I just think we should have learned our lesson by now about trying to analyze what the writers meant.
Before Redemption ended we had theories ranging from Cerberus is blackmailing her to helping her, to the SB is a reaper and Liara is hunting him down, and how in the end it all had boil down to her driving motivation being her love for Shep and that somehow in the end everything she has done/is doing is all about helping Shep in unseen ways, and hell I don't even remember all of em.
Point is we came up with all these (really good) theories on what the possible big reveal would be and how all of Liara's motivations would be explained and what did we get?
"its all about Feron lolz!!!!111!!!one!!!" <_<
I mean really, in the end BW went with the quickest, cheapest, and least plausible solution they could come up with. If that didn't show a complete lack of care about making the entire story make sense I don't know what will.
I understand wanting to have hope that the expac and ME3 are going to somehow all make up for this, but everyone here should prepare themselves for the fact that we have seen nothing to indicate BW has any will or intention to do that.
Support Liara T'Soni for ME3 - Squadmate and LI
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Nozybidaj
, févr. 18 2010 08:42
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#20652
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 06:13
Nozybidaj
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My turn to do Liara pic for this page!!
#20653
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 06:17
Sunnie
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This is old news. Those files are what the Liara side quests were going to be, they got changed to what is in game currently.EA_BiowareAccount wrote...
Shavon wrote...
EA_BiowareAccount wrote...
Liara could be a squadmate in the ME2 expansion. emphasis on COULD.
That would be awesome!
there are hidden sound files in the game that suggest mission(s) against the shadow broker. there is a sound bit of Liara confronting the shadow broker.
#20654
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 06:22
JaylaClark
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NYTimes
For serious, we chased away a 'troll' for 'lying' about the TRUTH.
Vincent Canby wrote, a while ago...
Confession: When I went to see "The Empire Strikes Back" I found myself
glancing at my watch almost as often as I did when I was sitting through
a truly terrible movie called "The Island."
For serious, we chased away a 'troll' for 'lying' about the TRUTH.
#20655
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 06:23
Goodwood
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In regards to the "second bit is the toughest" argument when writing trilogies, we need to remember that this wasn't just an "excuse" brought on by ME2 turning out to be a poor sequel (something which I find to be debatable, but that's for another thread). It was a big topic on the old boards, brought up almost as soon as we got official word that there would even be a sequel. ME2/TESB comparisons were being made months before ME2 came out, both by skeptics and supporters, with valid points on both sides. IMHO, ME2 is more along the lines of The Matrix Reloaded than The Empire Strikes Back, except it doesn't suck as much. </snarky comment>
While I have more faith in BioWare than the Wackowski brothers, I'm not about to give them a free pass for the lackluster bits that they allowed to slip into ME2. Instead, I'll just take whatever enjoyment out of it there is to be had, both in the game itself and any DLCs and/or expansion packs, and wait patiently for the last game in the trilogy to wrap it up. There's really no point in roasting the chick before it's even hatched, so why bash future installments of the Mass Effect series before they've even been developed?
While I have more faith in BioWare than the Wackowski brothers, I'm not about to give them a free pass for the lackluster bits that they allowed to slip into ME2. Instead, I'll just take whatever enjoyment out of it there is to be had, both in the game itself and any DLCs and/or expansion packs, and wait patiently for the last game in the trilogy to wrap it up. There's really no point in roasting the chick before it's even hatched, so why bash future installments of the Mass Effect series before they've even been developed?
#20656
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 06:25
JaylaClark
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kraidy1117 wrote...
Nozybidaj wrote...
Swear I am going to have to start putting up signs in this thread.
/snip
Troll meaning: The intent on getting a rise out of someone.
I am in fact trying to get you guys to open your eyes, thats not trolling. You guys are just being too stupid to even accept.
I went and posted the direct link to the NY Times review by Vincent Canby already, and I agree with you on one point, Empire was thought to suck by at least one, possibly two people.
I hereby declare you not a troll and hope it sticks.
#20657
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 06:26
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
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Nozybidaj wrote...
Before Redemption ended we had theories ranging from Cerberus is blackmailing her to helping her, to the SB is a reaper and Liara is hunting him down, and how in the end it all had boil down to her driving motivation being her love for Shep and that somehow in the end everything she has done/is doing is all about helping Shep in unseen ways, and hell I don't even remember all of em.
Point is we came up with all these (really good) theories on what the possible big reveal would be and how all of Liara's motivations would be explained and what did we get?
"its all about Feron lolz!!!!111!!!one!!!" <_<
The thing is though, that is what irked me regarding the ending of #4. The fact that not only did it not reveal or tell us anything new regarding Liara's motives, but it actually did not disclose and showcase what's displayed and stated in ME2. That her chief motive for taking down the SB is her guilt and fear over what happened with Shepard, ie based around her love for Shep.
If we look at what's displayed in ME2, Shepard even calls Liara out on it, and says "Come on, this can't be all because of this friend, right?"
That anger can't be just from what you've told me. What else happened between you and the Shadow Broker?
And then Liara's floodgates open, finally spilling her heart over what happened with Shepard, what she had to do, how she's suffered with the guilt and sorrow for what happened to Shepard for two years. It's only then do we realise the extent of her motivations, and at least gain a little insight into her thought processes.
Did Redemption #4 show what a deeply traumatic and guilt-inducing event and decision it was for Liara to hand the corpse over to Cerberus? No, we got one clumsy line that tries to showcase the start of her guilt for handing the corpse over, but a line that's so vague and cryptic when taken out of it's context that it's incredibly easy to misconstrue, and think that it directly contradicts what is told in ME2, unless you analyse and realise what Liara truly means. As for the fact that Liara doesn't state her full motives at the end of Redemption, don't get me started. I hate it. Despise it, even. How easy is it to misunderstand and make wild assertions about her character after reading that, in which alot of questions it creates are allayed in ME2 with what Liara says?
I shouldn't get so worked up like this, but Redemption really did get on my nerves. Was it damaging to Liara's character? Only if you take what is said in the comic literally, and ignore what is displayed in ME2, can people misconstrue Liara's character. That's what annoys me so much.
#20658
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 06:40
Sunnie
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No Les, you really shouldn't. I still stand by what Liara says in game, since that is post comic. The comic was an epic fail, even more so then the fail that is the Liara meeting. As far as I am concerned the comic never happened, because all it did was, well, nothing. Oh wait, we learn Feron's name. It was also an epic fail in with the friendly interaction with Miranda in the end of the comic to the "who the eff are you I don't know you" Miranda in game. I stay positive I suppose but I am not going to hold my breath for something that is still not even mentioned by BioWare. I believe we won't see any further development until the expansion, which BW did mention.
#20659
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 06:47
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Yeah, I know Sunnie. I need to calm down and wind my neck in a little bit, heh. What Liara does say in Redemption can be very easily worked into what she says in ME2, but it's so cryptic and vague that people are going to misconstrue Liara and what she says at the end of #4. That's what's so irritating to me. The fact that people will now misunderstand Liara's character even further.
Still, we're going to hopefully see some more MDK Liara artwork today. That's awesome!!
Still, we're going to hopefully see some more MDK Liara artwork today. That's awesome!!
#20661
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 06:49
Sunnie
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I went and straightened up my cabin! =D
#20662
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 06:50
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Sunnie22 wrote...
Brilliant, sad and heartwarming, and it really should have been included in-game. Along with this certain dialogue option when Liara opens up:
#20664
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 06:51
JaylaClark
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@les...
You do get a bit too worked up over it, though I think that's what we like about you
. But the problem with the comic is that, in my personal opinion, people are coming into it too negatively and interpreting it from that way. (Now you, on the other hand, come in at maximum positiveness, and may need to accept that that's also not the truth, but in this case I'm going mostly with your interpretations.)
The comic is independently graded as mediocre according to IGN's site -- 6.2 of 10 -- with the lack of clarity being a large factor in that score, as I recall. But I will give Mac one point, without him even needing to ask for it -- it's pretty damn difficult to do a comic that would satisfy the players of every single possible relevant combination that is Shepard. (I think he failed, but came a bit closer than I really would have expected.)
This is not just for the Shepard of les, sc, WingedMoggy, MDK and me, it's for the Shepard of all the utter ****s who will tell Lorik Qui'in "You obviously hate justice", possibly just for the lolz. (As a matter of fact WingedMoggy's a renegade Shep too, so maybe she did it. I was basically saying 'good and kind in general' Sheps there.) Sometimes Shepard is someone that is damn hard to believe anyone likes her, let alone loves her. Sometimes Shepard is a complete and total ****, even the maleSheps, to Lia. Sometimes Shepard will tell Lia that she needs another go-round in the ... wait, people have told me that's actually not Renegade and is actually cute. But you know what I mean. (Though I think my Shepards were a bit tired out anyway, though it was, to borrow a phrase, 'totally worth it'.)
So how do you write a story about a Shepard that ... saved the Citadel and Liara, destroyed Virmire, and that's about all that's locked down? In retrospect, we might have been foolish to expect anything concrete to come from that. And I think that they might have written the lines in the comic so that you really can choose to make the interpretation you want to.
So this would be the conflict ... people like Nozy and sc (and apparently dink) go into the comic expecting the worst and not finding anything that contradicts their position. Les and Stubbs and admittedly, probably myself , go into the comic expecting the best and not finding anything that contradicts that. Though some on the positive side are annoyed that they don't find clear evidence to prove their side. And thus the two sides clash hardcore over what it means, when it probably CAN'T mean anything serious, or so the 'must fit all Shepards' dictum would seem to indicate.
In reality, though, I think I WOULD have geared the comic to those friendlier to Liara in their playthroughs, and taken the backlash from the Liara-haters, because let's face it... if they hate Liara, there aren't going to be too many that buy it, right? But that's fluff, because I'd hope I wouldn't do the damn comic in the first place. This belonged in exposition in the game, they should've finished it off, and used a decent blow-off to why Liara couldn't be on the ship. (Non-Liaramancers -- "I have to see exactly what SB was doing, I'm certain it indicates involvement by the Reapers' ... with us Liaramancers getting that PLUS "Really, Shepard... if I'm here, you know you have something to come back to, and I'll know that you'll come back to me." Or something incredibly sappy, the sappier the BETTER, and we'd have felt
:kissing:
:wub: and not even been too troubled with the Gameplay and Story Segregation issue. At least I wouldn't have. Your Mileage May Vary.)
EDIT -- I was GOING to change the word after 'complete and total', to be clear... but from context you can guess it's a female dog (as opposed to Damien, my Warden's male dog).
FURTHER EDIT -- they really cut down the letters after 'utter'. But I actually like what it implies better.
You do get a bit too worked up over it, though I think that's what we like about you
. But the problem with the comic is that, in my personal opinion, people are coming into it too negatively and interpreting it from that way. (Now you, on the other hand, come in at maximum positiveness, and may need to accept that that's also not the truth, but in this case I'm going mostly with your interpretations.)The comic is independently graded as mediocre according to IGN's site -- 6.2 of 10 -- with the lack of clarity being a large factor in that score, as I recall. But I will give Mac one point, without him even needing to ask for it -- it's pretty damn difficult to do a comic that would satisfy the players of every single possible relevant combination that is Shepard. (I think he failed, but came a bit closer than I really would have expected.)
This is not just for the Shepard of les, sc, WingedMoggy, MDK and me, it's for the Shepard of all the utter ****s who will tell Lorik Qui'in "You obviously hate justice", possibly just for the lolz. (As a matter of fact WingedMoggy's a renegade Shep too, so maybe she did it. I was basically saying 'good and kind in general' Sheps there.) Sometimes Shepard is someone that is damn hard to believe anyone likes her, let alone loves her. Sometimes Shepard is a complete and total ****, even the maleSheps, to Lia. Sometimes Shepard will tell Lia that she needs another go-round in the ... wait, people have told me that's actually not Renegade and is actually cute. But you know what I mean. (Though I think my Shepards were a bit tired out anyway, though it was, to borrow a phrase, 'totally worth it'.)
So how do you write a story about a Shepard that ... saved the Citadel and Liara, destroyed Virmire, and that's about all that's locked down? In retrospect, we might have been foolish to expect anything concrete to come from that. And I think that they might have written the lines in the comic so that you really can choose to make the interpretation you want to.
So this would be the conflict ... people like Nozy and sc (and apparently dink) go into the comic expecting the worst and not finding anything that contradicts their position. Les and Stubbs and admittedly, probably myself , go into the comic expecting the best and not finding anything that contradicts that. Though some on the positive side are annoyed that they don't find clear evidence to prove their side. And thus the two sides clash hardcore over what it means, when it probably CAN'T mean anything serious, or so the 'must fit all Shepards' dictum would seem to indicate.
In reality, though, I think I WOULD have geared the comic to those friendlier to Liara in their playthroughs, and taken the backlash from the Liara-haters, because let's face it... if they hate Liara, there aren't going to be too many that buy it, right? But that's fluff, because I'd hope I wouldn't do the damn comic in the first place. This belonged in exposition in the game, they should've finished it off, and used a decent blow-off to why Liara couldn't be on the ship. (Non-Liaramancers -- "I have to see exactly what SB was doing, I'm certain it indicates involvement by the Reapers' ... with us Liaramancers getting that PLUS "Really, Shepard... if I'm here, you know you have something to come back to, and I'll know that you'll come back to me." Or something incredibly sappy, the sappier the BETTER, and we'd have felt
:kissing::wub: and not even been too troubled with the Gameplay and Story Segregation issue. At least I wouldn't have. Your Mileage May Vary.)EDIT -- I was GOING to change the word after 'complete and total', to be clear... but from context you can guess it's a female dog (as opposed to Damien, my Warden's male dog).
FURTHER EDIT -- they really cut down the letters after 'utter'. But I actually like what it implies better.
Modifié par JaylaClark, 24 avril 2010 - 07:02 .
#20666
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 07:08
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
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Jayla, yeah I get what you're saying totally. In hindsight, we were wrong to go into Redemption expecting something massive, shocking, revealing and insightful regarding Liara's character. And like you said, really Liara's whole story should have been contained within the game, where it's easy to apply to each player's individual Shepard.
The writers of Redemption really did have their hands tied behind their backs, in terms of which "Shepard" they are dealing with and, I think most importantly, how each individual Shepard interacted with Liara. They had to write these comics to facilitate a Shepard who saved the Citadel Council and helped humanity and the Alliance gain the trust of the galactic community and integrate themselves amongst the other species, as well as Shepards who gave the order to allow the Destiny Ascension to be destroyed, and pushed for humanity to take over the galaxy and create the New Terran Empire. They had to write it so it could apply to Shepards who rescued Liara ASAP, and showed her all the love in the world and treated her like a dear, loving partner and soulmate, but they also had to acknowledge Shepards who picked up Liara dead last, acted like jerks to her and threatened to throw her back in the volcano. (
) When a writer is restricted in that manner, how is it going to be possible to achieve anything meaningful or worthwhile, in terms of characterisation of Liara and depiction of her thoughts, feelings and motives?
Like you said, this should have been included in-game to allow them to better fit Liara's story around an individual Shepard. And yes, I would have loved it if, for us Liarasexuals, she gave a very sappy and loving reason for staying off the Normandy. Would have made me want to smooch her right there!!
The writers of Redemption really did have their hands tied behind their backs, in terms of which "Shepard" they are dealing with and, I think most importantly, how each individual Shepard interacted with Liara. They had to write these comics to facilitate a Shepard who saved the Citadel Council and helped humanity and the Alliance gain the trust of the galactic community and integrate themselves amongst the other species, as well as Shepards who gave the order to allow the Destiny Ascension to be destroyed, and pushed for humanity to take over the galaxy and create the New Terran Empire. They had to write it so it could apply to Shepards who rescued Liara ASAP, and showed her all the love in the world and treated her like a dear, loving partner and soulmate, but they also had to acknowledge Shepards who picked up Liara dead last, acted like jerks to her and threatened to throw her back in the volcano. (
) When a writer is restricted in that manner, how is it going to be possible to achieve anything meaningful or worthwhile, in terms of characterisation of Liara and depiction of her thoughts, feelings and motives?Like you said, this should have been included in-game to allow them to better fit Liara's story around an individual Shepard. And yes, I would have loved it if, for us Liarasexuals, she gave a very sappy and loving reason for staying off the Normandy. Would have made me want to smooch her right there!!
#20667
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 07:10
bjdbwea
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kraidy1117 wrote...
I will laugh my ass off if ME2 gets the same treatment ESB got when ME3 comes out. Then it will shut-up people like you who moan just because a character is not in a video game.
Hardly. Here's a news flash: I don't care about how many people like something or don't. That's not something I build my opinion on. I find ME 2 to be a huge disappointment in comparison to ME 1, and there's nothing that ME 3 could even do to change that impression, short of including a patch that makes ME 2 what it should've been. Whereas ESB always was a fantastic movie, whatever the masses or snobbish critics may or may not have thought about it.
Modifié par bjdbwea, 24 avril 2010 - 07:11 .
#20668
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 07:18
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
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Sunnie22 wrote...
Need happy Liara!
I absolutely adore that part. I'm going to borrow ratz's description again, but the way Liara rolls over, props herself up on her arms, looks at Shepard and smiles before sitting up properly is so sweet, and it's like Liara is saying "Hello beautiful.":wub:
Just look at her face there!!
#20669
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 07:18
Sunnie
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Been a really long day, time for sleep. Night all! *hugs*
#20670
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 07:23
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
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Night Sunnie! Have pleasant dreams about Liara!
#20671
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 07:31
Sakhalin
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Sunnie22 wrote...
Need happy Liara!
:wub:
#20672
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 07:39
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
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I really like this picture, Liara's eyes and her smile is just beautiful here. So sweet!
#20673
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 08:02
Lord Coake
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Sunnie22 wrote...
More like recycled...jlb524 wrote...
I noticed Samara has the same idle animations as Liara did. I guess it's an asari thing.
Hey now, theres nothing wrong with Samara.
I was rather shocked with how Liara went in ME2, but I'll keep my personal jury out on the issue. Yeah, her actions are...not up to par, but who among us has never done something abysmally stupid for what we thought were good reasons?
Vanessa Shepard has reamined faithful and hopeful...okay, she did attempt to get closer to Samara, but was gracefully and gently set down, so it doesn't count.
#20674
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 08:06
Goodwood
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Liara T'Soni wrote...
Shepard,
I don't know if you'll ever see this letter, but it just had to be written.
As I write, the Cerberus agents are loading your coffin into their ship,
to what destination I can only speculate. They say they can rebuild
you, remake you into the woman you once were. Only time will tell if
this is just one of their schemes; I cannot imagine what they may try
to do to you, or if what they promise is even possible.
The Goddess was kind to me when She brought you into my life.
Before then, there was only the work; I was isolated, buried in the
past, focused on rooting out the mysteries of the Protheans and
those who came before. I spent my time elbow-deep in the dust of
civilizations, the tedium interrupted only occasionally by a new find,
or the appearance of pirates, mercenaries, or the occasional outlaw
archeologist. Then, suddenly, you sprang headfirst into my life, guns
blazing, willing to kill and die to save me from being dragged off to
who knew what fate Saren or my mother may have intended for me.
You opened your ship to me, made me a part of your crew, but it was
more than that. You didn't just probe me for information and cast me
aside, you extended an offer of friendship.
I considered myself barely more than a child, but you treated me as
an equal; what is more, you opened me to the wider galaxy. It was
through our hunt for Saren and the Conduit that you helped me piece
together the meaning of my life. You helped me to experience what it
meant to live in the present, instead of sifting through the leavings of
the ancient ones. And more importantly, you showed me how to fight
for the future of all. Even when I was at my lowest, after Benezia's
death, you were there for me, guiding me, helping me to remember
the woman she once was, a caring and devoted person. I knew that
I must know you, help you if I could, be there at your side no matter
what might occur. When the worst happened, and I was not by your
side, it nearly broke me. That was why I did what I did, why I nearly
threw away everything for this one last chance to prove how much
you meant to me. I loved...I love you. I can never let you go. I hope you
can forgive me for doing this; I remember how hard you fought to halt
the experiments being undertaken by Cerberus. Those memories are
omnipresent, haunting me, mocking me for what I have done.
If you survive, if they give you this second chance, I hope that you can
forgive me. I have no one else to seek solace with, no one else who is
capable of understanding what we went through.
Modifié par Goodwood, 24 avril 2010 - 08:08 .
#20675
Posté 24 avril 2010 - 08:20
OrbitalWings
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Well, after all of last night's debates and discussions, perhaps we need a new topic.
I'm busy beavering away on that drawing, but I wonder - if and when Liara returns as a squadmate in ME3, as we all hope, just how do you reckon she'll be introduced?
Will she just leave her office and go back to the Normandy? Or arrive in a blaze of glory?
Discuss
I'm busy beavering away on that drawing, but I wonder - if and when Liara returns as a squadmate in ME3, as we all hope, just how do you reckon she'll be introduced?
Will she just leave her office and go back to the Normandy? Or arrive in a blaze of glory?
Discuss
Modifié par Metal-Dragon-Kiryu, 24 avril 2010 - 08:23 .
