the Normandy in ME1, and set food in a burning Citadel in the midst of a geth invasion. Nobody bats an eyelid at that, isn't Liara abandoning Shepard there too? This whole "suicide mission" terminology is a load of old cobblers though. By definition, any important mission, and this goes for RL too, could be a "suicide mission" as there's always a chance it will result in death. I think Liara trusts Shepard enough to know that she's coming back alive. This whole "suicide mission" concept has been spinned for the purposes of publicity, and marketing.

From a gameplay standpoint, I agree: "suicide mission" it aint. However, I cant deny that inside the game, characters go to great lengths to try and justify that "marketing cobblers" by reminding Shepard how this is potentially a one way trip. Shepard himself will state this fact on plenty of occasions.

Ive said it once already, but I would be quite happy with the idea that Liara likewise knows this is a potential one way trip, and is frightened. Not of dying - shes put herself in harms way too many times for that. I think shes frightened that Shepard is again going to be lost, and to the very same entity that took him from her originally no less.

Do I think thats what Bioware think? Not a chance.

I think they dont even think of it from a romance angle, and I KNOW that by looking at the cameo. The most they did of making the cameo able to reference the "romance" is add a little "ambiguity" here and there.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 23 avril 2010 - 10:34 .

[Mariquis]

Just dropping in from the Garrus thread to show my support for Liara   I'm excited to see what roles she and the other ME1 LIs play in ME3 

I actually think the debate going on in here right now is pretty interesting.  I think I ultimately agree with Dinkamus' sentiment.  No matter how you frame it either Shepard or Liara could be considered selfish in the matter.  Shepard for showing up and expecting her to drop everything.  Or Liara for declining her old commander (or lover) to pursue the fate of a friend.  

I didn't think the selfishness really reflected that badly upon either though, though that's up for interpretation.  Shepard really just asks, and accepts Liara's refusal, no anger about it.  And I honestly interpreted Liara's reaction as  "Shepard is alive and well right now , Feron may not be. Feron needs my help more."  And hey, Liara knows that Shepard can certainly take care of her/himself, she has faith in Shepard's abilities.  Heck, even Garrus says it "they killed you once and it only pissed you off," haha. The old crew trusts Shepard.